Received Final Written Warning AND Demotion?! Help needed..

[hcanni819]

Hiya
I have just come out of a disciplinary, in which I have been issued with a Final Written Warning, and also told that I will also be demoted from Manager to Assistant Manager.
The reasons for my disciplinary were 'Falsification of company documents and failing to adhere to banking procedures, which have resulted in a breakdown of confidence and trust' The falsification of company documents is listed as a reason for Gross Misconduct in the staff handbook.

At present they are still deciding where I will work as an Assistant Manager, and I will be contacted in due course to inform me where I will be working and at what salary (will be lower than my current salary.)

However, after a bit of research on the net, and looking through my staff handbook, I am not sure whether I should have received both sanctions.

The handbook reads:
The outcome of the disciplinary hearing will be one of the following:
- No disciplinary action will be taken.
- Verbal Warning
- First Written Warning
- Final Written Warning
- Dismissal with Notice
- Summary Dismissal (without notice)

As you can see, it does not mention the possibility of demotion at this relevant point in the handbook.

However, there is another section in the handbook which states the following regarding Redeployment:

In certain cases, as an alternative to dismissal of an employee whose performance is found to be unsatisfactory, the Company at its sole discretion may consider a transfer to a more suitable position assuming an appropriate vacancy exists.

Now, what I am wanting to know are the following:

Should redeployment(demotion) have taken place as an alternative to the Final Written Warning, or in conjunction with?
Should my salary be affected as a result? And if so, should I still be entitled to a further month at my current salary before it drops (contract states that if the company were to terminate a contract, they will give one months notice.)
If I do decide to raise this with the company, are they then allowed to change the outcome of the disciplinary if they do agree/find out that they should only do one or the other?
How should I raise this issue with the company? If its by appeal, they can change the outcome in either direction which could result in dismissal.

I do feel that I should feel happy that I still have a job - albeit not the job I have carried out for the past 3 years, however the demotion with a pay decrease will leave me in a difficult situation.
Any help would be greatly appreciated it, I feel very confused!!

Thanks
Graham

 

[Empire1]

Just grateful you still have your job!!!

 

[MH1]

I think the alternative would be a dismissal. Maybe you should be grateful they are giving you another chance.

 

[Kernowman]

If you did the crime, then do the time.

Sounds like they COULD have dismissed you, so your best tactic now is to make no waves and no noises.

 

[hcanni819]

I appreciate that I should be grateful, and I fully admitted to what I have done - but you haven't really answered my questions.

Can anyone help with more detail, it will be much appreciated!!

 

[tony84]

Ask HR
My understanding is they cant reduce your wage without your agreement but dont hold me to that.

 

[maxine]

It sounds to me as you get a warning as stipulated plus other action hence either final warning and the sack or final warning and offer of an alternative role on in circumstances where there is an alternative role to offer you.

Sounds as if they do not have to offer you an alternative (demotion and less salary) so you are lucky to have this offer made, unless of course you feel ok about looking for a new job that wont have a glowing reference.

 

[Kernowman]

I appreciate that I should be grateful, and I fully admitted to what I have done - but you haven't really answered my questions.

Can anyone help with more detail, it will be much appreciated!!

Your treatment in this matter has two key elements, which I will attempt to lace together for you.

Let's deal with the "Falsification of company documents and failing to adhere to banking procedures" part first because that is unambiguous. You tell us that there is a direct reference to that form of industrial misconduct and an offence which merits a Gross Misconduct finding in the staff handbook. Gross Misconduct generally means a Summary Dismissal, especially so when it is linked in any way to matters financial, as your case clearly is by your own admission. In other words, Adios Muchachos, out the door immediately because we do not appreciate our employees falsifying company documents.

The second part of the finding is even MORE surprising to me that you weren't told to clear your desk and never darken their doors again and that is the statement "resulted in a breakdown of confidence and trust". That really is a serious offence in my book that I personally wouldn't tolerate at all because if I cannot trust an employee, then I see little reason to employ them. Hell's bells you are a lucky chap indeed so forget about nit picking over what the handbook says or doesn't say about demotion and pay.

Having survived two of the most serious industrial relation breaches imaginable, you are given a THIRD chance to redeem yourself by not being kicked out immediately, so there must be some redeeming reason why they are allowing you on the premises again, let alone finding you another slot to fit into. A drop in both status and wages for that privilege, you should be kissing the front step of your employer's premises each time to go into work from now on. I jest not.

 

[PERCY67]

If I was you. Get yourself another job. Why because a leopard never changes it's spots.

I would have kicked you out for the first offence never mind the second.

You should also consider, how easy it will be for you to get another job, in the current climate and a massive stain on your character.

You appear to have no regrets, try eeking a living on £65 a week, after that you will realise you need to get your head down and your backside up.

I find your arrogance breath taking.

 

[Empire1]

If I was you. Get yourself another job. Why because a leopard never changes it's spots.

I would have kicked you out for the first offence never mind the second.

You should also consider, how easy it will be for you to get another job, in the current climate and a massive stain on your character.

You appear to have no regrets, try eeking a living on £65 a week, after that you will realise you need to get your head down and your backside up.

I find your arrogance breath taking.

HEAR HEAR agree with everything you said he just dont know how real life

 

[kulture]

The O/P has clearly said what the findings of the disciplinary hearing are, BUT NOT what he actually did. It is entirely possible that what he did was a trivial thing that has been blown out of all proportion by the company. So it is not for us to judge or criticise actions that we do not know. The company has already done that and has come up with a disciplinary decision.

My advice however is similar to everyone else's advice. That is take the punishment. Accept that it could have been worse. You could by now be unemployed. There is little point arguing over the fine detail of the rule book. That way leads to dismissal. They may well say, you are right, we cannot do Final warning and demote, so we are going to dismiss you instead!

If you felt that the decision was too harsh, or wrong, THEN you should consider appealing, but you did not mention that in the post, so I can only assume you accept the decision.

 

[Empire1]

The O/P has clearly said what the findings of the disciplinary hearing are, BUT NOT what he actually did. It is entirely possible that what he did was a trivial thing that has been blown out of all proportion by the company. So it is not for us to judge or criticise actions that we do not know. The company has already done that and has come up with a disciplinary decision.

My advice however is similar to everyone else's advice. That is take the punishment. Accept that it could have been worse. You could by now be unemployed. There is little point arguing over the fine detail of the rule book. That way leads to dismissal. They may well say, you are right, we cannot do Final warning and demote, so we are going to dismiss you instead!

If you felt that the decision was too harsh, or wrong, THEN you should consider appealing, but you did not mention that in the post, so I can only assume you accept the decision.

It does say it says that he 'Falsification of company documents and failing to adhere to banking procedures, which id say is forgery so his very luck to still have a job, if he worked for my company he would be sacked and im a small company, He works for a BANK.

 

[Bri]

And also in the handbook it states it as gross misconduct which as all the other posters have categorically stated......door opens but close it on your way out.

Deal with it chum, go in on Monday and eat humble pie because you are so lucky believe all of us.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

All of these 'stop complaining and feel grateful' posts are a bit pointless and repetitive.

I'm sure he is grateful, but he's still entitled to answers and he's still entitled to get the most out of the misconduct situation if it is anyway unfair.

Anyway, this is a tricky situation, so you really need to seek professional HR help to get some solid information. However, realistically, the company could see you really pushing your luck by taking this further (especially if what you've done could have led to direct dismissal), so it could be in your best interests to simply accept the punishment and move on.

 

[Bri]

All of these 'stop complaining and feel grateful' posts are a bit pointless and repetitive.

And you say:

realistically, the company could see you really pushing your luck by taking this further (especially if what you've done could have led to direct dismissal), so it could be in your best interests to simply accept the punishment and move on.

Welcom to the repetition gang Scott

 

[hcanni819]

Thank you to Scott and Kulture, your posts have been helpful unlike everybody else.

I won't go into too much detail, but as Kulture stated I believe that something minor has been blown out of proportion, and most people I have spoken to at length about this do agree. However, I do agree that it does still come under the heading of falsification of documents. Which as stated is a grounds for gross misconduct.

Part of me feels lucky to still have a job, but the other part of me feels hard done by, as I do believe that it was something minor, not for personal gain, and done with the right intent. I don't work in a bank either.

But yes, I don't hold the same gratitude to the company that most of you think I should have, for the reasons listed above, but I will just get on with it and prove them wrong!!!

Cheers

 

[Kernowman]

Sorry, but we can ONLY go on the information presented to us.

NOWHERE in your original post do you say "I feel that for the offence I actually committed the punishment is rather harsh". Or, "I feel as though I have been tried and found guilty by a kangaroo court for something I haven't done". Or, can I appeal against this accusation because I didn't do it".

That would have been far more specific that what you presented us with, then griping it wasn't really what you were asking for.

Don't know about the rest of the folks on here, but I for one was off sick the very day they did "Telepathy" and I missed the course completely.

 

[internetspaceships]

Also, a really clever move to come and ask for advice on a forum for employers.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

And you say:


Welcom to the repetition gang Scott

It's completely different. If you say that someone is pushing their luck and should therefore attempt to move on, then that's good advice worth drilling in. Saying 'be grateful' and 'I would have sacked you' isn't good advice and it comes with an obviously negative tone. It's basically like telling the person off.

Plus, as the man said, they don't answer his questions, where I attempted to give at least some constructive advice (i.e. help on here won't be good enough for such a serious and sensitive issue).

 

[Bri]

Then his employer should be congratulated for taking a similar stance as you, by seeing something in the man that they want to keep him in employment after his indiscretion.

Theres a lady on another thread ready to be pounced on by her employers tomorrow and we tried to be devils advocate about that.

The man has come onto a forum of mainly business owners and a small percentage of employees as members not phsychotherapists or counsellors.

Current unemployment figures stand at an enormous figure so I will stick by my comments in my postings on this particular subject.

 

[Patrick Healy]

The amount of absolute gammons answering in this post is phenomenal. Firstly, where does the op state that there were 2 incidents? For all those fat cats saying they would’ve sacked you on the first instance, they should be grateful they still have anyone working for them! If I were you I would join a union and seek advice from them, and also get advice from acas. Take it a tribunal if you have to, it’s about time workers stood up against these oppressors and wealth hoarders. You have rights, make sure you use them.

 

[Patrick Healy]

It does say it says that he 'Falsification of company documents and failing to adhere to banking procedures, which id say is forgery so his very luck to still have a job, if he worked for my company he would be sacked and im a small company, He works for a BANK.

Where does it say he works for a bank?

 

[AlanJ1]

The amount of absolute gammons answering in this post is phenomenal. Firstly, where does the op state that there were 2 incidents? For all those fat cats saying they would’ve sacked you on the first instance, they should be grateful they still have anyone working for them! If I were you I would join a union and seek advice from them, and also get advice from acas. Take it a tribunal if you have to, it’s about time workers stood up against these oppressors and wealth hoarders. You have rights, make sure you use them.

Congrats you slate people posting in this thread, but failed to realise nobody has commented in 15 years? Who's the "gammon" now?

 

[Patrick Healy]

Just grateful you still have your job!!!

I’m sure he’s more grateful he can write correctly.

 

[Newchodge]

15 year old thread now attracting inappropriate comments. Thread closed.