Post your case here

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Tom

Can you clarify what the position was 11 years ago on the form P46 and what happened if the employee did not have a form P45 nor complete a form P46.

I believe that is when the poster started in his position.

Just wanted to check that it is the same as the current rules.

Thanks

 

[Tom McClelland]

Tom

Can you clarify what the position was 11 years ago on the form P46 and what happened if the employee did not have a form P45 nor complete a form P46.

I believe that is when the poster started in his position.

Just wanted to check that it is the same as the current rules.

Thanks

OK, I can't state with absolute authority that the rules have never changed, because like everyone else my memory of procedural details from 11 years ago isn't perfect.

But I have no recollection that the position with respect to P46s has ever been any different in the entire 31 years that I've been involved with computer payroll systems. I'm pretty certain that 11 years ago an employee without P45 should have been given a P46 to fill in by their employer, and only if for some reason the employee refused to fill the P46 in would the "default" tax code of BR apply.

But if someone else remembers differently I certainly wouldn't argue the point with them and I would stand corrected.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

and only if for some reason the employee refused to fill the P46 in would the "default" tax code of BR apply.

.

Thanks Tom

I guess we are back to what the facts actually were in this case.

Was a P45 given to the employer?
Was a P46 completed? If yes what did it say and did the employer action it correctly?
If no P46 then did the employer act incorrectly in applying a BR code?

I expect this is exactly what HMRC will seek answer on

Without facts IMO it is difficult to allocate blame to HMRC or the employer.

Of course this is just my opinion.

 

[Judders]

Thanks all.

As said before I cannot recall exactly what occurred before.

However I believe that I am correct in stating that it is an employers responsibility in PAYE to request that a P46 is completed, and to process that correctly when completed.

I am therefore going to suggest that my employer has not operated PAYE correctly as they have failed either to act on info within a P46, or to get the P46 completed.

I know that I would not have refused to complete one. I therefore must conclude that I either did complete one - which was not the processed, or I was never requested to complete one.

Many thanks.

 

[flanajb]

Hi,

I received an under payment for tax year 2006 / 2007. HMRC would have had all of the information presented to them by my employer in 2006.

The underpayment is for £443.74

I am of course going to refuse to pay on the basis that the being PAYE they had all of the information at the time to have performed the tax calculation.

Thanks

 

[inditime]

Hi,


I had received a p800 for 2008-9 and sent 3 letters in and won, I had my outsatnding tax written off. Result.

Now I have a following 2009-10 p800, which is much the same issue that outstanding tax was carried over into that year from the previous one. Will I still need to send in the same type of format letter as previous years?

 

[inditime]

Can anyone tell me what the Taxman is doing about the following years that tax is owed after the previous year has been written off. This is a follow on from my previous post.

I'm not sure what to say in a letter to the taxman about my 2009/10 p800. Does a19 still stand here? Do I have any chance of having my tax written off for these years as they had done for the previous year? This is now a confusing situation, as I'm on a K1245 tax code on my pension, as it seems that the taxman will recoup tax over £2000 via the tax code and not send out demands for payment. Or even give me a chance to pay anything, they just take it all out in tax codes, so it seems.

And I've spent 4.5 hrs on hold last week waiting for someone to answer the HMRC customer helpline. And still not spoken to anyone.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

HMRC are within the time limit for 2009 / 2010 onwards.

ESC A19 doesn't apply.

 

[inditime]

So what youre saying Elaine, is that because the taxman didnt get my code correct for the past 4 years (2008/9 onwards) and im in arrears of £2450 per year up to 2011 (paying K1245 since Apr2011) that I actually owe over £5K AND I pay K1245 for as long as the taxman sees fit.

All through this thread you mention the taxman's fault, but now the taxman is off the hook and Im expected to pay for their mistake. Granted, the figures are correct, no disputing it, but I was informed of this mess for the first time in Jan 2011 and now I have to suffer, like many other I guess.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

So what youre saying Elaine, is that because the taxman didnt get my code correct for the past 4 years (2008/9 onwards) and im in arrears of £2450 per year up to 2011 (paying K1245 since Apr2011) that I actually owe over £5K AND I pay K1245 for as long as the taxman sees fit.

All through this thread you mention the taxman's fault, but now the taxman is off the hook and Im expected to pay for their mistake. Granted, the figures are correct, no disputing it, but I was informed of this mess for the first time in Jan 2011 and now I have to suffer, like many other I guess.

To clarify my position on this matter - I apply the rules set out. The facts are that the tax was owed in all of these cases.

I sought to highlight an extra statutory concessional (ESC) appeal that could be used where HMRC had failed to collect the tax for over 2 years.

So the people who owe tax have had some written off which is better than having to pay all of the tax and that is the best that can be done based upon the rules in place.


HMRC will amend your tax code to collect your underpaid tax until such time as it is all paid. If this results in hard ship then I suggest phoning them to see if they will agree a payment plan.


FYI I have campaigned long and hard on this! I don’t make the rules and a lone voice is not enough to change the rules. In the current economic climate, the appetite of the national is unforgiving as tax is owed.


I guess what I am saying is – if you want a rant I am far from the right person to have a rant at!

 

[Judders]

Hi all,

I quick update on my case (see above for details).

I have managed to get HMRC to confirm in writing that they did not act on information that they held in a timely manner, and they have apologised for that.

However they are stating that they do not believe ESC A19 applies as they believe that I should have known that my tax affairs were not in order.

My position on that is that I was working for a FTSE 100 company under PAYE, and had previously only ever worked under PAYE, and tax had always been correct. Additionally when the error initially occurred it would have meant that I overpaid tax, and I never raised this, additionally the incorrect code had been applied for a decade!

I will therefore move to complaint now, but just wanted to give an update.

Is there any precedent material of whether it is reasonable to believe that tax is in order, this seems like a very subjective area.

One additional note which may help some: I didn't get replies to some letters, so I started posting each letter twice to ensure delivery. This had an unforeseen additional benefit - I got two replies to one letter, one stating "no way", the other stating "yes, we did not act on information that we held in a timely manner", obviously I replied to the second letter stating the reference etc. from that point on.

Regards,

Judders.

 

[Tom McClelland]

One additional note which may help some: I didn't get replies to some letters, so I started posting each letter twice to ensure delivery. This had an unforeseen additional benefit - I got two replies to one letter, one stating "no way", the other stating "yes, we did not act on information that we held in a timely manner", obviously I replied to the second letter stating the reference etc. from that point on.

We need a ROFLMFAO emoticon....

But seriously, this illustrates that HMRC isn't following its own procedures when examining and resolving these cases, when an identical letter can elicit contradictory responses.

 

[Judders]

Oh sorry - forgot to add one more question.

They have now sent me tax return forms to complete for the three years in question! My response here is that I am not challenging the overall calculation, I am just requesting that ESC A19 be applied, therefore do I really need to complete these onerous forms (my father has been ill with cancer so I have been travelling a lot in spare time), I only earn via PAYE.

Do I have to complete the forms, or if the ESC A19 matter is concluded then this requirement goes away?

 

[Judders]

We need a ROFLMFAO emoticon....

But seriously, this illustrates that HMRC isn't following its own procedures when examining and resolving these cases, when an identical letter can elicit contradictory responses.

Yes my thoughts exactly. It seems to be an area with a lot of grey....

 

[Judders]

Is there any precedent material of whether it is reasonable to believe that tax is in order, this seems like a very subjective area.

Hi all,

Any thoughts on my situation?

Would really appreciate you help!

J.Udders.

 

[Digger]

My dads just texted to say - Adjudicator rang him to say - HMRC are "giving up" their claim for over paid TAX on his pension -( so they are returning the extra he was paying this year - and not persuing the previous 3 years over payments) PLUS £30 for inconvenience - PLUS £210 for his payment for a firm to advise his case.

This despite them saying at least 5 or 6 times that he didn't qualify under ESC A19 - he didn't give up - and was surprised that the result came at the adjudicator stage rather than the Ombudsman.

He never denied that he did "owe" them the overpaid TAX - but rather the way it was handled in the ensuing years after the discovery of the issuing of incorrect code- adding injury to insult really as for years he had done it himself with no problems.

I think quite a few people would have given up long before he did - and that's so wrong.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Got one last week

Period - April 2011 - April 2012
Amount owed - £65.60
Sources of income - For that period only a PAYE job

 

[Judders]

Hi all,

Not sure if this is still active or not, but I have an update.

I appealed using ESC A19, but to no avail. With a lot of personal stuff going on I gave up the fight and paid in full.

HMRC sent me some self assessment forms for 08/09, 09/10, and 10/11, which I duly returned, they then sent me a Self Assessment statement (June 13), I paid in full in July 13.

I had lots of to'ing and fro'ing as they then tried to fine me for late payment (despite the fact that I paid straight away), these all got waived - essentially the system sending out automated fines.

Anyway - the reason for my post is that I received a letter from them out of the blue at the weekend.

This letter is a demand for £2k for under paid tax in 08/09!
The letter states that I completed a self assessment in July 2012 (wrong month and year!), which was "too late for a self assessment under normal rules". It references "careless behaviour", and then applies Section 36(1) of Taxes Management Act 1970. Then says that they can make an assessment within 6 years. Then appologises for the delay in dealing with the matter, which was "caused by a change in the procedure for making formal assessments when the time limit for making a self assessment has passed".

So my questions;
- Can they do this. I completed returns as soon as I was sent the forms to do so (so no careless behaviour).
- I sent in the three years forms, and then got a statement that I paid in full, nearly a year ago. I don't understand why one of the years has seemingly been recalculated?
- Can they use 36(1) like this. Seems dubious.

Fed up with this debacle.

Any help appreciated.

 

[mario1952]

Hi all,

Not sure if this is still active or not, but I have an update.

I appealed using ESC A19, but to no avail. With a lot of personal stuff going on I gave up the fight and paid in full.

HMRC sent me some self assessment forms for 08/09, 09/10, and 10/11, which I duly returned, they then sent me a Self Assessment statement (June 13), I paid in full in July 13.

I had lots of to'ing and fro'ing as they then tried to fine me for late payment (despite the fact that I paid straight away), these all got waived - essentially the system sending out automated fines.

Anyway - the reason for my post is that I received a letter from them out of the blue at the weekend.

This letter is a demand for £2k for under paid tax in 08/09!
The letter states that I completed a self assessment in July 2012 (wrong month and year!), which was "too late for a self assessment under normal rules". It references "careless behaviour", and then applies Section 36(1) of Taxes Management Act 1970. Then says that they can make an assessment within 6 years. Then appologises for the delay in dealing with the matter, which was "caused by a change in the procedure for making formal assessments when the time limit for making a self assessment has passed".

So my questions;
- Can they do this. I completed returns as soon as I was sent the forms to do so (so no careless behaviour).
- I sent in the three years forms, and then got a statement that I paid in full, nearly a year ago. I don't understand why one of the years has seemingly been recalculated?
- Can they use 36(1) like this. Seems dubious.

Fed up with this debacle.

Any help appreciated.

I have won both my cases against HMRC, all along they said I had no case, i got phone recordings off them and paperwork that proved certainly in the last case that I had alerted them that my coding was not right yet they did not check it and alter it, in the end the adjudicator at HMRC says I was right, my first case they messed up on my works pension but did not inform me within the time limit, yours looks similar in total I won back approx £4000 each time so £8000 in total, what I would say is go to an accountant now to look at it as it looks complicated, it will be well worth the money believe me.

 

[Bob]

... or contact Elaine @ cheapaccounting.co.uk. After all she started the thread albeit she no longer contributes to this forum