SEO & Bull$hit

[bdw]

All plumbing work has to be done according to Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999. All electrical work has to be done according to Part P of the building regulations.

You may think so but the plumbers and electricians would appear to have some concerns about the lack of legislation.

I actually know unqualified people who are self employed and who do electrical and plumbing work. I am not making this up. Four years ago I had a guy fit my new bathroom. He is not a qualified plumber and he was quite open about this. He did a far better job than the original installation, which was done by "real" plumbers. I was told about this guy and I employed him based on references. He did a great job, so good in fact that I got him back again to do my downstairs toilet.

I also had a new kitchen fitted and the guy who did it installed the electrics. He was a joiner! So don't kid yourself that this does not happen. It happens in all the trades I mentioned above as well as SEO.

My point is that this is not unusual. There are unethical contractors all over the place using unskilled labour where they shouldn't be, just as there is no shortage of unethical SEO'ers. I would say that the company mentioned in the OP was acting more ethically than most.

.

 

[kulture]

Yes, there are cowboy plumbers, cowboy electricians, and cowboy SEO . The difference is the plumbers and electricians have broken the law and the SEO has broken google's guidelines. There is a difference between breaking the law and breaking google's guidelines, despite what has been implied on this thread.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

If you care about your work and want to build decent, professional businesses that customers can trust; form an industry association, get some codes of best practice together

What good SEO has time to do that?

Surely the good ones are too busy with clients (and don't need some badge in order to be decent and professional) to have time to set up industry associations.

So who would be the ones giving out the accreditations?

I'd say it's the ones who need a badge in order to get clients.

Steve

 

[cjd]

What good SEO has time to do that?

All of them, because good ones are interested in having a sustainable future and working in a trustworthy industry.

So who would be the ones giving out the accreditations?

Its members, like all trade organisation.

I'd say it's the ones who need a badge in order to get clients.

Well we've already heard that there's no way for a client to know how to pick a good, honest SEO without being an SEO expert themselves. So how does this 'profession' regain the confidence of the thousands of companies that have just been stuffed by the practices of previously 'good' SEO firms?

Until the SEO practitioners clean up their game and start behaving like responsible, professional people, their reputation as cowboys selling snake oil remedies is only going to worsen.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

All of them, because good ones are interested in having a sustainable future

Surely SEO is a sustainable industry. For as long as there are "organic" listings on the most popular search engine (which should be for a very long time), there will be £ value to being on page 1... which means there will be people willing to pay to be there.

And an SEO who can get results will be in demand. And, if for some reason they weren't, they could just set up their own sites and make money that way.

and working in a trustworthy industry

If I were an SEO, I'm not sure I would care about that.

I certainly wouldn't care enough to be willing to share my methods with a bunch of less competent competitors.

Its members, like all trade organisation.

Surely it's organisations that give out accreditations, not the members. For example, to don't get a Gas Safe accreditation from another plumber.

Which means you need some people who don't actually do the work, but evaluate people's ability to do the work.

And who will these people be?

It's normally the people who can't do the work, so they get into the politics of the industry instead.

Well we've already heard that there's no way for a client to know how to pick a good, honest SEO without being an SEO expert themselves. So how does this 'profession' regain the confidence of the thousands of companies that have just been stuffed by the practices of previously 'good' SEO firms?

That's a good question - but it's only a question for those that are short of clients.

IMO, SEO is always going to be buying a pig in a poke, but it's a risk many companies are keen to take.

Until the SEO practicioners clean up their game and start behaving like resonsible, professional people

What would "responsible" and "professional" look like?

Given that most SEO is an attempt to deceive google, methods are always (a) going to be opaque and, (b) going to have a shelf life.

If you can't remove these things from the industry, then what other problems exist? (Other than out-and-out theft of client money by some cowboys.)

Steve

 

[bdw]

Given that most SEO is an attempt to deceive google, methods are always (a) going to be opaque and, (b) going to have a shelf life.

This is correct.

We are not talking about the Institute of Engineering and Technology Wiring Regulations here. How do you define and regulate best practices many of which are a matter of unconfirmable opinion? How do you regulate and control practices using something (Google's Algo) when you are not privy to the detail and science behind its functioning? How do you define a best practice that can be be negated at any time by a party over which you have no control?

The point you are missing is that other trade and professional associations have the power to make the rules for the members.


.

 

[cjd]

Surely SEO is a sustainable industry. For as long as there are "organic" listings on the most popular search engine (which should be for a very long time), there will be £ value to being on page 1... which means there will be people willing to pay to be there.

Sure, just like there will always be crime.

And an SEO who can get results will be in demand. And, if for some reason they weren't, they could just set up their own sites and make money that way.

Just like a criminal. Until caught.

If I were an SEO, I'm not sure I would care about that.

Which is my point.

Surely it's organisations that give out accreditations, not the members. For example, to don't get a Gas Safe accreditation from another plumber.

No. Trade associations are made up of and run by the members. That's the point of them.

Which means you need some people who don't actually do the work, but evaluate people's ability to do the work.
It's normally the people who can't do the work, so they get into the politics of the industry instead.

No, that's just wrong I'm afraid. Trade associations are run by practitioners of the trade. For example, I'm a board member for my trade association. I give up my time to manage it.

IMO, SEO is always going to be buying a pig in a poke, but it's a risk many companies are keen to take.

I agree. So the people that work in the SEO industry are always going to be selling snake oil and are never going to create a professional organisation to promote and encourage honest practices.

So once bitten, twice shy - eventually, no-one will use SEO comapnies.

 

[RadiusBPO]

So once bitten, twice shy - eventually, no-one will use SEO comapnies.

And all us lead gen and affiliates will make even more money...

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Sure, just like there will always be crime.

I don't think you should be equating SEO to crime... given this thread is about your experience of hiring SEOs.

Just like a criminal. Until caught.

"Caught"? Doing what? Doing SEO? The thing that you have explicitly stated your company does in-house?

As I said, I don't think you should be using the "crime" metaphor.

No. Trade associations are made up of and run by the members. That's the point of them.

So the guy who manages a plumbing trade organisation also spends much of his time fixing leaking pipes?

No, that's just wrong I'm afraid. Trade associations are run by practitioners of the trade.

See question above.

For example, I'm a board member for my trade association. I give up my time to manage it.

You're in an industry where you're not selling your time. SEOs are.

I can see, for example, a situation where big SEO agencies create a trade organisation in order to (a) give their agencies more credibility and (b) to undermine the competition.

(Like the drug companies used the AMA to squeeze out non-drug healing in the USA in the 19th century.)

But that organisation won't be managed by actual SEOs (more like agency bosses and they lackeys). And I very much doubt it would do anything to improve the quality of SEO work.

and are never going to create a professional organisation to promote and encourage honest practices.

What would you regard as an honest practice?

As I said, most SEO is about trying to trick google into thinking a link is a unilateral "vote" for a web page.

To then claim that this process - the process of tricking google - lacks "honesty" seems a bit much.

So once bitten, twice shy - eventually, no-one will use SEO comapnies.

They've been using SEO companies for years. Yet the SEO industry isn't any less honest today than it was 3 years ago.

What might happen is, as the bar is raised higher and higher, the best SEOs will get paid higher and higher fees.

But SEO itself isn't going away any time soon.

Steve

 

[Esk247]

Steve

They've been using SEO companies for years. Yet the SEO industry isn't any less honest today than it was 3 years ago.

It isn't? Jesus on a Moped!

As I said, most SEO is about trying to trick google into thinking a link is a unilateral "vote" for a web page.

There was me assuming that we didn't have to trick Google in to thinking anything, just highlight the relevant points that the users of Google will be searching for.

So what would the SEO/PPC people suggest then? Considering there are so many unhappy people who come to these and other forums saying they've been ripped off.

I haven't been ripped off, i've been quoted and then i laughed and then i put the phone down.

£2000 per month for 3 months for analysis...PAH!..so i spend £6k and get a bit of paper with squiggly lines on, not even a face to face meeting with the snake oil sales man himself. Brilliant. It's the best con going!


P.S. I believe SEO does work, i just don't trust anyone who shoves an invoice in front of me before they've even got out of their Spiderman duvet on a Monday morning at 11am.

 

[RadiusBPO]

P.S. I believe SEO does work, i just don't trust anyone who shoves an invoice in front of me before they've even got out of their Spiderman duvet on a Monday morning at 11am.

I must ask, why are you convinced everyone works from their bedrooms??

 

[Esk247]

I must ask, why are you convinced everyone works from their bedrooms??

I'm not i'm half trolling and half asking the questions that concern me about SEO.

It just seems such a cloak and dagger affair. If i'm handing out hundreds of pounds from my company then i at least expect one face to face meeting, in an office, so you (not you personally) can explain to me how we are going to do it, what i need to do, what the plan is and some timescales for targets so we can measure if it is working or not.

Unfortunately, few SEOs seem to be able to do that. They prefer just doing it over the phone, lets not meet up, lets not go to the SEOs office lets just put this £1000 in an envelope and leave it under a park bench in Birmingham.

 

[cjd]

Everybody is selling their time Steve. Even plumbers have a trade association

The trade body for quality plumbing and heating contractors

The Association of Plumbing and Heating Contractors (APHC) is the trade body for the plumbing and heating industry in England and Wales. We represent large companies working on commercial projects, to sole traders working in domestic properties.
We are committed to helping plumbing and heating contractors run professional and profitable businesses, whilst ensuring consumers have better standards of workmanship and service.

http://www.aphc.co.uk/member_login.asp

What you are saying is that SEO can not define its working practices, can't create standards, can't work with others to make a reputable industry that can be trusted by less knowledgeable clients, can't insure against malpractice, can't protect customers, can't promote itself professionally, can't lobby for it's interests, can't award best practice etc etc

In other words, it's not a profession by any measure that matters. It's a bunch of self-interested cowboys exploiting soon to be closed loopholes in a mathematical algorithm. Good luck with the marketing of that.

 

[RedEvo]

I think it's fair to say most industries have their share of cowboys. I don't however think everyone in an industry deserves to be labelled a cowboy just because some people are in the business of conning people. That wouldn't be fair because not all businesses in an industry rip people off. There are good and bad.

d

 

[Chunkford]

You do know there are already so called "trade associations" connected to the SEO industry and alike?

 

[MLBMarketing]

Google rolled out an update on the 19th(?) or 23rd cant remember when exactly, like it has been all year.

It killed one of the biggest and most successful link generation networks, buildmyrank.com.

I bet a lot of "SEO" companies went under in the process.

ANY 'link building' done that doesn't involve the client is automated.
If it's automated then it's against googles policies.
Not caring about how your company is marketed on google via links is like saying to a PR agency, yeh do what you want as long as it works, then when you find out they've been cold calling people, knocking on doors etc and given you a bad name, who's to blame? Same principle.

All link building should be as a secondary result of solid online and offline marketing campaigns, get with the times!

 

[terryuk]

Unfortunately, few SEOs seem to be able to do that. They prefer just doing it over the phone, lets not meet up, lets not go to the SEOs office lets just put this £1000 in an envelope and leave it under a park bench in Birmingham.

And vice versa some clients prefer to do it this way too.

I've seen a few black top hats walking around Birmingham lately, it did make me wonder

 

[UKSBD]

A lot of SEO now is 10% optimising 90% smooth talking salesman churning out 6 month contracts and moving on to next sucker.

 

[terryuk]

A lot of SEO now is 10% optimising 90% smooth talking salesman churning out 6 month contracts and moving on to next sucker.

A like with most marketing/advertising companies, they sell hard and I am unsure of the rest.

 

Blimey I would have thought an SEO was one of the easier professions to check up on.

I mean the good ones will be all over google.

Earl

 

[bdw]

I mean the good ones will be all over google.

The good ones will be making money for themselves.

.

 

[RadiusBPO]

Blimey I would have thought an SEO was one of the easier professions to check up on.

I mean the good ones will be all over google.

Earl

This was the OPs problem. Their SEO was a good SEO and had recommendations from previous clients, but they didn't weather the storm.

 

[Chunkford]

What is the reason for having an association for a given industry?

I don't get it really, all that happens is you end up having an executive club of paying members who get jolly over a cup of tea while shaking each others hands saying how good each one is.
Nothing constructive comes from it apart from maybe a fancy awards ceremony for the exclusive members who have paid their way in. The average business doesn't even get a look in and TBH doesn't show a true representation of an industry as it boils down to who's donated the most money and who's brown nose the most between peers. Even with these awards that are given out, it's not a fair contest as it comes down to the select few who have paid to be members and who can push their customers into voting the most.

 

[RadiusBPO]

What is the reason for having an association for a given industry?

I don't get it really, all that happens is you end up having an executive club of paying members who get jolly over a cup of tea while shaking each others hands saying how good each one is.
Nothing constructive comes from it apart from maybe a fancy awards ceremony for the exclusive members who have paid their way in. The average business doesn't even get a look in and TBH doesn't show a true representation of an industry as it boils down to who's donated the most money and who's brown nose the most between peers. Even with these awards that are given out, it's not a fair contest as it comes down to the select few who have paid to be members and who can push their customers into voting the most.

Sounds like these cowboys - http://claimscouncil.org/

 

This was the OPs problem. Their SEO was a good SEO and had recommendations from previous clients, but they didn't weather the storm.

So the problem is simply finding another good SEO.

Companies go broke everyday or decide to cease trading.

Earl

 

[terryuk]

What is the reason for having an association for a given industry?

I don't get it really, all that happens is you end up having an executive club of paying members who get jolly over a cup of tea while shaking each others hands saying how good each one is.
Nothing constructive comes from it apart from maybe a fancy awards ceremony for the exclusive members who have paid their way in. The average business doesn't even get a look in and TBH doesn't show a true representation of an industry as it boils down to who's donated the most money and who's brown nose the most between peers. Even with these awards that are given out, it's not a fair contest as it comes down to the select few who have paid to be members and who can push their customers into voting the most.

The 'round knight table' but my guess is that the SEO association would have the wrong people in to be real elite And right drink tea and eat cupcakes

 

[bdw]

I think it's fair to say most industries have their share of cowboys. I don't however think everyone in an industry deserves to be labelled a cowboy just because some people are in the business of conning people. That wouldn't be fair because not all businesses in an industry rip people off. There are good and bad.

I think you saved a few more of us some research time with that one Dave.

.

 

[cjd]

I think you saved a few more of us some research time with that one Dave.

Here's the member list. Find me a cowboy

http://www.itspa.org.uk/members.html

The point of a trade association is to give potential customers some confidence that they're not dealing with a cowboy.

 

[Chunkford]

Here's the member list. Find me a cowboy

some might say BT

 

[RedEvo]

I think you saved a few more of us some research time with that one Dave.

.

Not that hard. The telecoms industry has more snake oil salesman than any industry I've ever encountered. They also obfuscate their charges and services and telecoms services are regularly pulled up on Watchdog and the like.

Mind you, they've only had 136 years to get their house in order, it's early days.

The SEO industry has its share of rogues but we don't need a lesson in ethics from the telecoms industry.

Anyway, enough of this, I've got some clients to rip off.

d

 

[cjd]

Anyway, enough of this, I've got some clients to rip off.

Well yes, that's probably the normal response, pretend there isn't a problem and look after your own business.

I wish you luck with the next mug.

 

[RedEvo]

He can dish it out but......well you know the rest....

d

 

[cjd]

He can dish it out but......well you know the rest....

d

The telecoms industry is more polluted with devious and near (and actual) criminal behaviour than any - that's why we formed an association to at least attempt to limit the activities of the unscrupulous and give customers somewhere to go with complaints, get advice and find a reputable providers.

That's what a responsible industry tries to do.

But you're a busy chap, no need to worry about this stuff.

 

[bdw]

Some of your corporate members do not seem to get on very well with each other.

.

 

[cjd]

Some of your corporate members do not seem to get on very well with each other.

.

Well what a surprise, some companies want better wholesale prices from BT.

 

[RedEvo]

I accept SEO has it's fair share of rogues, there's no question about that, but given the length of time the comms industry has been around and it's only just getting round getting its house in order I believe it's rich to suggest a brand new and developing industry like SEO should already have been standardised.

The IT industry is only just getting it's house in order and it's been around for over 40 years. Other 'professions' have lamentable standardisation and regulation. These things don't happen overnight.

In the end you were left with a nasty taste in your mouth by an SEO company who didn't deliver and that's a shame and a bad reflection on search marketers generally. However, the tirade of abuse you've liberally heaped on anyone who happens to work with businesses to help them get more from their website is, in my view, beyond the pale.

d

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Everybody is selling their time Steve. Even plumbers have a trade association

Yes, and as I said, I bet the people managing it aren't spending the rest of their time fixing pipes.

So, given I've already made this point - and you've added no new points on it - why are we going round the houses on it?

What you are saying is that SEO can not define its working practices

Are you assuming all SEOs work the same way?

can't create standards

And what would those standards be?

I asked "what would "responsible" and "professional" look like?" - and am still waiting for an answer.

can't work with others to make a reputable industry that can be trusted by less knowledgeable clients

I said they're not incentivised to. If you're an SEO with a full book of clients, do you really want to turn away clients in order to do unpaid work to form a regulatory body?

can't insure against malpractice, can't protect customers

If you want to insist on contracts with guarantees, insist on contracts with guarantees.

can't promote itself professionally

Who can't? You're talking about "SEO" as though it's a group of people.

And, for the 3rd time, what do you mean by "professional"?

You keep using that word, but ignore requests to define what it would mean in the SEO industry.

can't lobby for it's interests

Lobby? You mean get in bed with politicians for its own self-serving reasons?

Good.

can't award best practice etc etc

Award to whom? And from whom?

The only awards in SEO are rankings and profits.

It's a bunch of self-interested cowboys exploiting soon to be closed loopholes in a mathematical algorithm.

So why did you hire an SEO company?

Wasn't it because you wanted to exploit these very same loopholes?

Good luck with the marketing of that.

They seem to have marketed it very effectively to you.

Steve

 

[directmarketingadvice]

What is the reason for having an association for a given industry?

It varies, but it can be to give yourself a lot of credibility and, by doing that, take away credibility from the competition.

So, for example, if there was an SEO Association, it would probably be made up of big agencies who would work to have their way of working as seen as the only reputable way of doing SEO.

Would it improve SEO? Or just restrict choice and increase fees?

I'd say the latter.

Steve

 

Bit confused apparently the OP had a good SEO company that said they could not achieve there goals.

Very honest and something I would most certainly say .

So why all the bitterness towards the whole SEO world.?:|

Earl

 

[luckystrike23]

they say google is not evil - i think they are evil - they will let your competitors abuse their algorithms and when you see your competitors flying to the top you have no choice than to try to copy your competitors' tactics and then voila you get a penalty