Provided Longer Notice then Contract

[LawAbiding]

Hi,

Hope you are all well.

My Contract of Employment states that I must provide "at least 4 weeks notice" and the Company can provide the same.

I handed my notice in and provided 6 weeks notice, this was based on the new employers requested start date. They cannot make it any earlier due to annual leave by the inducting manager. I have spoken to them about the situation and the start date remains the same.

My employer has now placed me on Garden Leave with immediate effect, and also collected my equipment on the very same day. Thus completely cutting me off from the Company, as the new Employer is a competitor.

I have now received a letter asking me to sign and return. This letter states that as per my Contract of Employment, they have issued me 4 weeks notice, with all 4 weeks being on Garden leave, the letter stipulates the terms of the Garden Leave etc.

I feel that this has become "Involuntary Leave" instead of "Voluntary Leave". I did not encourage Garden Leave, and upto the return of the equipment, continually offered to work the full 6 weeks. I rather work then loose 2 weeks pay.

Citizen Advice states:

"You can give more notice than your contract says, if you want - your employer can’t make you leave earlier. If they do make you leave earlier, this counts as sacking you"

As per the Company Policy, as I am a "Involuntary Leaver" this is classed as "Dismissal".

Where do I stand?

P.S. I appreciate many people would think 6 weeks off work, with 4 weeks paid is awesome. But I genuinely rather work then loose 2 weeks of pay.

 

[Newchodge]

How long have you worked for them? If it is more than 2 years you would probably win an unfair dismissal tribunal. If less than 2 years, nothing you can do.

 

[LawAbiding]

How long have you worked for them? If it is more than 2 years you would probably win an unfair dismissal tribunal. If less than 2 years, nothing you can do.

Hi, thanks for the reply, 2 years, 2 months with the same employer.

During which period I have been in 2 roles.

 

[Newchodge]

Hi, thanks for the reply, 2 years, 2 months with the same employer.

During which period I have been in 2 roles.

Ring ACAS and tell them you want to start the pre-tribunal conciliation process.

 

[LawAbiding]

Ring ACAS and tell them you want to start the pre-tribunal conciliation process.

I've responded to employer clarifying the terms of the termination of contract, I asked directly that my pay and benefits would not continue after the date they have stated and each time the answer was avoided.

I have now made them aware of my view point including what Citizen Advice state.

They have stated they will continue to consult HR and get back to me.

Let's see what happens.

I have been trying to find a tribunal case similar but have struggled so far, but will continue

 

[Newchodge]

I asked directly that my pay and benefits would not continue after the date they have stated and each time the answer was avoided.

That sounds as if you have told them not to pay you after the date they have stated? I hope you did not say that.

I doubt you will find a tribunal case about this. Not many employers are that stupid.

 

[LawAbiding]

That sounds as if you have told them not to pay you after the date they have stated? I hope you did not say that.

I doubt you will find a tribunal case about this. Not many employers are that stupid.

No sorry I didn't say that, I've asked them to confirm if this is the case and if they are terminating me 2 weeks earlier, to date the questions have been completely avoided.

I suspect the manager has not taken any HR advice and hopefully the approach will change once HR gets involved.

 

[Newchodge]

Be very careful what you say to them

 

[LawAbiding]

Be very careful what you say to them

Will do

 

[fisicx]

Doesn’t the notice period work both ways? The contract says at least 4 weeks but the employer can decide that you can go after 4 weeks. Or have I missed something?

 

[Newchodge]

Doesn’t the notice period work both ways? The contract says at least 4 weeks but the employer can decide that you can go after 4 weeks. Or have I missed something?

No you are absolutely right.

However, unless the dismissal is for a fair reason, the employee can claim unfair dismissal if they have 2 years' service. It is not wrongful dismissal - dismissal in breach of contract terms. as you sy they can give 4 weeks notice and they can require garden leave, or even leaving with pay in lieu.

What they cannot do safely is dismiss without a fair reason, following a proper process.

 

[DontAsk]

Doesn’t the notice period work both ways? The contract says at least 4 weeks but the employer can decide that you can go after 4 weeks. Or have I missed something?

If they can't come up with a valid reason to dismiss you on 4 weeks notice then they will still have to pay you for the extra weeks (2 in the OPs case).

 

[soundengineeruk]

Just so I read this correctly.

Does your contract say 4 weeks notice must be given if you wish to terminate your employment? If yes and the company pays you for the 4 weeks then nothing much you can do; however not HR/legal expert.

Garden leaving to my Knowledge means you are still employed and they (employer) can recall you back to work during the gardening leave process. So, yes you cannot do any work, but you are getting paid in full your contracted pay for notice period.

From the outside looking in, it appears you have put in your notice too early. The company (current employer) is fulfilling their contract obligations, but they don’t have give you more because your new employer can start until later date; which is more than your notice period.

So if it is case your employment is terminated after the contracted notice period, don’t think you have a case for unfair dissmal.

On the non-hr side. Why would a company pay for 2 weeks when you going to work for a competitor?

 

[Newchodge]

So if it is case your employment is terminated after the contracted notice period, don’t think you have a case for unfair dissmal.

Suppose for a minute someone decides that next year they are going on a round the world trip and they tell their employer their plans and that they will be leaving in 12 months' time. The employer decides that is unacceptable and immediately gives them their 4 weeks notice. Do you think that (assuming 2 years' employment) would be a potential unfair dismissal? What is the potentially fair reason? If you agree that is unfair dismissal, the only difference between that scenario and this one is the amount of time involved. The OP's compensatory award will be limited to 2 weeks as that is their only loss, but it is still unfair dismissal.

 

[soundengineeruk]

Suppose for a minute someone decides that next year they are going on a round the world trip and they tell their employer their plans and that they will be leaving in 12 months' time. The employer decides that is unacceptable and immediately gives them their 4 weeks notice. Do you think that (assuming 2 years' employment) would be a potential unfair dismissal? What is the potentially fair reason? If you agree that is unfair dismissal, the only difference between that scenario and this one is the amount of time involved. The OP's compensatory award will be limited to 2 weeks as that is their only loss, but it is still unfair dismissal.

An employer I do not think is legally obligated to except a longer notice period given by an employee. However, the employer has the opportunity to accept a longer notice period or not. If they do accept the longer notice period and they sent confirmation of their (employer) acceptance of the longer notice period, then yes the employer would be liable for payment for the extended notice period.

The person who is going on around the world trip could be considered as having a career break and could fall under a career break policy.

 

[Newchodge]

An employer I do not think is legally obligated to except a longer notice period given by an employee.

There is never any question of an employer accepting or not accepting any notice period. The notice period in the contract is the MINIMUM that should be given.

I realise that these forums are designed so that people can offer their opinion, but it is helpful if the opinion has at least a basis in reality.

 

[obscure]

Does your contract say 4 weeks notice must be given if you wish to terminate your employment? If yes and the company pays you for the 4 weeks then nothing much you can do; however not HR/legal expert.

Then leave it to those like Cyndy who are.

 

[soundengineeruk]

My Contract of Employment states that I must provide "at least 4 weeks notice" and the Company can provide the same.

The notice period in the contract is the MINIMUM that should be given.

The OP said at least 4 weeks must be given, the OP gave 6 weeks notice but the employer appears to revert to the minimum of 4 weeks, as I said do think they are legally obligated to accept 6 weeks notice.

I realise that these forums are designed so that people can offer their opinion, but it is helpful if the opinion has at least a basis in reality.

It is a community forum, people can provide an opinion on the topics raised.

Is there anything the T&Cs of the community forum to where members cannot provide an opinion on different topics created?

There are professional services available there people want to verify an opinion posted.

Please if you feel my opinion on this topic has offended you or breaks the T&Cs of using this site, then just hit the Report this post link and refer it to the moderators of this site.

 

[SERC1204]

The OP said at least 4 weeks must be given, the OP gave 6 weeks notice but the employer appears to revert to the minimum of 4 weeks, as I said do think they are legally obligated to accept 6 weeks notice

But if in any situation the employer is telling the employee they must leave before the employee wishes (contractual period or not, notice given or not), the employer is effectively dismissing the employee. If there is a valid reason for dismissal, so be it, but having another job to go to is not a valid reason for dismissal. It’s no different to employer deciding on a whim to dismiss an employee and giving their contractual notice.

Edit: BTW, no one has said you can’t have an opinion, it’s simply a case of an opinion won’t help the situation as it’s an issue of legality.

 

[Newchodge]

as I said do think they are legally obligated to accept 6 weeks notice.

The point that you miss entirely is there is no such thing as being legally obligated to accept 6 weeks notice. Giving notice is exactly that - notifying someone of your intention. It does not involve asking permission. It is not open to acceptance or rejection. It is a statement of intent.

 

[obscure]

The key is that resignation and sacking/termination are two different things. A company may sack/terminate me but they can't resign me . When I resign I am terminating my employment. If my contract requires 4 weeks notice then I have met my contractual obligation if I give 4 or more weeks notice. The company can't say "no, you must stay" or "you must stay an extra two weeks" any more than they can say I must leave 2 weeks earlier*. Only I can resign and only I can decide what date I am going to terminate my employment.

If the company wants to decide when my employment is terminated they must sack me. But, if they do, it must be in accordance with the contract AND employment law and it is separate from my right to resignation. Me resigning and giving more than the minimum notice is not a legally valid reason to sack me.

There is a way they can force exactly 4 weeks notice but that would mean putting it in the contract. "The employee must notify us of their intent to resign exactly 4 weeks prior to their intended departure date."

* Obviously they can pay me in lieu of my 6 weeks notice or put me on garden leave for that time if they don't want me in the office.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I like your point about the contract stating exactly 4 weeks as i'd been thinking about the scenario had the leaver given 3 months notice. Readers sympathies may change if that were the case, particularly in light of him/her taking up employment with a competitor.

Reflecting on a job I was once 'invited to leave' and where the writing had been on the wall for several months could I have given several months notice and avoided the tin tack?

 

[Newchodge]

I like your point about the contract stating exactly 4 weeks as i'd been thinking about the scenario had the leaver given 3 months notice. Readers sympathies may change if that were the case, particularly in light of him/her taking up employment with a competitor.

Sorry, whose point and which sympathies.? You don't make a lot of sense.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

There is a way they can force exactly 4 weeks notice but that would mean putting it in the contract. "The employee must notify us of their intent to resign exactly 4 weeks prior to their intended departure date."

From the post immediately before mine.

Sorry, whose point and which sympathies.? You don't make a lot of sense.

The sympathy of readers who currently see the employer as trying it on by reducing the 6 weeks notice to 4 may alter their view if the employee gave several months notice, of leaving to join a competitor.

 

[LawAbiding]

Hi everyone,

Sorry I seem to have missed these recent posts.

Update can be found in BOLD

Some facts in case this thread helps others:

Employed with employer 2 years and 3 months
Contract states "At least 4 weeks notice", this is for both employer and employee
Contract has terms regarding confidentiality and non-disclosure of company "secrets"
Contract has terms of Garden Leave, what you can and cannot do

I make the mistake of handing in 6 weeks notice, rather than waiting 2 weeks and then handing in 4 weeks. I thought I was doing right thing, but informing immediately and giving notice. I was put on Garden Leave with Immediate effect.

Company response was, what I would call "Notice of Termination of Contact" it acknowledges my resignation letter, but does not acknowledge the last working day I put in my letter.

Company states they providing the contractual requirement of 4 weeks notice.

According to Citizen Advice, this can be seen as sacking:

"You can give more notice than your contract says, if you want - your employer can’t make you leave earlier. If they do make you leave earlier, this counts as sacking you."

I respond to employer clarifying what they are doing, initially I asked them to confirm that the 4 weeks will be my last working day. They confirm yes.

I ask whether I would be entitled to my usual contractual pay and benefits after these 4 weeks. They confirm no.

At this point, I highlighted the above text from Citizen Advice and state that I believe that they are dismissing with 4 weeks notice. In this correspondence, I do not make any threats for unfair dismissal, or taking a case to ACAS, but rather ask them to confirm I am being dismissed and advise that they speak to legal and HR first before confirming.

Few days later, I get a revised letter acknowledging my resignation and providing 6 weeks notice, with pay and benefits to continue throughout.

I am confident the manager was a lone wolf, trying to dictate his/her terms which HR made him/her change when he/she took advice.

Simple win, I was prepared for a Unfair dismissal tribunal case!

Thanks for all the input

 

[Mark Laurie]

Hi everyone,

Sorry I seem to have missed these recent posts.

Update can be found in BOLD

Some facts in case this thread helps others:

Employed with employer 2 years and 3 months
Contract states "At least 4 weeks notice", this is for both employer and employee
Contract has terms regarding confidentiality and non-disclosure of company "secrets"
Contract has terms of Garden Leave, what you can and cannot do

I make the mistake of handing in 6 weeks notice, rather than waiting 2 weeks and then handing in 4 weeks. I thought I was doing right thing, but informing immediately and giving notice. I was put on Garden Leave with Immediate effect.

Company response was, what I would call "Notice of Termination of Contact" it acknowledges my resignation letter, but does not acknowledge the last working day I put in my letter.

Company states they providing the contractual requirement of 4 weeks notice.

According to Citizen Advice, this can be seen as sacking:

"You can give more notice than your contract says, if you want - your employer can’t make you leave earlier. If they do make you leave earlier, this counts as sacking you."

I respond to employer clarifying what they are doing, initially I asked them to confirm that the 4 weeks will be my last working day. They confirm yes.

I ask whether I would be entitled to my usual contractual pay and benefits after these 4 weeks. They confirm no.

At this point, I highlighted the above text from Citizen Advice and state that I believe that they are dismissing with 4 weeks notice. In this correspondence, I do not make any threats for unfair dismissal, or taking a case to ACAS, but rather ask them to confirm I am being dismissed and advise that they speak to legal and HR first before confirming.

Few days later, I get a revised letter acknowledging my resignation and providing 6 weeks notice, with pay and benefits to continue throughout.

I am confident the manager was a lone wolf, trying to dictate his/her terms which HR made him/her change when he/she took advice.

Simple win, I was prepared for a Unfair dismissal tribunal case!

Thanks for all the input

Result, congratulations!

 

[LawAbiding]

Just caught up on the discussions between members and its a interesting vary of points.

I can see the situation, if my new employer wanted me to start in 6 months time, and I "did the right thing" and provided 6 months notice, but as I am going to a competitor, my current employer decided to put me on Garden Leave, could they legally provide 4 weeks notice as per contract and dismiss me? And not have to pay for the full 6 months.

Doing some other research, they could cite SOSR as a reason for dismissal.....

Citing, it is in the companies benefit to dismiss me before I can share confidential data to the new employee.....but then some would argue that my contract already covers these possible circumstances, hell my contract tells me what I cannot do after I have left for up to 2 years!

I think it all comes down to being reasonable. If I was asked to start in 6 months, I may have thought more to hand in 6 months notice. But at 6 weeks, I thought I was safe, clearly I wasn't initially, but after some clarification the position quickly changed.

 

[Newchodge]

Thanks for the update. Good luck in the new job.

 

[LawAbiding]

Thanks for the update. Good luck in the new job.

Thank You

 

[UKSBD]

When put on garden leave, can the company ask you to come in to work at any time?

 

[LawAbiding]

When put on garden leave, can the company ask you to come in to work at any time?

Yes, in theory.

For my case, they have taken my laptop and phone and ID, so even if they asked me to come in, I wouldn't be able to do anything.

 

[UKSBD]

No, but if the manager doesn't like what you are doing you may find yourself having to travel to work every morning.

They may decide that if they've got to pay you for 6 weeks anyway they may as well get you in doing menial tasks.

 

[LawAbiding]

No, but if the manager doesn't like what you are doing you may find yourself having to travel to work every morning.

They may decide that if they've got to pay you for 6 weeks anyway they may as well get you in doing menial tasks.

Well two weeks in and nothing, 4 weeks to go and with the office being over 200 miles away as I was a home worker I doubt they going to drag me down, pay for my expenses and hotel just to do menial work