Possible wrongful termination

[Mirror]

Dear all,

I realized that this is my first post and I think that it is unfortunate that it is under such adverse conditions. This is also going to be a bit long, so please bear with me.

I have been working for my employer for a year and a half. They do not have any issues regarding my performance and my appraisals have all been good. The only problems I have had have been with a colleague with whom my relationship isn't good.

Last week, two events took place which seem to have impacted the decision that my employer has taken today, to dismiss me without any notice.

Last week I had a conflict with my colleague which was directly referred to my boss, since other people noticed that we were not speaking to each other and when we did, she was extremely aggressive. My boss spoke to the both of us separately and measures were being taken to address the situation. Still, working alongside her was so stressful that it affected my sleep and blood pressure and I took two days off due to illness.

The second issue is this: I need to produce several reports every day, and I need information from the company's internet banking system. I had been denied access to this service for God knows what reason, and I work every day with every other account the company has (PayPal, Stripe/Alipay) handling cash transactions. In the past, whenever my boss wasn't in the office, he would allow me to use his card to get this information (otherwise, he would get it for me) and I would be able to produce all the reports.

A few months ago I was told IN PASSING that this was not ideal and that whenever my boss wasn't in, I should ask one of the two other card holders to sign in for me. This was strange, as I had been asked to make payments and complete transactions using the same bank accounts in the past, and I took no notice of it. Needless to say, this request to ask others to sign in for me isn't in any rule book or official document.

I saw my boss entering his password a million times and he had given it to me twice before, but I had never used it. Last Tuesday, he was off and I needed to produce lots of reports after Easter, so I logged into his account to get the relevant data. Upon delivering the reports, I was told off for not asking someone else to sign in for me. I apologized and said that I only needed to download two Excel documents (account summaries) that I had stored in the company's servers anyway, and I obviously hadn't done anything inappropriate in any way. I was told that IDEALLY this shouldn't be the case, but nothing else was said.

The next day (Wednesday) my boss spoke to me again about it and told me off, and I apologized. No formal warnings were issued. nothing was signed and I wasn't told that this could or would be escalated in any way.

Given the fact that I had had a very tough day with my colleague on top of all of this, my blood pressure rose during the night, I couldn't sleep at all and the very next morning I had a horrible headache and felt very poorly. I was off on Friday as well. I called in both days to explain the situation.

Well, this morning upon arrival I have been sent to a disciplinary hearing. I have been told that since I haven't worked for the company for two years yet, I don't have any protections and no right to challenge any decisions being made. They have told me that what happened on Tuesday was serious misconduct and they would deliberate regarding what measures should be taken against me.

When I have countered that this was an isolated incidence and that beyond this, no one can say that I am not a good worker or a source of conflict (I have appraisals that prove so), the three people responsible for the hearing have gone elsewhere to deliberate. I have used this time to call my Trade Union representative, who has given me some advice. Mainly:

1) An investigation should have been opened and I should have been informed of it, and suspended from my duties or advised caution during its course.

2) I should have been sent, 48 hours prior to the Disciplinary Hearing, a letter stating why I had been investigated. This letter would have presented the conclusions of the investigation and clearly told me what company rules and regulations I had broken and why.

3) I have a window of 5 working days after receiving the letter to ask for arrangements to be made for my Union representative to be present in the meeting.

4) Due to all of the above points, I have a right to cancel the Hearing.

Minutes later, when the people of the Hearing's panel have returned, I have been presented with a "transcript" of our previous meeting stating that a) I had admitted that they had WARNED me about my misconduct in the past (which is untrue) and that this had happened several times before (also untrue). I have requested the record to be changed and made some annotations, which they have agreed on. I have been given copies of this statement.

After this, I have told them what the TU representative has mentioned to me, and asked for the meeting to end. This has shocked everyone, as they didn't expect it. I have also asked to be given some notice of whether I would be dismissed or suspended, which they have refused to do until they got some legal advice. Then, I have been told to clear my desk/drawers and I have been invited to leave the premises without any further explanation.

I have also been told that a formal letter, adhering to the above-stated protocol, would be sent to me.

About an hour ago, the Director of Operations has called me to tell me that after asking their legal representatives for advice, the company has decided to dismiss me without further notice. I have contacted my Trade Union representative immediately, but he wasn't available.

I just wanted to ask, is this acceptable? I know that if people have worked for less than two years in a company they don't have many rights, but I am surprised that a) no warnings have ever been issued before; b) there have never been any issues with my work; c) this is a single incidence that had never occurred before and it has been blown out of all proportion.

Thus, what can I do? Can I challenge this dismissal? I know my Trade Union can help me, but I'd like to know what I can do and I need some further orientation, as at the moment I am at a loss as to why this has happened - I had never had any problems before, my work was often praised and I have never had any other issues besides some arguments with the aforementioned colleague and a mutual dislike for some of the upper managers in the company, which had never been too serious.

Thank you very much for your attention. Sorry for the post's length.

 

[Graham Tyers]

I got as far as "I have been working for my employer for a year and a half."

Until you have 2 years there is no unfair dismissal I'm afraid and your (ex) employer doesn't have to justify reasons for letting you go.

Unless you can claim discrimination on the grounds of a protected characteristic - your age, gender, religion or disability, then, sorry you won't get anywhere.

 

[Mr D]

I'd say let the union rep handle things, they know the problem best.
But yes, less than 2 years you can be let go.

By what you have said about access I'm be surprised if your boss wasn't up for a disciplinary. Major security breach that would be in some organisations. Not that what happens to the boss has any impact on what happens to you.

 

[Newchodge]

Sorry but I cannot see that there is anything whatsoever that you (or your trade union rep) can do. As a matter of interest, why did you not speak to the union BEFORE going to the meeting?

 

[Mirror]

Thank you very much for your replies. It is what I feared. I have been sent the termination letter in which they blatantly lie and say that I have been accessing my boss's bank account several times, which had prompted my manager to change his password before. these things have never happened and I never agreed to them during our interview.

I am very angry, to be honest. Not furious or beset by impotence, but rather indignant. This is terribly unfair and I am shocked that they would resort to this sort of behaviour. This is low even for their standards!

 

[Mirror]

Sorry but I cannot see that there is anything whatsoever that you (or your trade union rep) can do. As a matter of interest, why did you not speak to the union BEFORE going to the meeting?

Because I have not had any notice, or warnings, or anything. I was told off last week by my manager and that is all. There weren't any hearings or formal warnings issued.

I have literally arrived to work this morning and without a single word, I have been asked to step into the meeting. That's why I am utterly shocked.

 

[Graham Tyers]

It can be a real shock and affects some people deeply. Don't take it personally and remember it's not a reflection on you as a person. You will probably never have any idea what the trigger was for this.

Enjoy a few days off, relax, get your ducks sorted and then go hell for leather at finding your next job knowing a bit more about how it all works (and doesn't).

 

[WaveJumper]

To be honest it sounds like this company has a lot of internal problems of its own, internet security and policies seem to be sadly lacking and I am surprised they have not had a serious security breach.

As much as this must be a terrible shock and experience from what you have described, it defiantly sounds like your better off out of it, not much comfort I know at the moment.

 

[NickGrogan]

I need information from the company's internet banking system. I had been denied access to this service

In the past, whenever my boss wasn't in the office, he would allow me to use his card to get this information (otherwise, he would get it for me) and I would be able to produce all the reports.

A few months ago I was told IN PASSING that this was not ideal and that whenever my boss wasn't in, I should ask one of the two other card holders to sign in for me.

Last Tuesday, he was off and I needed to produce lots of reports after Easter, so I logged into his account to get the relevant data.

1) You were not given access to a system (the reasons why are irrelevant)
2) You and your boss got around this restriction.
3) You were told not to do this and to follow the rules.
4) You ignored this and logged into a system that you were not supposed to.

What did you expect to happen? A clear case for immediate dismissal, I'm not sure why they took so long.

I suspect your manager might be looking for a new job too.

 

[Mirror]

1) You were not given access to a system (the reasons why are irrelevant)
2) You and your boss got around this restriction.
3) You were told not to do this and to follow the rules.
4) You ignored this and logged into a system that you were not supposed to.

What did you expect to happen? A clear case for immediate dismissal, I'm not sure why they took so long.

I suspect your manager might be looking for a new job too.

I would understand this if I hadn't seen cases of serious misconduct in the very same company being ignored. Also, this is NOWHERE in the regulations and when it was convenient for them, they actually asked me to access my boss's account to make payments and complete other transactions (under supervision, of course, but I was managing this anyway).

Now, all of a sudden, this is a problem? OK, I accept it. Still, I have never caused any issues before and I have solved hundreds of problems for these people; my working countless unpaid overtime hours and putting up with abuse should have been factored in when making a decision. The very least I would have expected is for them to follow some kind of procedure, instead of deciding to dismiss me on the spot and lie about what I did, especially when they had ignored it last week and the trigger seems to have been my conflict with another colleague.

You know what? I will just accept this silently and move on. No one ever said that life is fair and this has taught me a good lesson. Live and learn, as they say.

There isn't anything that I can do and you're right: I have brought this upon myself with my careless behaviour and stupid assumptions. I guess I deserve it, even if it is essentially unfair after all the work I've put in that place.

 

[Mr D]

Because I have not had any notice, or warnings, or anything. I was told off last week by my manager and that is all. There weren't any hearings or formal warnings issued.

I have literally arrived to work this morning and without a single word, I have been asked to step into the meeting. That's why I am utterly shocked.

Was not aware you should have notice before being dismissed.
If the company decides to get rid of you it can literally be grab your things you are being escorted out of the door now.

 

[Mr D]

I would understand this if I hadn't seen cases of serious misconduct in the very same company being ignored. Also, this is NOWHERE in the regulations and when it was convenient for them, they actually asked me to access my boss's account to make payments and complete other transactions (under supervision, of course, but I was managing this anyway).

Now, all of a sudden, this is a problem? OK, I accept it. Still, I have never caused any issues before and I have solved hundreds of problems for these people; my working countless unpaid overtime hours and putting up with abuse should have been factored in when making a decision. The very least I would have expected is for them to follow some kind of procedure, instead of deciding to dismiss me on the spot and lie about what I did, especially when they had ignored it last week and the trigger seems to have been my conflict with another colleague.

You know what? I will just accept this silently and move on. No one ever said that life is fair and this has taught me a good lesson. Live and learn, as they say.

There isn't anything that I can do and you're right: I have brought this upon myself with my careless behaviour and stupid assumptions. I guess I deserve it, even if it is essentially unfair after all the work I've put in that place.

Solving hundreds of problems.
Working unpaid overtime

The sort of thing that may be considered when looking to promote someone. Not deal with a security breach.

The company appears to have had some procedures. Including things you bypassed with your boss's agreement.

You may have got different answers on an employee site. Business owners site may well look at the situation different than you.

 

[Mirror]

Solving hundreds of problems.
Working unpaid overtime

The sort of thing that may be considered when looking to promote someone. Not deal with a security breach.

The company appears to have had some procedures. Including things you bypassed with your boss's agreement.

You may have got different answers on an employee site. Business owners site may well look at the situation different than you.

Thank you for your reply. The company had some procedures indeed: the ones I helped to set up and spent hours writing for the employee handbook - which I will not be paid any copyright for, I might add. NOTHING was in their procedures regarding this, and I have only done it once by myself. Before I wrote the procedures, they only had the most general guidelines imaginable. Moreover, as I have said before, in the past they told me to just sign in when it was convenient for them.

Anyway, I have no other option but to move on. Thanks again everyone for your (mostly) kind replies. I really appreciate them.

 

[The Byre]

You are working for idiots. Procedures, discipline, motivation and guidance seems to be idiotic.

You are working in a country where people can be hired and fired on a whim. Even after two years, protection in the UK is close to worthless for employees. The last time I had to terminate somebody's employment (no fault of their own - or mine!) I gave them six months notice and the option to terminate earlier if they required it.

The longer I am a member of this forum, the more I realise just why UK companies often fail to perform and to be able to improve productivity. Companies are made of people and you have to look after them just as you have to look after a car or a house or an aardvark. People are what makes your company function.

Business people seem too often to be obsessed with financing, market share and all sorts of other funky, windswept and kewl things - but it's people that do the books, sweep the yard, make the products, fry the chips, build the houses, fix the cars, write the software, whatever it is that your company is supposed to do.

You can't just wind-up a people-unit and expect them to appear magically at 8am and get switched off at 5pm. They have to actually WANT to do the best for the company. Or as President Eisenhower stated, "Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because they want to do it."

 

[Mr D]

Thank you for your reply. The company had some procedures indeed: the ones I helped to set up and spent hours writing for the employee handbook - which I will not be paid any copyright for, I might add. NOTHING was in their procedures regarding this, and I have only done it once by myself. Before I wrote the procedures, they only had the most general guidelines imaginable. Moreover, as I have said before, in the past they told me to just sign in when it was convenient for them.

Anyway, I have no other option but to move on. Thanks again everyone for your (mostly) kind replies. I really appreciate them.

Of course you don't get paid any copyright for writing procedures. They belong to the company - you do them at company instruction or on company time, they don't belong to you.

 

[Mr D]

You are working for idiots. Procedures, discipline, motivation and guidance seems to be idiotic.

You are working in a country where people can be hired and fired on a whim. Even after two years, protection in the UK is close to worthless for employees. The last time I had to terminate somebody's employment (no fault of their own - or mine!) I gave them six months notice and the option to terminate earlier if they required it.

The longer I am a member of this forum, the more I realise just why UK companies often fail to perform and to be able to improve productivity. Companies are made of people and you have to look after them just as you have to look after a car or a house or an aardvark. People are what makes your company function.

Business people seem too often to be obsessed with financing, market share and all sorts of other funky, windswept and kewl things - but it's people that do the books, sweep the yard, make the products, fry the chips, build the houses, fix the cars, write the software, whatever it is that your company is supposed to do.

You can't just wind-up a people-unit and expect them to appear magically at 8am and get switched off at 5pm. They have to actually WANT to do the best for the company. Or as President Eisenhower stated, "Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because they want to do it."

Hmmmm…. wanting to do the best for the company.

Strange. Most often I have been in the position of not having the authority or access to the strategic data to do the best for the company. Worker bees are not queen bees, much to the annoyance of a few of the worker bees.

 

[Mirror]

You are working for idiots. Procedures, discipline, motivation and guidance seems to be idiotic.

You are working in a country where people can be hired and fired on a whim. Even after two years, protection in the UK is close to worthless for employees. The last time I had to terminate somebody's employment (no fault of their own - or mine!) I gave them six months notice and the option to terminate earlier if they required it.

The longer I am a member of this forum, the more I realise just why UK companies often fail to perform and to be able to improve productivity. Companies are made of people and you have to look after them just as you have to look after a car or a house or an aardvark. People are what makes your company function.

Business people seem too often to be obsessed with financing, market share and all sorts of other funky, windswept and kewl things - but it's people that do the books, sweep the yard, make the products, fry the chips, build the houses, fix the cars, write the software, whatever it is that your company is supposed to do.

You can't just wind-up a people-unit and expect them to appear magically at 8am and get switched off at 5pm. They have to actually WANT to do the best for the company. Or as President Eisenhower stated, "Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because they want to do it."

Thank you very much for your kind words. I really needed them, so I am extremely grateful for them. Especially now that the company has made me aware of the fact that they will refuse to give me a reference. My manager has called me to apologize, saying that he has tried to do as much as possible to defend me but he's been told that if he didn't support my dismissal, he would lose his job as well. I have asked him for at least a personal reference, but he sounded downright terrified and has said the he will ask for permission...

Oh well. I will speak with my Trade Union representative tomorrow to see what can be done. I obviously need a reference if I want to find a new job, so this is a concerning matter.

 

[Mirror]

Of course you don't get paid any copyright for writing procedures. They belong to the company - you do them at company instruction or on company time, they don't belong to you.

Well, my manager did the same for two other companies he worked with, and when he left he was actually given compensation for loss of copyright over the documents that he had created - mind you, he used to work as a lecturer in two colleges, but I don't think that these organisations would operate any differently from most. Anyway, thank you for your opinion.

 

[Mr D]

Well, my manager did the same for two other companies he worked with, and when he left he was actually given compensation for loss of copyright over the documents that he had created - mind you, he used to work as a lecturer in two colleges, but I don't think that these organisations would operate any differently from most. Anyway, thank you for your opinion.

Pretty much everywhere else, you create something for the company it belongs to the company unless they choose to share it. Most don't share - you get paid and you work.

 

[Graham Tyers]

They can't refuse to give you a reference and can't say anything derogatory much beyond "we would not re-employ this person"

Find a friendly business to approach them for a reference to see what they say.

Having you gone with minimal fuss is their priority. You should play along with that and remind them that you finding a new employer easily will help their cause no end.

 

[Newchodge]

No employer is required to provide a reference, but, if they do, the reference must be accurate. You can take action if it states something against you that is not true, your new employer can take action if it states something positive about you that isn't true. For this reason most employers now stick to confirming dates of employment and job title. some may include sickness absences. Very few actually answer the questions posed. For this reason, not getting a reference is not usually a major issue.

 

[Mirror]

Thank you once again for your kind responses. I have appealed the decision and I am awaiting my employer's response. They have gone against their own procedures and I do have a case.

I am terribly upset, though, because I have seen my job advertised today... They want someone to do LESS than I did and they are offering to pay them between £25,000 and £30,000 per year, when they refused to pay me more than £21,000. They have also lifted paragraphs from my CV for the job description they've posted them as part of the online advert, which is in my opinion, scandalous.

I am fuming - even they themselves admitted that my job was flawless and yet, they treated me appallingly and have dismissed me unjustly and hurriedly, using allegations that they cannot prove. Well, I think I should go to bed - I am obviously losing my mind.

I do apologize if I sound irrational. I am very upset right now.

 

[NickGrogan]

The fact that you don't seem to realise what you've done wrong or take any responsibility for your actions is a bit worrying,

 

[Mirror]

The fact that you don't seem to realise what you've done wrong or take any responsibility for your actions is a bit worrying,

*sigh* I fully understand that what I did was wrong. However, I also know that a) I have never, ever, ever done anything illegal and I have always been an excellent worker (they said so themselves) and b) they don't have any proof of malicious intent of any kind. I was initially given my manager's card so I could check things when he wasn't there WITH EVERYONE'S KNOWLEDGE AND APPROVAL, and I was told in passing that it would be better to ask somebody else. Nothing was set in stone.

Furthermore, I simply downloaded a list of balances as an Excel file and saved them in a common folder that all the stakeholders can have access to. I couldn't have made any financial transactions of any kind unless I got authorization from signatories, which I didn't get and most definitely didn't request.

I have ONLY ONCE done something that could be a matter of concern and even then, I never misused, shared, divulged or extracted information from the company. I simply did my job and my error ought to have been dealt with a formal warning and not a dismissal.

 

[NickGrogan]

DId anyone say that you did anything illegal?

Your reply is full of totally irrelevant side issues, not what you were fired for.

You'll do a lot better in your next job if you learn from your mistakes, rather than denying them.

 

[Mirror]

DId anyone say that you did anything illegal?

Your reply is full of totally irrelevant side issues, not what you were fired for.

You'll do a lot better in your next job if you learn from your mistakes, rather than denying them.

Oh well, I guess that we shall never agree regarding this matter. Anyway, I'd like to thank you for your contributions, as they have given me a different perspective from which I can (and have definitely) learned.