Preparing for the worst

[Lucan Unlordly]

There are sawmills, yes, but not the factory sawmills that can produce the volumes we have been importing from Scandinavia, or indeed any who can touch the Scandinavians for price. Hence my comment about there not being the infrastructure.

I worked for the number one supplier of fence panels, Larch Lap, prior to them being swallowed up by Forest Fencing. In order to produce the volumes they did the saw blades required constant re-sharpening. This wasn't one bloke on a bench with a file and I'm sure technology has improved but the kit they had back then was way ahead of anything your local sawmill would have.

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

I worked for the number one supplier of fence panels, Larch Lap, prior to them being swallowed up by Forest Fencing. In order to produce the volumes they did the saw blades required constant re-sharpening. This wasn't one bloke on a bench with a file and I'm sure technology has improved but the kit they had back then was way ahead of anything your local sawmill would have.

All the sawmills I know send their blades and bands off to a specialist to be sharpened and reset. The specialists have automated machines that do this, it would make sense for a large sawmill to have their own too.

 

[SillyBill]

I don't want to cause a panic but my neighbour has just told me he is struggling to obtain the right colour fence paint now.

We manufacture up to 100,000 litres a month of fence paint, 150,000 on a busy month. Expect shortages. The pressure on producers is actually worst than the most severe points of last year. I posted in the "how has Covid affected your business" thread as much, with particular reference to how inflation is only getting warmed up from what I am seeing. Q3 pricing is going to be the biggest quartley increases we've ever applied and it will be an absolutely non-negotiable price list, take it or leave it; we can't make money unless end consumer picks this tab up.

The whole supply chain has collapsed. I had to send guys home the other day when nothing came in as planned... this when the order book is bulging, we had no tins, no cartons and struggling to get hold of basic raw materials. Every week we are battling to get hold of key input materials. Buying certain materials now at 200-300% more than we were in January. It would be easier if customers understood what manufacturers are up against but they are still in a 2019 mindset in a lot of cases, as if COVID-19 hasn't destroyed the supply chain.

 

[The Byre]

inflation is only getting warmed up from what I am seeing. Q3 pricing is going to be the biggest quartley increases we've ever applied and it will be an absolutely non-negotiable price list, take it or leave it; we can't make money unless end consumer picks this tab up.

This is going to be The Big One. It is the 100-year debt cycle coming around again and it's going to hit harder than the last time. This time almost EVERY country on Earth has been printing money and borrowing their bags off.

The 2007-2010 CDO and banking crisis was just the soup and bread rolls. The main course has not yet been served!

Governments everywhere have been covering up the facts. 40m in the UK are fit and ready to work. 30m are in the workforce. 24m full time. 11.5m on furlough - paid for by government borrowing and the BoE printing money. But we only have 5% unemployment!

Pandemic, Brexit, debt cycle, foolish and short-sighted monetary policies (i.e. ten years of irresponsible QE) are all combining to destroy money as we know it today.

Civil unrest is the inevitable outcome!

 

[Andre78]

Well I had a very positive meeting with the national operations manager from a metal fencing company

We will almost certainly be approved installers and they'll be sending us work.

The mark down they are giving me on materials is not as much as my current mark up on procured materials but the materials themselves are much more expensive so of course the VAT input is greater. Financially it's workable and the chap said they had over a million pound of work around this area. Seemed earnest and genuine so I have little reason to doubt this is the case.

The novel thing is I wont be quoting these jobs so I may go back on the tools if we get several weeks in a row. Certainly for a month or two to familiarise myself with the stock. Quite looking forward to it if it pans out OK.

I'm still a little nervous as I literally went from a sole trader to a Ltd and expanded 1 month before the pandemic began so I have practically zero liquidity but it is looking like a strong lifeline and I'm trying to be optimistic.

 

[WaveJumper]

Seems like it's beginning to effect all sorts of business's now
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57379810

 

[Andre78]

Seems like it's beginning to effect all sorts of business's now
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57379810

I don't go in for conspiracy theories. Nor do I believe every "official" narrative. But this pandemic sure has been good for Big business, and devastating for small ones...

With more and more evidence of this virus coming from the Wuhan lab and financial aid proven to be given to it for "gain of function" research of dangerous virus' I would not at all be surprised if this was a deliberate action.

 

[Andre78]

How's this for a potentially bad idea?

Sign the whole business over to my wife (wife's family are rich and she travelled across the world from the lap of luxury to live with my broke ass years ago) Zero trust issues

Take out personal debt and use to to pay off now "her" business debt. Economy crashes and we can't keep work flowing, keep a minimum staffing level and wait. Zero debt and minimal running costs.

If necessary I personally become insolvent but business is unaffected and obviously still functioning.

This is a worse case scenario idea of course.

Don't flame me. I'm sure there are lot's of things wrong with this idea. I'm just putting it out there for thoughts.

 

[BusterBloodvessel]

It would be easier if customers understood what manufacturers are up against but they are still in a 2019 mindset in a lot of cases, as if COVID-19 hasn't destroyed the supply chain.

This is my biggest bug bear at the moment dealing with customers, and in fact internal buyers, at work. I'm scratching my head and feel like saying....."have you not noticed what's going on around you or what's been happening in the world???"

We've had one particular customer slam a spot order in for double their annual quantity and they want it in less than their normal leadtime. We explained that we can't supply it due to material shortages for the cartons we use. Their answer: "We don't accept that. You need to tell your supplier they need to improve the lead times".

Cue everyone internally running round and slamming this supplier with the same request over and over again

"you need to improve the leadtime"
"we can't. We can't even get the board for 4 months"
"well what can we do to improve the leadtime"
"You can't"
"we need delivery in 16 weeks. Can you confirm you can meet that"
"we already confirmed we can't"

And rinse and repeat every day with different people thinking they can "fix" the issue by simply bullying the supplier that they must improve. GIVE ME STRENGTH!!!

Aaaaand.....breathe

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

How's this for a potentially bad idea?

Sign the whole business over to my wife (wife's family are rich and she travelled across the world from the lap of luxury to live with my broke ass years ago) Zero trust issues

Take out personal debt and use to to pay off now "her" business debt. Economy crashes and we can't keep work flowing, keep a minimum staffing level and wait. Zero debt and minimal running costs.

If necessary I personally become insolvent but business is unaffected and obviously still functioning.

This is a worse case scenario idea of course.

Don't flame me. I'm sure there are lot's of things wrong with this idea. I'm just putting it out there for thoughts.

If the wifes family are rich, I'm sure they'll bail you out. If not, then the LTD goes down and so what?

All you would be doing is digging a bigger hole for yourself personally. Where does signing the business over to the wife even come in to it? The LTD is it's own legal entity. If you wish to keep it afloat by incurring personal debt that's your perogative, but seems silly in the face of such market problems and uncertainty.

If you are that eager to assume liability personally, why did you become LTD in the first place?

Things to think about. What do you currently owe? Finance on machinery? What obiligations do you feel? Staff? You might be surprised how few obligations you actually have, as a LTD company director that's only been going a short while.

 

[WaveJumper]

This is my biggest bug bear at the moment dealing with customers, and in fact internal buyers, at work. I'm scratching my head and feel like saying....."have you not noticed what's going on around you or what's been happening in the world???"

We've had one particular customer slam a spot order in for double their annual quantity and they want it in less than their normal leadtime. We explained that we can't supply it due to material shortages for the cartons we use. Their answer: "We don't accept that. You need to tell your supplier they need to improve the lead times".

Cue everyone internally running round and slamming this supplier with the same request over and over again

"you need to improve the leadtime"
"we can't. We can't even get the board for 4 months"
"well what can we do to improve the leadtime"
"You can't"
"we need delivery in 16 weeks. Can you confirm you can meet that"
"we already confirmed we can't"

And rinse and repeat every day with different people thinking they can "fix" the issue by simply bullying the supplier that they must improve. GIVE ME STRENGTH!!!

Aaaaand.....breathe

Yep my son has customers who still think you can get product in 24hrs and others who don't understand the difficulty of getting items out of the EU. Too me when I hear the stories it seems like some are living in a parallel universe of yester-year and not quite woken up to the new world order

It will get better ..... so my local MP tells me

 

[Andre78]

If the wifes family are rich, I'm sure they'll bail you out. If not, then the LTD goes down and so what?

All you would be doing is digging a bigger hole for yourself personally. Where does signing the business over to the wife even come in to it? The LTD is it's own legal entity. If you wish to keep it afloat by incurring personal debt that's your perogative, but seems silly in the face of such market problems and uncertainty.

If you are that eager to assume liability personally, why did you become LTD in the first place?

Things to think about. What do you currently owe? Finance on machinery? What obiligations do you feel? Staff? You might be surprised how few obligations you actually have, as a LTD company director that's only been going a short while.

The only reason we are in this country and not hers is because my dad has mental health problems and we're a small family so I don't want to leave him. Down the line, yes I'll probably end up working for her family or we'll buy her another pharmacy in her country. I don't want a penny of my in-laws money though.

My logic re the business is this. I have 2 teams working full time and 300+ 10/10 ratings on a wide variety of review platforms. If the economy doesn't go to shit and I can keep standards high then next year I'll have 3 teams, possibly 4, including admin support if the metal fencing work comes in regularly. I'll have a headache sure but I'll be extremely financially comfortable.

The alternative is if the economy crashes, I wind things down a bit and wait fo for the pick up and I'm soon back running 2-4 teams a year or 2 later. If I personally go insolvent in the process then who gives a damn if my wife is taking 2 large salaries and significant dividends from the company. That not make sense?

 

[Andre78]

Re signing the wife over. I figured if I personally went bankrupt then it would have an adverse effect on the business being that the owner was obviously bankrupt. Perhaps not too adverse but this is why I'm brainstorming unusual possible solutions to unusual possible future problems. I'm not by nature a cynical person but I am expecting the shit to hit the fan in the next 12 months.

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

The only reason we are in this country and not hers is because my dad has mental health problems and we're a small family so I don't want to leave him. Down the line, yes I'll probably end up working for her family or we'll buy her another pharmacy in her country. I don't want a penny of my in-laws money though.

My logic re the business is this. I have 2 teams working full time and 300+ 10/10 ratings on a wide variety of review platforms. If the economy doesn't go to **** and I can keep standards high then next year I'll have 3 teams, possibly 4, including admin support if the metal fencing work comes in regularly. I'll have a headache sure but I'll be extremely financially comfortable.

The alternative is if the economy crashes, I wind things down a bit and wait fo for the pick up and I'm soon back running 2-4 teams a year or 2 later. If I personally go insolvent in the process then who gives a damn if my wife is taking 2 large salaries and significant dividends from the company. That not make sense?

Not really. Why don't you source a loan at mutally reasonable interest rates from your inlaws? If you have to finance the hard times personally, how much in personal loans do you realistically think you will be able to raise, without dragging the wife into risk anyway through re-mortaging the house?

The obvious answer in my book is to downsize temporarily. Sell a vehicle and drop a team. It's tough, but business is about making tough decisions. If the work isn't there, it's not there. If it's just a lack of materials, then pivot. Call your favourite customers, ask if they need any hedges cutting just to help keep the lads in work.

Speaking of tough decisions and tough talk- you can tell me all you like about how your wife is an angel and the most honest natured person you know (and I know mine is). But history and these forums are littered with examples of men who've rued the day they gave their wife half of their business, never mind the whole shebang.

 

[The Byre]

But history and these forums are littered with examples of men who've rued the day they gave their wife half of their business, never mind the whole shebang.

On a point of order, I think (I haven't counted them!) we get more women being chiseled out of their share of the family company. But the point still stands!

 

[Andre78]

Not really. Why don't you source a loan at mutally reasonable interest rates from your inlaws? If you have to finance the hard times personally, how much in personal loans do you realistically think you will be able to raise, without dragging the wife into risk anyway through re-mortaging the house?

The obvious answer in my book is to downsize temporarily. Sell a vehicle and drop a team. It's tough, but business is about making tough decisions. If the work isn't there, it's not there. If it's just a lack of materials, then pivot. Call your favourite customers, ask if they need any hedges cutting just to help keep the lads in work.

Speaking of tough decisions and tough talk- you can tell me all you like about how your wife is an angel and the most honest natured person you know (and I know mine is). But history and these forums are littered with examples of men who've rued the day they gave their wife half of their business, never mind the whole shebang.

I have to say I am inclined to agree with you.

The wife thing though, honestly, you have no idea the lifestyle my wife gave up for me. Though we're dong better these days she understood my not accepting any help from her mother over the years also. Sure if I was unfaithful she's nail me to the wall I imagine but other than that it would have to be the longest con in human history.

Anyway... probably the most prudent thing would be to sell my car, lose one van one team and reduce debt biz debt significantly, but also profit. It might be viable to go back on the tools also which is a big profit boost. Then wait and hope to get through.

 

[The Byre]

The worst has not yet happened! Lumber prices are easing in the US and supplies are flowing again. The high prices seem to have scared people into postponing their smaller projects and in some sectors, demand has halved.

I just did 60m of garden fence this morning - that green stuff for about £2.50 a meter. Why does fencing wire have a mind of its own? One of life's mysteries, I suppose!

 

[SillyBill]

This is my biggest bug bear at the moment dealing with customers, and in fact internal buyers, at work. I'm scratching my head and feel like saying....."have you not noticed what's going on around you or what's been happening in the world???"

We've had one particular customer slam a spot order in for double their annual quantity and they want it in less than their normal leadtime. We explained that we can't supply it due to material shortages for the cartons we use. Their answer: "We don't accept that. You need to tell your supplier they need to improve the lead times".

Cue everyone internally running round and slamming this supplier with the same request over and over again

"you need to improve the leadtime"
"we can't. We can't even get the board for 4 months"
"well what can we do to improve the leadtime"
"You can't"
"we need delivery in 16 weeks. Can you confirm you can meet that"
"we already confirmed we can't"

And rinse and repeat every day with different people thinking they can "fix" the issue by simply bullying the supplier that they must improve. GIVE ME STRENGTH!!!

Aaaaand.....breathe

I get you. I've got so fed up with a couple of customers I've had to (uncharacteristically) tell them "if you don't like it go somewhere else, please stop harassing us". I am usually very diplomatic but we (me and the staff included) are so sick and tired of being harangued at the moment when we're doing our best under severely challenging circumstances. Sometimes you have to stick up for your business and your staff and this is one of those times. We had one guy on the phone calling our order processor 2 times a day in addition to e-mailing constantly demanding we improve lead times. And then demanded to speak to me. Eventually got put through and I told him very abruptly we didn't like his tactics and if he persists he will go to the back of queue. Just don't need it. At that point I think the penny dropped and realised we needed his money less than he needed our product which is sometimes a surprise and a lesson of where the supplier should be respected...Had our biggest customer all over us as if all of a sudden for the first time in 12 years we can't meet the lead times we've consistently met for 12 years something must have gone wrong in our business...

I appreciate not everyone can tell a customer to sling their hook but at my point in life I don't need the hassle nor am financially dependent on working, so when you're working all hours at the moment for your customers and then getting abuse for it...not so fun.

 

[Mark T Jones]

At that point I think the penny dropped and realised we needed his money less than he needed our product

That's when you've arrived - when you realise that delivering good service doesn't mean crawling up their @rse or putting up with cr@p!

 

[Noah]

Yes I totally understand as my son in law does this in Australia and currently sitting last exams so that he can come off the tools. He is asleep most nights by 8.30, very tiring and dangerous occupation ...

And don't even mention the drop bears!

 

[Andre78]

I appreciate not everyone can tell a customer to sling their hook but at my point in life I don't need the hassle nor am financially dependent on working, so when you're working all hours at the moment for your customers and then getting abuse for it...not so fun.

I've turned down 2 jobs like this in the last month. First customer haggling me down telling how much cheaper other quotes were etc and then changing the spec 3 times. Another literally shouting at me on the phone when discussing his quotation prior to work starting. Comes a point when you have to say sorry we can no longer tender for this work as calmly as you can manage.

It does get complicated though when they ask why.. Still haven't figured a way out of that question without one way or another letting them know they are a complete pain in the backside.

 

[tony84]

It does get complicated though when they ask why.. Still haven't figured a way out of that question without one way or another letting them know they are a complete pain in the backside.

We are doing work on your home, it can be a stressful time as we are going to be in your personal space for a few days which can be inconvenient. I feel like we are butting heads before that has started and so I think it is best if we pull out and wish you all the best.

The first part does not lay blame at anyones feet, the underlined part is the bit that 9 times out of 10 makes it final. It means they have to apologise for their part and fight to keep you - which if that happens I think it shows you probably think you are probably quite good at your job and you can then decide whether to move forward with them or not.

 

[AllUpHere]

Going back to the original point of the thread, if you've got a good team of guys you can easily diversify into something else for the short to medium term, just to keep things going. whilst fencing may be a problem, there are so many other things you could be doing.

 

[BusterBloodvessel]

I've turned down 2 jobs like this in the last month. First customer haggling me down telling how much cheaper other quotes were etc and then changing the spec 3 times. Another literally shouting at me on the phone when discussing his quotation prior to work starting. Comes a point when you have to say sorry we can no longer tender for this work as calmly as you can manage.

It does get complicated though when they ask why.. Still haven't figured a way out of that question without one way or another letting them know they are a complete pain in the backside.

I know we're going off topic here but funnily enough I've just helped a friend draft something by email to a customer that was doing his head in to politely tell them to do one - basically she wanted a mixture of some general repair jobs such as replacing an extractor fan, fitting some new door handles, painting a couple of ceilings etc. He quoted £185 to complete everything at which point;

- She asked for a breakdown of the work for labour and materials separately
- He declined, stating some things couldn't be judged and were consumables (screws, paintbrushes etc). he also pre-empted the next question and stated he wouldn't use customer supplied materials.
- She asked him for two extra jobs, could he also do those for the price - NO!
- She phoned him and asked again about material cost, again he said he didn't know but "maybe around £50"
- At which point she sent him an email stating that if he was getting materials for £50, and in her opinion the work should only take "a couple of hours" then his hourly rate was around £70 which she claimed was "excessive". Therefore she would hope that he would at least complete the additional jobs she requested. "Please turn up at the agreed time tomorrow and we will discuss it then and agree the additional work".

Welll....my mates head well and truly popped at that! I helped him write an email as politely as possible explaining that she isn't just paying for the 2 hours he spends on site. But ended it with this which may help you?

Clearly our expectations and attitudes are not aligned and you do not see the value in the service that we strive to provide, and very often do as our many hundreds of satisfied and repeat customers would testify.

Following all of the above, I suggest that you look for an alternative company that are more in line with your own financial expectations and, whilst I thank you for the enquiry, in this instance I will be declining to undertake this work.

 

[Andre78]

Going back to the original point of the thread, if you've got a good team of guys you can easily diversify into something else for the short to medium term, just to keep things going. whilst fencing may be a problem, there are so many other things you could be doing.

I currently have to view 5 - 15 quotes per week and compose them. I have to win at least 50% to keep things ticking along. I don't see how it could possibly be an easy task to immediately get that kind of demand in another industry. That's even if the entire country weren't thinking along the same lines. I'm not saying it's impossible but to say it's easy is outrageously optimistic without a portfolio and existing customer base in said diversification.

 

[Andre78]

I know we're going off topic here but funnily enough I've just helped a friend draft something by email to a customer that was doing his head in to politely tell them to do one - basically she wanted a mixture of some general repair jobs such as replacing an extractor fan, fitting some new door handles, painting a couple of ceilings etc. He quoted £185 to complete everything at which point;

- She asked for a breakdown of the work for labour and materials separately
- He declined, stating some things couldn't be judged and were consumables (screws, paintbrushes etc). he also pre-empted the next question and stated he wouldn't use customer supplied materials.
- She asked him for two extra jobs, could he also do those for the price - NO!
- She phoned him and asked again about material cost, again he said he didn't know but "maybe around £50"
- At which point she sent him an email stating that if he was getting materials for £50, and in her opinion the work should only take "a couple of hours" then his hourly rate was around £70 which she claimed was "excessive". Therefore she would hope that he would at least complete the additional jobs she requested. "Please turn up at the agreed time tomorrow and we will discuss it then and agree the additional work".

Welll....my mates head well and truly popped at that! I helped him write an email as politely as possible explaining that she isn't just paying for the 2 hours he spends on site. But ended it with this which may help you?

Clearly our expectations and attitudes are not aligned and you do not see the value in the service that we strive to provide, and very often do as our many hundreds of satisfied and repeat customers would testify.

Following all of the above, I suggest that you look for an alternative company that are more in line with your own financial expectations and, whilst I thank you for the enquiry, in this instance I will be declining to undertake this work.

Drives me insane also that sort of thing. Frankly people like this are just dumb. You don't need a lot of intelligence to realise that a business has costs that go beyond an individual's labour; that no job starts when on site or finishes when the contractor has left; that holiday pay, sick pay banking costs are part of the cost; that every moment spend debating the damn thing is diluting the contractor's bottom line.

 

[AllUpHere]

I currently have to view 5 - 15 quotes per week and compose them. I have to win at least 50% to keep things ticking along. I don't see how it could possibly be an easy task to immediately get that kind of demand in another industry. That's even if the entire country weren't thinking along the same lines. I'm not saying it's impossible but to say it's easy is outrageously optimistic without a portfolio and existing customer base in said diversification.

The amount of quotes per week suggests you only really tackle small jobs? Unless you have 5 - 10 teams out working. Is there a reason you don't target larger jobs? What's your average job value?

 

[Andre78]

The amount of quotes per week suggests you only really tackle small jobs? Unless you have 5 - 10 teams out working. Is there a reason you don't target larger jobs? What's your average job value?

Anything from £70 inc VAT to 20k. Average I guess would be around £1500.

I don't mind big jobs sometimes but they sting if it goes awry. Small jobs have larger profit margins as I can charge full days even if it's 1.5 and move to the next. If they go wrong also they don't sting.

I incorporated the business Feb 2020 so credit rating is average. I do get commercial lead but quite rarely. Frankly, aside from the high admin needed I quite like it as I have 2 teams of guys working 80% of the time within a 1 mile radius of my house or our yard. It's extremely rare that we have to travel more than 15 mins to a job site which has a lot of advantages for all.

 

[AllUpHere]

Anything from £70 inc VAT to 20k. Average I guess would be around £1500.

I don't mind big jobs sometimes but they sting if it goes awry. Small jobs have larger profit margins as I can charge full days even if it's 1.5 and move to the next. If they go wrong also they don't sting.

I incorporated the business Feb 2020 so credit rating is average. I do get commercial lead but quite rarely. Frankly, aside from the high admin needed I quite like it as I have 2 teams of guys working 80% of the time within a 1 mile radius of my house or our yard. It's extremely rare that we have to travel more than 15 mins to a job site which has a lot of advantages for all.

If it's only 2 teams I can't see how you need to do so many quotes. Half of 5 to 15 quotes a week is a lot of little jobs. What would you do for your average 1500 quid job, 20m or so of closeboard?

Is it just fencing you do currently?

 

[Andre78]

If it's only 2 teams I can't see how you need to do so many quotes. Half of 5 to 15 quotes a week is a lot of little jobs. What would you do for your average 1500 quid job, 20m or so of closeboard?

Is it just fencing you do currently?

Fencing, gates, decking, concrete bases, tree work up to medium size trees, stump grinding, clearances, selective landscaping.

You may not understand it but it is what it is. Last month we carried out 22 jobs and turned over just over £33k.

 

[AllUpHere]

Fencing, gates, decking, concrete bases, tree work up to medium size trees, stump grinding, clearances, selective landscaping.

You may not understand it but it is what it is. Last month we carried out 22 jobs and turned over just over £33k.

I give up.

 

[Andre78]

I give up.

Never give up haha ;-)

 

[Opinion87]

I give up.

Why? You asked and he answered. This has been one of the better threads lately.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I will be declining to undertake this work.

I'd have sent this, or a more direct reply ending with off!

'Customer service training available on request'

 

[The Byre]

'Customer service training available on request'

I am so going to remember that line!

Fencing, gates, decking, concrete bases, tree work up to medium size trees, stump grinding, clearances, selective landscaping.

1. You could add additional services such as tilling. People with gardens love gardening but put the digging up of 100m2 of rough ground on their 'to-do' list that never gets done.

2. Keep in contact with existing customers. Fences and trees need maintenance and occasional work doing. Past customers know you and when it comes to creating business leads, these people are the low-hanging fruit!

3. Supply problems are easing in the US and I imagine that the same will happen here.

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

Sounds

Anything from £70 inc VAT to 20k. Average I guess would be around £1500.

I don't mind big jobs sometimes but they sting if it goes awry. Small jobs have larger profit margins as I can charge full days even if it's 1.5 and move to the next. If they go wrong also they don't sting.

I incorporated the business Feb 2020 so credit rating is average. I do get commercial lead but quite rarely. Frankly, aside from the high admin needed I quite like it as I have 2 teams of guys working 80% of the time within a 1 mile radius of my house or our yard. It's extremely rare that we have to travel more than 15 mins to a job site which has a lot of advantages for all.

Sounds like a very similar setup to me. With so many customers and a good rep, the obvious answer is just to diversify somewhat. If the lads don’t like, tell then it’s that or short hours till supplies improve!


But take note- big jobs do make a lot more profit. Don’t be afraid to take them on. Price them high, cover your arse, and if you get them then happy days. You’d be amazed what some folk would actually pay!

 

[Andre78]

Back to awkward customers. Once they want a breakdown of expenses and labour I decline to quote. It adds time to the quote and the only possible reason for it is so they can get some insight into how you run your business.

Sounds

Sounds like a very similar setup to me. With so many customers and a good rep, the obvious answer is just to diversify somewhat. If the lads don’t like, tell then it’s that or short hours till supplies improve!


But take note- big jobs do make a lot more profit. Don’t be afraid to take them on. Price them high, cover your arse, and if you get them then happy days. You’d be amazed what some folk would actually pay!

I'm with you Mr Bodgit. I do occasionally do them and get them. HOWEVER, I find that these days I price high enough that my conversion is down from approx 80% to 50%. Big quotes can take days to write up. Used to do full makeovers and such and they are a PITA. Email ping pong, changes mid way through the job, on the property for longer periods can increase possibility for tensions etc.

Why bother when I do a quote that's about 1.5 days work for 2 guys in 1-2 hours. Bill it as 2 days, mark up materials add the disposal to another small job and get paid twice for it, and have time free to either do endless machine/ tool maintenance or get to another job early or grind a stump out etc at 200% profit.

 

[AllUpHere]

Why? You asked and he answered. This has been one of the better threads lately.

As you asked, I'll tell you.

I advise people about stuff like this for a living and there are little tell tale signs that people aren't going to be able to get this kind of stuff right.

The op wrote "You may not understand it, but it is what it is". That was the main reason I gave up.

I'm not taking exception to the fact the OP thinks I don't understand it; he has no idea who I am or what I do. Having said that, I do understand this subject incredibly well, and in great detail.

My reason for 'giving up', was the 'it is what it is comment'. I know for a fact that it 'isn't what it is' but the OP isn't going to change his mind. He's got it into his head that his business is going to fail, or he's going to need to come up with some silly half-baked scheme to involve his wife in his mess and try to 'pull a fast' one to keep his business.

In the industry in which the OP operates there are many, many simple solutions to his problems. I got the impression from the opening post that if he couldn't get fencing materials he was doomed, but all of the other services he offers are currently booming, many don't require the materials of which he's short, and are exceptionally easy to market. I often use tree work as an exmple of an industry in which pretty much everyone has a terrible website. The focus of their content is always wrong, and anyone who puts some thought into it can do incredibly well. The same goes for most of the other services he offers, most of which have literally never been busier, or more easy to make money in.

I advised a tree surgeon only the other week who used Google ads to supply him with all of his leads. His day rate for a 3 man team with truck and chipper is £2000 and he uses Google ads only to keep them in work full time.

Keeping 2 teams busy in this industry isn't difficult or expensive. You do, however, need to be on the ball and spot the opportunities as they appear. It seems to me that the Op is letting the opportunities fly over his head whilst he's worrying about his possible lack of materials.

 

[Andre78]

As you asked, I'll tell you.

I advise people about stuff like this for a living and there are little tell tale signs that people aren't going to be able to get this kind of stuff right.

The op wrote "You may not understand it, but it is what it is". That was the main reason I gave up.

I'm not taking exception to the fact the OP thinks I don't understand it; he has no idea who I am or what I do. Having said that, I do understand this subject incredibly well, and in great detail.

My reason for 'giving up', was the 'it is what it is comment'. I know for a fact that it 'isn't what it is' but the OP isn't going to change his mind. He's got it into his head that his business is going to fail, or he's going to need to come up with some silly half-baked scheme to involve his wife in his mess and try to 'pull a fast' one to keep his business.

In the industry in which the OP operates there are many, many simple solutions to his problems. I got the impression from the opening post that if he couldn't get fencing materials he was doomed, but all of the other services he offers are currently booming, many don't require the materials of which he's short, and are exceptionally easy to market. I often use tree work as an exmple of an industry in which pretty much everyone has a terrible website. The focus of their content is always wrong, and anyone who puts some thought into it can do incredibly well. The same goes for most of the other services he offers, most of which have literally never been busier, or more easy to make money in.

I advised a tree surgeon only the other week who used Google ads to supply him with all of his leads. His day rate for a 3 man team with truck and chipper is £2000 and he uses Google ads only to keep them in work full time.

Keeping 2 teams busy in this industry isn't difficult or expensive. You do, however, need to be on the ball and spot the opportunities as they appear. It seems to me that the Op is letting the opportunities fly over his head whilst he's worrying about his possible lack of materials.

At what point did I say my business was definitely going to fail?

Even under current circumstances we are doing extremely well as a small company. Last month I earnt very very good money. I am already diversified significantly and probably I will stay afloat due to that diversity. However, we are not specifically geared for the other services we provide so we don't make as much money.

You are under the impression that 5-15 quotes per week in the fencing industry should be keeping 10-15 teams in full time employment or there about's then you don't know this industry. Yes sure we get the odd 200m of fencing around a housing estate here and there but A - that is not necessary hugely profitable and B - even that size job is 1-2 week for 2 teams and it's rare.

You say go fully into Tree work.. All well and good except 2 of my 5 staff are competent in this area and I'm 1 of them and I'm 100% admin. How exactly will that work? How do I alter my mini fleet of vans most suitable for fencing suddenly become optimised for tree work also?

Will I do what I need to do? Of course I will. Will my company that specifically is geared around fencing stagnate and make less profit. Definitely it will. Will we go bust? No we wont.

At what point did I state anything to the contrary of the above?

 

[AllUpHere]

At what point did I say my business was definitely going to fail?

Even under current circumstances we are doing extremely well as a small company. Last month I earnt very very good money. I am already diversified significantly and probably I will stay afloat due to that diversity. However, we are not specifically geared for the other services we provide so we don't make as much money.

You are under the impression that 5-15 quotes per week in the fencing industry should be keeping 10-15 teams in full time employment or there about's then you don't know this industry. Yes sure we get the odd 200m of fencing around a housing estate here and there but A - that is not necessary hugely profitable and B - even that size job is 1-2 week for 2 teams and it's rare.

You say go fully into Tree work.. All well and good except 2 of my 5 staff are competent in this area and I'm 1 of them and I'm 100% admin. How exactly will that work? How do I alter my mini fleet of vans most suitable for fencing suddenly become optimised for tree work also?

Will I do what I need to do? Of course I will. Will my company that specifically is geared around fencing stagnate and make less profit. Definitely it will. Will we go bust? No we wont.

At what point did I state anything to the contrary of the above?

My post to @Opinion87 was an explanation of why I gave up on this thread. Most of the points and assumptions you made in the above post are wrong. If we continue with this conversation you will continue to deliberatly misunderstand what I've written, and I'll spend my time correcting you; there is no sense in that.

I was asking questions so that I had enough information to offer the best advice for your specific circumstances.

I'll leave it there.