Returns and refunds

[Jaimeweb]

Hi
not sure if this is the right place for this.

I’m thinking of opening an online store which sells children’s toys which I will be having manufactured.
I want to know that if someone buys something from my online store and open the item, box, packaging and “sets up” the product…then decides they want to return it within 14 days am I obliged to give them a refund by law?

And, as a counter question to this, if I’m not obligated to give a refund for something they simply don’t want anymore and have opened packaging etc…if the item was faulty can I offer them an exchange only, and not a refund….just thinking someone could easily see damage the product to get a refund.


Thanks

 

[DontAsk]

Yes, you must refund them if they request. You must also refund the original postage, unless you make clear in your Ts & Cs that the customer is liable for that.

 

[Jaimeweb]

Hmm but here

Accepting returns and giving refunds: the law

When you do and do not have to offer a refund, repair or replacement, unconditional refunds for online purchases, and penalties for deceiving customers

www.gov.uk

It’s not 100% clear…

​

When you do not have to offer a refund​

• no longer want an item (for example because it’s the wrong size or colour) unless they bought it without seeing it

“Brought without seeing it” does this mean in person seen it out the packaging, or literally not seeing it in person or as image on a website.
So can someone seeing images of the product on our website class as “they’ve seen it”?


Next:

Online, mail and phone order sales​

This just talks about ‘cancelling an order’ is that different to asking for a refund after opening and setting the product up in their home?

To me, cancel means cancel the order if it’s been dispatched or yet to be dispatched and it’s unopened.

Any advice?

 

[DontAsk]

It's known as "distance selling", see https://www.gov.uk/online-and-distance-selling-for-businesses. It doesn't matter how good the images, or descriptions, are on your website, it is bought "without seeing it".

 

[Jaimeweb]

Ok. So for example I can buy a vacpacked product in nice packaging etc. open it all. And then send it back for a refund. Even though it’s not ‘as new’ anymore.

 

[fisicx]

Yes. It’s why most online retailers build returns into their costs. I recall to a thread a while back (children’s clothing) where returns were about 45% of all sales.

 

[japancool]

The customer can legally cancel the order for whatever reason within 14 days of receiving it. You must give them a refund within a reasonable time.

However, you can make some deduction if the customer has handled the product more than is reasonable, for example by setting it up.

How much that deduction is has to be reasonable (there's that word again).

If the product is faulty, you must offer a full refund - including postage costs. If they've just changed their mind, who covers the return depends on your terms & conditions.

 

[Newchodge]

Imagine someone buying something with a view to it sitting in a specific space, Until they set it up they cannot tell that it is a fraction of a milimeter too big for the space. So they can return it.

If it is faulty in any way you MUST give a refund.

 

[LPB 123]

I want to know that if someone buys something from my online store and open the item, box, packaging and “sets up” the product…then decides they want to return it within 14 days am I obliged to give them a refund by law?

Yes.

if the item was faulty can I offer them an exchange only, and not a refund….just thinking someone could easily see damage the product to get a refund.

Within 30 days, you must refund if they request it because it's faulty. After 30 days you can offer an exchange or repair.

 

[WaveJumper]

And please if your selling toys do make sure they meet all the current UK regulations, don't just rely on what (and I am guessing) your importer tells you

 

[Jaimeweb]

And please if your selling toys do make sure they meet all the current UK regulations, don't just rely on what (and I am guessing) your importer tells you

Yes. I’ve had them tested to meet EN71 and CE UKCA

 

[Jaimeweb]

Another question, sorry.
So if we determine that the product has been used, for example a colouring book and it’s been drawn in…where do we stand with that. Do we have to offer a refund?

Something that’s clearly been used, and then returned within 14 days. What about that scenario.

 

[fisicx]

All depends on what is in your terms. And how belligerent the customer wants to be.

Maybe don’t sell items that can be written in. Reduce the chances of returns.

 

[Jaimeweb]

I’m after the LAW though…am I entitled to decline the refund if the items clearly been used.

 

[LPB 123]

I’m after the LAW though…am I entitled to decline the refund if the items clearly been used.

Yes, you can decline if its been used in that way, however the customer still has options if they want to force the refund.

They can open a chargeback or PayPal case etc that can still side with them. You usually just have to suck these up. Generally customers won't do this, but it definitely can happen.

 

[japancool]

Something that’s clearly been used, and then returned within 14 days. What about that scenario.

As I explained to you earlier - you must offer a refund, but you can make a deduction if the item has been used. If the item is totally unusable, the deduction can be up to the total value.

See section 34.9 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations:

The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013

These Regulations implement most provisions of Directive 2011/83/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 25 October 2011 on consumer rights, amending Council Directive 93/13/EEC and Directive 1999/44/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council and repealing Council Directive...

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[cjd]

• Cancellation rights - A business must provide a cancellation form and say if the business will provide a substitute if the product or service is not available and the cost of returns (if any) if the consumer returns goods. Customers must be told they can cancel their order up to 14 days after their order is delivered and your business must refund the purchase price within 14 days of your business receiving the goods back or getting evidence that the consumer has posted the goods to you, whichever is sooner. If a customer isn’t told about their right to cancel, they can cancel the contract at any time in the next 12 months but if your business informs them about the right to cancel during the 12 months, they have 14 days to cancel the contract from when they were told about their rights. A deduction from the value of the goods can be made if you consider the customer has handled the goods excessively. You can’t deduct monies if the goods have been removed from the packaging or tried on as distance-selling purchasers are entitled to handle goods in the same way they would in a retail store. If a buyer decides to cancel a purchase because they’ve changed their mind, a business can charge for the cost of the return if this cost was stipulated in the pre-contract information. If the goods are faulty, your business must pay for the costs of returning the item and refund the cost of the original delivery at the basic rate.

You're on a hiding to nothing though. Most customers would argue about this and you'd probably get pasted on social media.

 

[fisicx]

Customer buys the colouring book. Child scribbles on one page and never touches it again. Customer complains that the pages fell out and demands a refund. You refuse, they post on social media, your business takes a nosedive.

That’s what happens whatever the law says.

 

[Mr D]

I’m after the LAW though…am I entitled to decline the refund if the items clearly been used.

If you decline the refund the buyer has other options to get their money back.

Chargeback via their card company.

Small claims court against your business.

And of course trashing your reputation. How much would you save on a colouring book?

 

[Uwe (Invoiceberry)]

I think there are two things to consider: what's the law and what's best for business.

The law requires you to accept returns for up to 14 days and refund the money.

I haven't checked in detail, but I assume that if you sell something that can be used (colouring book) and you then get a refund request, you would not have to accept it (or you could reduce the refund amount).

However, any customer that orders a colouring book, uses half of it and then requests a refund is clearly (a) very uncommon and (b) most likely a troublemaker.

I'd assume a certain percentage of those cases and add it to your margins, and I'd always refund such a customer. They are the people who spend half a day leaving negative reviews on all the websites and requesting chargebacks, etc.

For example, Stripe now doesn't even refund chargeback fees, even if you win the case. So your number main goals should be customer satisfaction, positive reviews and not receiving any chargeback requests.

At InvoiceBerry, we had someone use our invoicing tool for free for years. Then when he went over the free limit, he complained to us about paying and spent multiple days spamming all the review sites with negative and false accusations. It was the final straw why we removed our free account option. But we have an extremely friendly refund policy to avoid any negative reviews.

 

[Marantzdigital]

As mentioned above, try to ignore the rules for general refunds and make sure you are following the ones for distance selling.

The gov site and also I think trading standards site helped me to form what I felt was suitable for refunds.

You will have to add it into the overall costs of sale, but once you have say 20 or 50 good buyers trouble free you can use what you made as a sort of security pot to cover the bad situations that arise.

A good description and photos really goes a long way. But I appreciate that some returns are genuine and unavoidable.

I think that as long as your terms are fair, most customers should be okay with that. The other good thing is some of these may be presents for a later date which could eat up those return days.

Having said that doesn't electrical stuff have a 1 year warranty? Does it apply to kids toys?

I think the dodgy ones will always find a way.

Distance selling rules seem so out of touch and dated. But better than eBay who have their own buyer is always right attitude.

Lastly. I don't think many people even read the terms and conditions of refunds.
Fingers crossed you get 1000 good ones paying the minor inflation to cover the 10 bad ones. I'm not super experienced in the field but see it as the only way you can rest easy and carry on with your business without fearing who's going to do you over.

 

[DontAsk]

Having said that doesn't electrical stuff have a 1 year warranty? Does it apply to kids toys?

No, I don't know where you get that from. You get the statutory protection from consumer law. A warranty is offered by the manufacturer or retailer and use in addition to these rights.

Distance selling rules seem so out of touch and dated.

In what way?

 

[Marantzdigital]

Re Distant /distance selling :

I feel it's out of touch as clearly online stores are as good as if not better than in store sales eg you have product sizes measurements and even reviews where you don't have that in shops always on the shelf. Also the customer can clearly see the product in many images and videos even reviews by the company unboxing etc..so why do they say a customer can return something they haven't seen?

I do appreciate it's not been physically touched and handled and photos can be deceiving, but I think it's a better idea to work out better fairer rules that are a little more understanding of the sellers efforts.
I mean by this, some sellers have one photo and no specs others have so much, how can we put both sellers in the same.box? Some sellers go out of their way to ensure the item is exactly as described.

I feel the regs allow for abuse. Which will kill online retail some day. Look at those clothes retailers how many returns they get of clearly used items and how they just dispose of it.

Just a personal view.

As for electrical returns and 1 year warranty text in my message :
I've not had to deal with anything like that personally for a while but used to work in retail and we had to refund anything that was under 1 year old, I handled peoples shavers and 11 month old tooth brushes, we simply had to bend over and give them their money back or exchange. Perhaps it was company policy? I know other retailers did the same at the time though.

Maybe it's changed now, worth looking into, was just my thoughts, again , incase OP wanted to search it up if he hadn't already. Every keyword adds something for the research bank, good bad or ugly.

 

[Newchodge]

you have product sizes measurements and even reviews where you don't have that in shops always on the shelf. Also the customer can clearly see the product in many images and videos even reviews by the company unboxing etc..so why do they say a customer can return something they haven't seen

Because, until I have stuck my foot into a shoe, I don't know if it fits. Until I have seen the colour of a garment against my face I don't know if it suits my skintone. Until I have picked up the cooker, I don't know if it is full size or dolls house size. That is why the rules exist.

 

[fisicx]

Also the customer can clearly see the product in many images and videos even reviews by the company unboxing etc..so why do they say a customer can return something they haven't seen?

Remember this:

The Science of Why No One Agrees on the Color of This Dress

Not since Monica Lewinsky was a White House intern has one blue dress been the source of so much consternation. (And yes, it’s blue.)

www.wired.com

 

[Marantzdigital]

Good points and I totally agree, that certain products need to be handled or inspected in person. I was more so thinking of items that are pretty much what they say on the tin, like a light bulb perhaps or a radiator key or a 10mm spanner. But even then, one person's expectations could be different to another's.

As an online retailer I was looking at it from our sectors side eg we would spend time money and effort advertising photos specs extra detail fitments sizes etc that don't necessarily come off the box (unbranded items for example) only to have someone dodgy decide they want to return after using and use the DSR as their tool to achieve it saying not as described or something similar - this was in relation to OPs colouring book example. But I also understand that the buyer doesn't have to give a reason too, so the above time effort etc is irrelevant really. We'd have to put that in regardless, but it's the cost and loss of returns eg when they don't send back properly packed or used like the colouring book eg, that's the main issue.

I don't think DS regulations are wrong, I think personally that , it's more so the abuse of these regs that leads me to say they should be updated, I'm sure online shopping habits and culture (the good and bad) has changed since last updated.

 

[Newchodge]

Good points and I totally agree, that certain products need to be handled or inspected in person. I was more so thinking of items that are pretty much what they say on the tin, like a light bulb perhaps or a radiator key or a 10mm spanner. But even then, one person's expectations could be different to another's.

As an online retailer I was looking at it from our sectors side eg we would spend time money and effort advertising photos specs extra detail fitments sizes etc that don't necessarily come off the box (unbranded items for example) only to have someone dodgy decide they want to return after using and use the DSR as their tool to achieve it saying not as described or something similar - this was in relation to OPs colouring book example. But I also understand that the buyer doesn't have to give a reason too, so the above time effort etc is irrelevant really. We'd have to put that in regardless, but it's the cost and loss of returns eg when they don't send back properly packed or used like the colouring book eg, that's the main issue.

I don't think DS regulations are wrong, I think personally that , it's more so the abuse of these regs that leads me to say they should be updated, I'm sure online shopping habits and culture (the good and bad) has changed since last updated.

You are ignoring the crooks who pretend to sell things. And yes, I accept there are crooks who try to buy things in order to cheat the seller. But let me explain it this way. If there were no right to return something I had bought, sight unseen, I would never buy anything online, even though I very rarely return anything bought online.

 

[Mr D]

Re Distant /distance selling :

I feel it's out of touch as clearly online stores are as good as if not better than in store sales eg you have product sizes measurements and even reviews where you don't have that in shops always on the shelf. Also the customer can clearly see the product in many images and videos even reviews by the company unboxing etc..so why do they say a customer can return something they haven't seen?

I do appreciate it's not been physically touched and handled and photos can be deceiving, but I think it's a better idea to work out better fairer rules that are a little more understanding of the sellers efforts.
I mean by this, some sellers have one photo and no specs others have so much, how can we put both sellers in the same.box? Some sellers go out of their way to ensure the item is exactly as described.

I feel the regs allow for abuse. Which will kill online retail some day. Look at those clothes retailers how many returns they get of clearly used items and how they just dispose of it.

Just a personal view.

As for electrical returns and 1 year warranty text in my message :
I've not had to deal with anything like that personally for a while but used to work in retail and we had to refund anything that was under 1 year old, I handled peoples shavers and 11 month old tooth brushes, we simply had to bend over and give them their money back or exchange. Perhaps it was company policy? I know other retailers did the same at the time though.

Maybe it's changed now, worth looking into, was just my thoughts, again , incase OP wanted to search it up if he hadn't already. Every keyword adds something for the research bank, good bad or ugly.

What you see on screen isn't necessarily what you will get. If I want a particular shade of blue for a project I can see on the screen it looks right, I can see in person its not quite matching.

Some products have reviews, detailed specs etc - but do you really want to spend a dozen hours researching one item to think no it doesn't suit you then spend the same amount of time researching another item and so on?

Plus of course just because its new doesn't mean it will work. Purchased a food processor online, great reviews etc - the one I got wouldn't switch on. So returned it for a full refund.

The distance selling laws help those of us selling online to sell. Without them we'd have less buyers because of the risks involved.

 

[DontAsk]

As for electrical returns and 1 year warranty text in my message :
I've not had to deal with anything like that personally for a while but used to work in retail and we had to refund anything that was under 1 year old,

That would have been the retailers own policy.

 

[japancool]

I don't know how it works in the toy market, but in ours (which is tangentially related), we see almost no returns.

At the moment, I only provide the standard 14 days, but I'll be more than amenable to someone wanting a return after that period. I make it as easy and as painless as possible. I don't require customers to request an RMA, or give a reason, and I don't argue about it with them. They send it back, as soon as we receive it and have checked the condition, we issue the refund.

99.99% of customers are honest. In fact, I don't think I've ever had a fraudulent return, or a request for a refund (apart from one guy who kept putting orders through and always cancelled a few hours later. Eventually, I politely told him to sod off and bother someone else).

 

[Mr D]

I don't know how it works in the toy market, but in ours (which is tangentially related), we see almost no returns.

At the moment, I only provide the standard 14 days, but I'll be more than amenable to someone wanting a return after that period. I make it as easy and as painless as possible. I don't require customers to request an RMA, or give a reason, and I don't argue about it with them. They send it back, as soon as we receive it and have checked the condition, we issue the refund.

99.99% of customers are honest. In fact, I don't think I've ever had a fraudulent return, or a request for a refund (apart from one guy who kept putting orders through and always cancelled a few hours later. Eventually, I politely told him to sod off and bother someone else).

We have been doing 60 day returns with seller paying all return cost.
Around 1 in 2500 orders result in any return. And most returns we can sell the item again.