SEO, the conmans dream,...

[DavidRoss]

If you're operating an online business and you are not doing both SEO and PPC then you're leaving money on the table.

All anyone is looking for is a good ROI from any type of investment in your business...

Why not just pick an SEO company on your own terms?

Pick one who offers a positive ROI guarantee?
Pick one with a good reputation?
Pick one who can prove results before you pay?

How does anyone know if they are getting value from PPC? Postive ROI, it's the only indicator. SEO is no different.

Makes sense to educate yourself to some level before you buy anything - it's the only way you can be sure you're getting value and not getting ripped off.

 

[Page1SEOWriter]

Is this thread ywo camps taking sides

The SEO camp V the PPC Camp?

I ask as I do Organic SEO and could do with getting into contact with someone who I could refer people to for PPC which I dont do as I have no need to use PPC to get Page 1 Google SERPS as I just write my way there.

 

[DuaneJackson]

We're number one for most of our target phrases in the organics. But we still run PPC for them. Some people will look at the adverts first and if a competitor has a strong message then you're losing a sale. As someone above rightly said, if you don't do both then you're leaving money on the table.

I've used a few PPC firms, most of them not up to much. About a year ago I found one that I can confidentally call the dogs wotsits and happily recommend them : www.gillissa.co.uk. I still use them and it's who I always refer my clients to.

 

Na SEO is not worth the paper its written on,money down the drain in most cases,all a load of tongue tied wordsmiths IMHO.

Earl

 

[Page1SEOWriter]

We're number one for most of our target phrases in the organics. But we still run PPC for them. Some people will look at the adverts first and if a competitor has a strong message then you're losing a sale. As someone above rightly said, if you don't do both then you're leaving money on the table.

I've used a few PPC firms, most of them not up to much. About a year ago I found one that I can confidentally call the dogs wotsits and happily recommend them :gilissa I still use them and it's who I always refer my clients to.

Thank you for that link Duane

I will check them out as I really need a trustworthy PPC partner to compliment my SEO writing as mentioned above some want both and some need both which I will need to offer on the web-consultant-seo site in my sig.

BTW interesting domains you have for sale.

If only I could convince Peter Jones of peterjones.tv that I can become the SEO writer of 2008 they would be perfect for an idea I have for a TV show to train the SEO of 2010 "Big Brother" crossed with "The Apprentice" style.

Hey I did say in my intro I am a somewhat unorthodox poster with a sense of humour many do not get.

 

Hey I did say in my intro I am a somewhat unorthodox poster with a sense of humour many do not get.

Do you think you could get me No1 for" I am a cuddly teddy bear but I only got one eye"

Earl

 

[guylevine]

As an owner of an SEO company, we have to do what other companies do in other industries, research and develop! We employ people who test our theories to see if they work or not. If they do, we use them with our clients, if not, we don't. Other companies have been doing this for years!

With regards to SEO v. PPC, I would worry about an SEO company who does not run a quick ppc campaign first to see if they keywords they optimise for actually convert!

Guy Levine
CEO - Web Marketing Advisor

 

As an owner of an SEO company, we have to do what other companies do in other industries, research and develop! We employ people who test our theories to see if they work or not. If they do, we use them with our clients, if not, we don’t. Other companies have been doing this for years!

With regards to SEO v. PPC, I would worry about an SEO company who does not run a quick ppc campaign first to see if they keywords they optimise for actually convert!

Guy Levine
CEO - Web Marketing Advisor

There is one slight problem with running a PPC campaign to evauate conversion rates,one is very limited in ones presentation of your product compared with an organic listing,which if you have sitelinks can run to the first 4 positions on a search engine for 1 site.

There are far more effective ways to evaluate conversion rates than PPC.

Earl

 

[I, Brian]

To be honest I think the whole SEO vs PPC argument is daft - they are both valid marketing channels when used correctly.

There are cowboys across all internet industries, but I think that invalidates the cowboys, not the industries themselves.

With regards to SEO v. PPC, I would worry about an SEO company who does not run a quick ppc campaign first to see if they keywords they optimise for actually convert!

A lot of clients will turn to SEO to reduce PPC costs, so they already know exactly what keywords convert for them - they just need the organic presence.

It's also been noted in studies that a company with strong SEO and PPC listings in a Google keyword search will see CTR rise significantly because of the strong brand message control of both provides.

2c.

 

[Steve2507]

To be honest I think the whole SEO vs PPC argument is daft - they are both valid marketing channels when used correctly.

Excellent point, I think people get mixed up between the two and many marketing companies believe that you can't do SEM without PPC but wont look at onsite optimisation (mainly because they don't know how but wont admit it). However marketing using just SEO is perfectly feasible (we've been doing it for the past 5 years).

A lot of clients will turn to SEO to reduce PPC costs, so they already know exactly what keywords convert for them - they just need the organic presence.

You can also do it the other way round if you have the time. We have been using organic SEO for 5 years and know the search terms people use that convert, so now we are using these search terms in PPC.

And I don't think it's fair to blame SEOs for the state of the industry - yeh, the cowboys should take a lot of the blame, but the DIY / "SEO is easy" crowd aren't without blame. When I worked with a large agency, the jobs I had to "fix" SEO work were split evenly between poor "professional" work and poor DIY / amatuer work.

Sorry but it is perfectly fair to blame SEO'ers for the state of the industry both "professional" and DIY. The problem is you get "professional" SEO'ers that only know how to do 1 or 2 parts of SEO.

We've had quotes for "complete SEO work" where the only work they do is build links, or write articles, or write descriptions for products. I have never found an SEO company that will do the complete package. What I mean by this is a company that will look at:

• product descriptions for SEO
• the profit margins for products to decide on which to optimise first
• link exchange (two way
• link baiting (articles etc)
• social bookmarking
• myspace, facebook et al
• image names
• page name
• reducing page sizes (my research has found this aids in SEO)
• plus loads more

So to get the job done properly you may have to go to more than one company. These companies then contradict each other.

You mention that you had to fix problem created. How do you know that you fixed the problem or made it worse? All you have to go on is rumour and experience, there are no guaranteed methods as none of us know the algorithms used by G, Y, MSN et al. The previous guy may have done things exactly how he was lead to believe they should be done. This is where the "professional" SEO'ers shoot themselves in the foot. They say "this is the way to do it" when in reality they should be saying "this is the way we think you do it, but as with all SEO work it is just educated guessing". As a customer how the hell are we supposed to know when you have numerous "professional" SEO'ers saying different things? Which one is correct?

The same can be said for the "DIY/amateur work", how do you know (100%) that what they did was wrong? Answer - you don't. The DIY'er can have a lot of experience, get different results from their research than that of the "professional" but still get better results.

I am currently running an experiment which I have been told by a couple of "professional" is a load of "b***l***s" (that was a direct quote form a company that I was in discussions with for PPC work). The experiment is based on page size. I believe that page size has a bearing on results, whereby loads of gaps and empty lines in the code can have a negative affect. My reasoning for this is that if you look at G pages they are very compressed and have virtually no line breaks, G has the attitude that what they say is right is the right way to do it. So by reducing line breaks and removing comments in the code I belive it will help SEO. So far I have had success with it, but who knows. My point is a "professional" won't look at outlandish ideas as "it doesn't work" but again a DIY'er can easily prove a "professional" wrong.

I honestly believe there is no such thing as a "professional" SEO'er or a DIY'er, the only difference between the two is that the "professional" gets paid to do it as a job for someone else, whereas the DIY'er does it to help their own business or hobby site. They ar both working from the same "hymn sheet" that is filled with rumour, speculation, red herrings, and downright lies.

Sorry for the bit of a rant, but the arguement saying professionals are better than DIY'ers really p****s me of.

 

[mattsaw]

• product descriptions for SEO
• the profit margins for products to decide on which to optimise first
• link exchange (two way
• link baiting (articles etc)
• social bookmarking
• myspace, facebook et al
• image names
• page name
• reducing page sizes (my research has found this aids in SEO)
• plus loads more

To be fair I know lots of companies that would only be too happy to do all of that specified work - but as it's extremely time intensive you would be paying a premium for it.

 

[Steve2507]

To be fair I know lots of companies that would only be too happy to do all of that specified work - but as it's extremely time intensive you would be paying a premium for it.

I'm not saying there aren't companies out there, but all the ones I ever contact I never put forward my own ideas, I wan't feedback from them. Then when they don't mention they do something I say that I have heard so and so is good, that is when they come back with we don't do that or that is of no use etc.

The point of my message was to say that I honestly believe there is no such thing as a "professional" SEO'er or a DIY'er, the only difference between the two is that the "professional" gets paid to do it as a job for someone else, whereas the DIY'er does it to help their own business or hobby site. They ar both working from the same "hymn sheet" that is filled with rumour, speculation, red herrings, and downright lies.

 

[pws1970]

Interesting thread this : My opinion there is a jump between the professional and the diyer.... concentrating on 1 niche market is one thing ... understanding what works across a multitude of various niches to get results quickly on the table for the client is another.

 

[I, Brian]

• product descriptions for SEO
• the profit margins for products to decide on which to optimise first
• link exchange (two way
• link baiting (articles etc)
• social bookmarking
• myspace, facebook et al
• image names
• page name
• reducing page sizes (my research has found this aids in SEO)
• plus loads more

You're quite right - most SEO companies are usually specialised into different areas, such as:

- copy writing
- on-page SEO
- link building
- viral/SMO
- keyword research/analytics

plus then the cross over into search marketing (PPC) and general internet marketing.

Many companies - even reputable ones - will usually claim to offer multiple services beyond their actual capabilities.

I specialise in link building and turn away non-link building enquiries (a couple of people on UKBF are recommended instead ), but I often compete on Google against massive SEO companies which offer FTSE 250 companies "link building" but do nothing but clumsy link buying that even gets them banned.

I work alongside a number of SEO companies on the same client - heck, I'm now doing FTSE 250 work myself as a subcontractor on projects managed by brand-name SEO companies.

Point is, as raised, realise that SEO covers many niches, and many SEO companies are specialists in one niche, but not the whole range.

 

[scoota]

I been paying out for seo work for 2 Years. I have had several companies doing work and although i am now getting decent rankings they aren`t as good as they could be.
My only problem is i cant find a good SEO person that i can afford. I can find thousands that i wouldn`t pay in washers. Ther is no in-between they are either brilliant or walty mitty characters. I have now stopped all seo on site work and am concentrating on article writing and blogging. I am having this work done in Phucket by a westerner who runs the equivalant of a sweat shop. Ask me if i`m bothered. No No No

 

[Page1SEOWriter]

I been paying out for seo work for 2 Years. I have had several companies doing work and although i am now getting decent rankings they aren`t as good as they could be.
My only problem is i cant find a good SEO person that i can afford. I can find thousands that i wouldn`t pay in washers. Ther is no in-between they are either brilliant or walty mitty characters. I have now stopped all seo on site work and am concentrating on article writing and blogging. I am having this work done in Phucket by a westerner who runs the equivalant of a sweat shop. Ask me if i`m bothered. No No No

Yeah Phucket eh!

Nine times out of ten you get what you pay for in SEO

I agree with iBrian, I don't personally do link building but do on page SEO and SEO copywriting as well as which I have no clue about how to do PPC myself as have never had need to use it due to page 1 organic SERPS, so would work with others on such things if and when I knew they could cut the mustard and not ruin my rep.

Not all SEO's are con merchants, it's just 80 to 90% that are and are dishonest as they do other things but feel and know they need to also offer SEO to be credible.

 

[Codefixer]

Having worked on a number of websites in different markets I believe SEO works and can provide a great return on investment.

The argument that SEO guys are more untrustworthy than anyone else in business is a tired message.

If there were forums related to accountancy services, solicitor services, dental practices etc then I'm sure they would be populated and littered with disgruntled customers and complaints.

For example a few years ago a dentist just out of college worked on my teeth, and made a complete balls up. Does that mean an inexperienced dentist should undermine the quality of work that others provide? Nope, but it does mean next time I go for dental work I'll seek out a dentist
that has experience, good client testimonials, referrals etc. The more complex the job, the more I'll look around for someone with relevant experience.

I believe that customers need to be more diligent when it comes to hiring SEOs, just like they would be before entering into any contract.

There are many many reasons why SEO doesn't work on sites including:


Lack of market experience on the SEO's behalf
Lack of budget
Lack of cross platform web development skills
Lack of co-operation
No overall strategy
Clients ignoring advice and poor implementation
Lack of skills in a particular facet of SEO

The reasons why SEO fails is not always the fault of the SEO. Amongst other things clients can have over optimistic expectations.

I'd agree that there are many SEO's that don't have the necessary experience to work in many areas that they cover. They don't understand the market and the degree of difficulty of promoting in that market.

If I was to give advice I was say look for an SEO that has a proven track reckon in your market and other markets.

One of the dangers is that an SEO over commits themselves, having worked on their own site with which they have a natural passion
and drive to succeed they then believe they can SEO any site, set themselves up as an all conquering SEO and take on a job within a different market that they don't understand or have knowlege of. SEO isn't a one fits all markets.

The debate between whether SEO and PPC is fruitless, if it works for your site then harness both. SEO and PPC are not competing marketing strategies, they can be part of an overall internet marketing strategy and can work very well together, both providing goldmines of information that can be used in both tracks.

 

[Tin]

Scoota might take a while to reply as the thread is 2 years old and the last time he was on the forum is almost a year ago.

 

[barrysummers]

i may be biased here but as with every business you get good seo companies and bad ones. i do agree that its the legwork on links that makes the big difference. it is not all about technical stuff though that helps. doing the nasty things that take time and are boring and having knowloedge on top of that is the key. i can honestly say that we provide benefit to everyone of our clients and each has a positive return on their investment some more than 100 fold. we have no.1 positions for 4 million a month search terms. pick the right company and you will see seo works pick one that reads seo for dummies and you will get no benefit.