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elaine@cheapaccounting

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    I am trying to collate details of tax payers affected by the underpayment letters.

    So if you have received a demand for underpaid tax please post your details here (keeping personal details anon).

    Provide a summary of:

    Amount of tax under paid
    Dates is relates to
    Sources of income e.g. NHS pension, incapacity allowance, several jobs, etc

    If you want our help please contact us:

    Send an email to:


    [email protected]


    Or telephone the help line on 01480 718 418
     

    AndreaD

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    Sep 14, 2010
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    The case that I have been dealing with is a lady who works for a PCT but does both a day shift and a night shift and has been included on the payroll twice, albeit with the same employee reference number.

    She was never asked to complete a P46 for her 'second job'.

    The PCT has applied her tax code against both salaries and hence she has received two personal allowances. The lady has had both jobs for seven years although HMRC have so far only asked for repayment for 2008/9 and 2009/10.

    This amount totals £2,590 and hence HMRC will want this repaid as a lump sum. This will cause hardship to the lady in question.
     
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    dp0848

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    Lady in Devon aged 65 living on a modest income has received a demand for £1,650. This figure is the total of demands relating to 08/09 and 09/10. She has a full state pension and a small part time job from which she is being made redundant next week. Repaying the money will cause hardship as her income wihout the part time job will drop below £8k pa.
     
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    toniyoung

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    Mar 2, 2010
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    A lady in Bedford on incapacity benefit and receives a reduced wage from her job.
    She has received a demand for underpaid tax of £1812 relating to 2008/9 and 2009/10
    She was on a 647L tax code with her job and the incapacity benefit was being paid with no tax deducted - but she makes the point that she could not actually know this until the year end when she gets a statement from them as during the year the benefit is just paid into her account and no paper work is generated.
    At some point her tax code was changed and her employer amended her tax code to 208L with the difference being allocated to the incapacity benefit. At this point she called them to check if they were using the correct tax code and was told not to worry about it!
    She is not able to pay this sum back - they have suggested in their letter to her that she should pay this back within a year.
    She is worried about them going to back to previous years and also if they are getting it right this year.
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    I had a call on Monday from someone who wants to remain anon.

    Underpaid tax of over £2,000 - relates to NHS Pensions and Incapacity Benefits
    2008 / 2009 and 2009 / 2010

    Again worried there will go back further
     
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    J

    Julies bookkeeping

    Lady in Devon aged 65 living on a modest income has received a demand for £1,650. This figure is the total of demands relating to 08/09 and 09/10. She has a full state pension and a small part time job from which she is being made redundant next week. Repaying the money will cause hardship as her income wihout the part time job will drop below £8k pa.


    This may be the lady that I gave the number of the helpline to yesterday. It certainly sounds like her.

    I process the payroll for her current employer if you need any help.
     
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    MyAccountantOnline

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    I've just spoken with a lady who is a midwife for the NHS in the Glasgow area - she's worked for the NHS for over 30 years and has, for many years, been paid overtime which is paid using a different PAYE reference.

    Consequently she has never been subjected to 40% tax on her salary and overtime as she should have been.

    She has just had a tax demand for almost £7,000 for 2008-09 and 2009-10 which HMRC have told her she must pay within 1 month!!

    The lady is understandably disraught and has been in turmoil since receiving the demands.

    She has relied upon her employers and HMRC to get her tax right - she is a midwife and having been with the same employer for 30 years would have had no reason to believe her tax wasnt correct! She certainly had no idea she wasnt being taxed correctly.

    She knows many fellow midwifes will be in the same boat.
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    This is an an employer error but again HMRC would have known of this. ESC still appplies IMO.

    see my recent post - this applies:

    Exceptional Circumstances
    In exceptional circumstances, arrears notified less than 12 months after the end of the relevant tax year may be considered where both of the following apply:

    • HMRC failed more than once to make proper use of information received about a source of income
    • HMRC allowed tax arrears to build up over two whole tax years
    Anyway they have said that tax payers have 2 years to pay it back (but that's irrelevant because this should be written off).

    THE TAX PAYER CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE INABILITY OF HMRC TO DO ITS JOB
     
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    MyAccountantOnline

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    This is an an employer error but again HMRC would have known of this. ESC still appplies IMO.

    I agree entirely Elaine - if this lady decides she wants us to deal with it thats exactly the basis on which I'd proceed.

    Its astounding/beyond belief that HMRC havent dealt with cases like this properly when they've had the information!:mad::mad::mad:
     
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    M

    MBS Accountants

    The lady I have spoken to is a 62 year old from Devon.
    Her main job is with the NHS as a nurse and does bank shifts as her second job (being taxed at BR).
    She receives a state pension and her tax code on her main job has been adjusted to 87L to reflect.
    She has a demand for underpaid tax for 2008/09 and 2009/10 totalling over £5k which they are asking for as a lump before Christmas. She obviously cannot afford this and is rather distraught.
     
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    David Griffiths

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  • Jun 21, 2008
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    The case that I have been dealing with is a lady who works for a PCT but does both a day shift and a night shift and has been included on the payroll twice, albeit with the same employee reference number.

    She was never asked to complete a P46 for her 'second job'.

    The PCT has applied her tax code against both salaries and hence she has received two personal allowances. The lady has had both jobs for seven years although HMRC have so far only asked for repayment for 2008/9 and 2009/10.

    This amount totals £2,590 and hence HMRC will want this repaid as a lump sum. This will cause hardship to the lady in question.

    Perhaps you have already done so, but I'd point out to the Revenue that it is the responsibility of the employer to deduct the correct amount of tax. It's far from uncommon for employees of health trusts to have two separate payment arrangements but in most cases the employer applies basic rate to the smaller arrangement.

    In this case the employer has given double the normal amount of personal allowances which is clearly incorrect. If they've got it wrong, they should stand the bill.
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    Thanks David - that is what Andrea has been working on but in any case the ESC can be applied because exceptional circs are met:

    Exceptional Circumstances

    In exceptional circumstances, arrears notified less than 12 months after the end of the relevant tax year may be considered where both of the following apply:

    • HMRC failed more than once to make proper use of information received about a source of income

    • HMRC allowed tax arrears to build up over two whole tax years
    We are going to use the above as the main basis of all cases plus 'our precedent' case.

    Other circs such as those you mentioned can also be quoted.

    These also apply to Nicola's case.

    IMO HMRC are bullying people here!!!
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    In this case the employer has given double the normal amount of personal allowances which is clearly incorrect. If they've got it wrong, they should stand the bill.

    HMRC have said:

    If the payment due is £2,000 or more HMRC will not expect you to pay until after the 31 December 2010 and will contact you after this date about how to pay.


    from here:


    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/p800/paye-tax-calcs.htm


    Advice to all cases to quote this and tell HMRC to bugger off!


    We then can get the ESCs off between now and December.


    Again another clear example of HMRC bullying tax payers.


    WHEN WILL HMRC STOP THIS APPALLING BEHAVIOUR?
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    Also see this ....

    If collecting your underpayment through your code would cause you financial difficulty

    It is important that you contact us as soon as possible using the address or phone number on your P800 Tax Calculation. If we agree that collecting the underpayment over one year would cause you financial difficulty we may be able to spread the underpayment over two or three years.



    source:
    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/p800/paye-tax-calcs.htm
     
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    mart.vader

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    Nov 8, 2010
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    I just thought I’d run this past the Tax experts on this forum to see what they thought.

    I am having some problems with HMRC. I am on a low income, but I manage - I have low bills and low expenses. I have a small occupational pension running that pays me £3650 pa and I get £10,200 pa from rent on a property that I own, and from this year, small amounts of interest from savings accounts – probably under £50 pa.

    HMRC used to deduct the tax due on all my income, from my pension. They stopped doing this, I asked them to continue, but they said they could not do it because my pension was too small to allow this any more. They said there was a shortfall of £295. Because of this, I told them I would pay this off as and when I could. They said this was OK and I paid £50 towards the shortfall.

    In around Jan 2010, I got a statement that said my tax liability was nil, but it didn’t mention my £50 payment. So I tried to ring them on and off for several weeks until around March, got no answer, on any of the phone numbers, just music on hold, going to “please try again later” I didn’t pay any more because I didn’t know where my £50 had gone to, and I thought I had nil tax liability.

    In June 2010, I wrote to them and said I had been trying to speak to them since March and asking where my £50 was. They replied in September 2010 and said I now owe them around £628 (around 2 years back tax + interest) and they had been applying interest to the sum.

    They told me I owed them £295 for 2008/09 and £312 (i.e. £362 minus £50) for 2007/08 in back tax, which they had been unable to collect in previous years – this was because “originally the tax owed was transferred to be collected via your PAYE coding however as you (sic) currently not liable to income tax the amount has been put back into your Self Assessment Account”. IIRC, this was the first time they had told me I owed them anything for 2007/08

    I phoned them in October 2010 and said it was unfair – they were charging me interest on money that I was unaware that was owed, only because they were uncontactable. I was told I could appeal the interest, As far as I can recall, I agreed to put aside £100 per month to repay the £600ish bill by next April. They agreed to this and said they would put the details in the post.

    I sent a letter in October 2010 appealing the imposition of interest, saying it was unfair to impose interest on money that they were unable to tell me, was owed.

    When I got their details of the £100 pm payment, they sent me 6 payment slips, it seems that they consider that I have agreed to a payment plan which if I do not stick to, they will take further action.

    I rang them last week and said I did not agree that I was on a payment plan and said I would stop paying and only re-start paying after they told me why they were charging me interest on money that they had not told me, was outstanding.

    I got two letters from them on Friday 04 November, one says that I must pay the arrears of £100 immediately and if I do not keep to the payment plan they will take further action such as taking funds from my bank account, selling my assets at a public auction or registering the debt at county court.

    The other letter, the reply to my appeal, says “the amounts owed could not be collected via your code as you doe (sic) not pay any tax, because of this the amounts owed were put back into the Self Assessment statement and interest was charged.”

    That’s it, that’s the whole explanation as to why they are charging interest ”. and interest was charged” They did not address the fairness of it or otherwise, at all. The interest on £628 is not a huge sum, I think they want £20 in interest, but it does rankle.

    What do you think? Thanks for any advice and sorry for the long post.

    I've just had a look at my SA tax return for 08/09 and I actually had a net income of about £100 for that year, I lived partly on my pension which was mostly cancelled out by the expensess on my rental flat, and partly supported by already taxed savings. and tax-credits.
     
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    Alpha

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    Lady has been on incapacity benefit and in receipt of a works pension for the last 10 years.

    HMRC are now claiming £900 for 2008-9 and 2009-10 and of course £450 for 2010-11.

    She has suffered from mental illness and currently doesn't have a lot of money outside the two incomes mentioned so cannot repay this demand.

    in this case I don't think HMRC have a leg to stand on :)
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    Over £2k demand for gentleman on less than £20k annual income plus miners pension - started to receive in 2006 and P60 each year.

    Clear case of:

    Exceptional Circumstances
    In exceptional circumstances, arrears notified less than 12 months after the end of the relevant tax year may be considered where both of the following apply:

    • HMRC failed more than once to make proper use of information received about a source of income
    • HMRC allowed tax arrears to build up over two whole tax years


    Letter One sent
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    I have just had a look at the history for the lady I think is being dealt with earlier on in this thread, She was put on a K code for the start of this tax year but it was changed week 8 to 174p. I have not received a new notification for her and as her employment is now ended there will be tax due again.

    She needs to phone HMRC and ask them to change the code.

    I think David ([FONT=arial,sans-serif]dp0848[/FONT]) is handling her case and he should be able to work out the position for this year.

    I'm sure he is on hols this week but drop him a PM and he can deal with it and do HMRC's job for them.

    They can't even get it right once they know they have got it wrong.

    Did you send a mail to your MP?

    see here ....

    http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=180731

    thanks and pls spread the word
     
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    russell_anderson

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    Nov 13, 2010
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    My situation is as follows:-

    I took a pension from a previous employment in tax year 2000/2001 and also 3 jobs at various times during that tax year of which my current job was the last.

    Because of this I had to complete a self assessment for Tax Year 2000/01 and my tax return contained salary payments from my 2 temporary jobs in addition to my latest (permanent) job and my pension (I still have a copy of this return).

    I also have a reply from the Tax Office with a tax calculation for 2000/01 which includes my pension.

    Since then I have been taxed under PAYE.
    Each year from 2000/01 until 2009/10, I have received one P60 for my permanent employment and one for my pension.

    For all of these years, the whole of my pension has been taxed with a code of BR.

    During this time, I have received Tax Coding notices for 2001/02 through to 2005/06 for my salary but none since that time.
    I have never received any Tax Coding notice for my pension.

    I reached retirement age in April last year and prior to that date, received a form P161 from the Inland Revenue which I completed giving details of my current employment, my pension and stating that I would be deferring my state pension as I was still in employment.

    On January 6th 2010, I received a letter/Tax Coding notice from the Revenue telling me that the tax code on my pension was being
    changed from BR to D0 as from April 6th 2010.

    On October 21st 2010, I received a P800 from HMRC showing underpayments of £2344.20 for 2008/09 and £2139.40 for 2009/10, making £4483.60 in total.

    I've had the figures checked by one of your kind people who has confirmed that they are correct.

    I'm contemplating an appeal, although many other forums are saying it's a waste of time, but I'm totally confused as I don't know whether to appeal under ESC A19, Pension Payer Error or Misleading HMRC Information!

    However, I did notice that BBC's Panorama programme covered this subject on Monday evening and one of the cases covered (a Mr Douglas Marsh) was identical to my own with Mr Marsh being asked to pay £11,000 in back payments because his pension had been taxed at basic instead of higher rate. On being contacted by Panorama, HMRC withdrew the claim against Mr Marsh!

    I'm already sick to death of:-
    1. The amount of worry this has caused and is causing me.
    2. The amount of time I'm spending going round in circles on how to proceed.
    3. The incompetance of the Inland Revenue.
    4. My own stupidity in assuming that the Revenue could be relied upon to calculate tax correctly!
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    russell_anderson

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    Thanks. I'll let you know if I appeal.
    I've decided that if I do, it will one of the pro formas which combines ESC A19 and Pension Payer Error and I'll leave it to HMRC ro sort out!
    I will also be quoting the case of Mr Marsh from Panorama as a precedent as it is identical to my own.
     
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    Philip Hoyle

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    My case was a guy who'd taken early retirement and had a public sector pension but with a new job alongside. Tax codes were right, PA against pension, BR against job. Upto 2007/8 total income within BR band, so tax was right. In 2008/9, both sources rose to over the HR threshold and again for 2009/10 creating underpayments due to HR tax on a portion of total income over HR threshold. Can't see a way to appeal as tax codes were right according to the info HMRC had at the time. True, they are late in assessing 2008/9 but seem within the 2 year time period which means that the ESC doesn't apply because HMRC didn't know that the guy was going to be HR taxpayer until they received the P60s for 08/9. One that stands by the looks of it.
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    Have you seen my latest post:

    http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=181558

    My view - exceptional circs apply as they did not do rec at end of 2008 / 2009.

    In exceptional circumstances, arrears notified less than 12 months after the end of the relevant tax year may be considered (for write off) where both of the following apply:


    ·HMRC failed more than once to make proper use of information received about a source of income


    ·HMRC allowed tax arrears to build up over two whole tax years

    If they had done the rec in 2009 then two years wouldn't have built up.

    They had the info before.

    Just a thought
     
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    Just had a lovely e-mail back from the Son of a 59 year old lady who had a bad stroke in 1999. Another case of Incapacity benefit & other benefits not being taxed by HMRC - although it seems the HMRC did know she was in receipt of some taxable benefits as she did pay a little tax on a small private pension of £2k - but even without the IB amount, she was underpaying tax!

    He wants me to "Thank Elaine on our behalf" for making an old woman very happy.
     
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    I just read your post about the MP's reply. As you point out, the HMRC have not been doing the PAYE reconciliation process every year.

    The can't have been or the first case you asked me to assist with would never have happened. It is a gentleman who has been in receipt of Incapacity benefit since 2003 and was given the full personal allowance against it on every P60 from 2004-2010.

    In 2006 he started to receive a early retirement pension due to ill-health and again given the full personal allowance against it. In 2007 a second early retirement pension started with a BR tax code.

    Finally in 2010 they HMRC correcthis tax code, and then decide to go back and ask for the unpaid tax.

    Life is hard when your monthly income drops by £70 per month due to a change in tax code, but impossible when they expect you to repay the £70 per month extra you were using to live on over the previous 2+ years due to the wrong tax code
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    It was a conservative MP who confirmed that HMRC have not been doing their job each year.

    This is WRONG!

    And to say that the tax payers affected have to pay up to reduce the deficit is ridiculous!
     
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    russell_anderson

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    As I file absolutely everything, I have all correspondence I have received from the Revenue. I've decided to go ahead with an appeal and will be using a lot of the information you have provided. However, should I also be sending the Revenue a copy of the Self Assessment I completed for the 2000/2001 Tax Return and copies of all the P60s I have received since that time or should I just state in the letter that they have received this information previously?
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    As I file absolutely everything, I have all correspondence I have received from the Revenue. I've decided to go ahead with an appeal and will be using a lot of the information you have provided. However, should I also be sending the Revenue a copy of the Self Assessment I completed for the 2000/2001 Tax Return and copies of all the P60s I have received since that time or should I just state in the letter that they have received this information previously?

    I wouldn't - less is more ...

    And point out that they must have had the P60 info else how have they calculated the underpayments?!
     
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    The case I previous mentioned about the 59 year old lady, after delving deeper I have now discovered they knew she was in receipt of taxable income in the form of IB from DWP, and adjusted her tax code. But this adjustment then continued each year by exactly the same amount. On the Tax bill she has now received for 2008/09 they have added the actual IB amount which was less but left the original higher amount on it too. So I am asking them to remove the duplication and give her a rebate for the overpayment!
     
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    elaine@cheapaccounting

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    The case I previous mentioned about the 59 year old lady, after delving deeper I have now discovered they knew she was in receipt of taxable income in the form of IB from DWP, and adjusted her tax code. But this adjustment then continued each year by exactly the same amount. On the Tax bill she has now received for 2008/09 they have added the actual IB amount but left the original amount on it too. So I am asking them to remove the duplication and give her a rebate for the overpayment!

    well done - great work

    Just shows how bloody incompetent HMRC are of course!

    Don't assume these calcs are correct
     
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    I have an employee of a new client who has just received a tax bill for 2009/10. The previous accountant (who should have retired as he is unable to handle the technology now required), did the P35, P14 etc. for the first time via the internet. (So the client missed out on all the Incentive payments).

    The previous accountant has refused to hand anything over, but from a contact I have with HMRC I have discovered, that over a 3 month period, he submitted 4 incorrect P35's, and 4 incorrect P14's to try and correct the errors, unfortunately all he did was compound them! And this was a Payroll just for 1 employee!

    The HMRC have added the 4 x P14's together - hence the tax bill. I shall now contact the HMRC by letter on behalf of the employee with the correct P60 and explain.... That's the problem with the internet - some things are better corrected manually.

    I managed to reconcile and rebuild the records from the payments made to the employee and HMRC - and submitted a correcting P35. It was easy to do and in a few days the Collectors have confirmed they will no longer be pursuing my new client for the extra tax created by the incorrect P35's submissions.
     
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