Performing Rights Licence for Buskers?

[Lucan Unlordly]

No, not a career change but a conversation on a Facebook page regarding sources of income for the local council who, according to their website, require Buskers to have a PRS Licence and a Street Traders Licence if they want to sell CD's.

Is this usual practice?

PS:...and possibly Public Liability Insurance as well.

Hi-Viz, Hard Hat and Steel Toe Cap Boots optional

 

[Hughj11]

Hey,

To play music live you will need a PRS Licence, this is very standard as it's what it was designed for.

I can't speak much for the Street Trader Licence but I would assume so, along with a busking licence if applicable for that council.

 

[simon field]

Hey,

To play music live you will need a PRS Licence, this is very standard as it's what it was designed for..

No you won’t, unless you’re playing somebody else’s music.

 

[Hughj11]

No you won’t, unless you’re playing somebody else’s music.

If you are playing original pieces of music, you should probably be a member of PRS anyway. Of course you only need a licence to play copyrighted music if you play music you do not own the copyright to.

 

[japancool]

You could always do a bit of Brahms, Mozart, Beethovan, that sort of thing.

 

[paulears]

The PRS licence is a business arrangement between consumers of music and producers of it. It is absolutely nothing to do with the Council, and while it's nice they show an interest, it is way outside their remit. It's a civil thing anyway - the creators appoint a collector to represent them to recover what they are due. They are a private organisation tasked with taking people to court ion they have to. Having or not having a licence is a dispute process between members of the public, with an agent acting for them. A licence the Council themselves issue is a different matter - so the waste collectors licence etc. A Council owned Marina have no right to demand boat owners have a radio licence - and plenty don't.

PRS have a special Buskers scheme in London that covers the places busking is permitted - Covent Garden, the underground etc. No other busking licence exists to even get. what DOES exist is the relatively new combined PRS/PPL live music licence - but the bad news is prices are not a list - they're based on time and exposure to quantities of people, so you have to complete a form or talk to them to get a price. I'm surprised the Council didn't know this - it's not really news. PRS and PPL have got together in an alliance before.

 

[Mr D]

Street trader license allows the council to limit where and what happens on any one day.
So may allow a south american singer to set up in a certain spot on Monday and have a mime set up in the same spot on Tuesday.
What they don't want is the flow of people obstructed by crowds or by equipment.

 

[paulears]

The street trader licence is under their control - after all, they issue the pieces of paper - but PRS doesn't apply because you could have permission from the rights holder, like the case where Andrew Lloyd Webber's mum told somebody they could use his music, so they did! I could tell a busker they can play a piece of my music and PRS would have no jurisdiction at all. The Council just don't understand rights.

Like the stuff about security cameras - the current law on photographs allows anyone to take pictures of everyone on public land, and land they control. No permission required - but everyone is going heavy on permissions, for things you don't need permission for - to be socially balanced, and rights aware - even when there is no right! The stuff about putting signs up warning people they are being video recorded. Public property has no such right required. It's sometimes quite funny to listen to the rubbish in the papers and on TV.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I don't know the in's and out's of the Councils involvement, if any, but the romance of a scruffy urchin sitting on a bag full of his worldly goods, dog alongside, cap at his feet, knocking out a few tunes on a banged out guitar to a small assembly who say 'you should be in a recording studio' is a far cry from PRS and Street traders licences.

The Facebook thread is about the council trying to balance budgets by charging for just about anything that moves. Something feels intrinsically wrong when a 14 year old on plugging his Stratocaster into a battery driven amp, absolutely nails a couple of classic tracks and spreads a bit of joy to a varied crowd, many of whom probably think that Carlos Santana is an Argentinian centre forward, should actually be paying a hundred quid or so for the privilege.

 

[paulears]

Yes I understand. So would a tenner be too much, or maybe just a quid? Where does fairness start? This is ALWAYS the problem, but in these covid times, many musicians who are usually self-employed have earned nothing from performing. Metallica tried to do a freebie gig live on a Facebook (or one of the other big platforms) They sounded so much like Metaliica, that the copyright system kicked in and replaced their live sound with cows mooing and ducks quacking. They wanted to do it free - but the System designed to provide their income prevented it.

We always do any discussion on rights badly - everyone wants their own protected, but wants others eroded. Use the Santana example. What actually is it that has made Santana's income his adult life? Music is the simple answer. Let's assume that you are a welder. You're very good at welding, and because you have a particular style of welding - you are in demand. You sit in your workshop and you make gate after gate, fence after fence - and you even get a chance to be welder of the year. You have a choice. You can weld to order, and people pay you and wander off with your ornamental gate. Or maybe you knock up a few hundred and hand them out to strangers who promise they can sell them at markets all over your county, and you'll get the money when they're sold and the money collected. You don't know the name of the people who have them, and don't know who bought them. You might not even realise a pile went on a ship and are being sold in Africa. Your workshop is empty, the work all gone. How does this pay the bills you have? Maybe one of them gets given free of charge to gate off a children's home, or maybe the businessman who runs the children's home's own house? They're gates - why are you worried, they're not saving people's lives, and they're just a bit of metal that will go rusty eventually. Maybe they're being used to keep crocodiles out of a 14 yr olds back garden.

Is that blacksmith a bad person if he tries to find out who has his gates and tries to get a few quid out of them for the things he made, that they have, but didn't pay for?

Music IS a commodity. I was rather pleased I was due of £15K for the use of mine - but I've been knocked backwards by a distributer who decided not to pay me out. No fifteen grand. It's only music - it doesn't matter. Five million people have heard it and clicked the buttons, and that is worth something like $0.00238374 per play. That's fifteen grand I'd have paid tax on - the Government considering royalties a valid income stream, so please forgive me when I don't subscribe to any of the good cause excuses. Whatever business you are in - there will be something you do, or have that is worth something to others. Thats what business people do. Market our assets to people who want them. I fail to see how artistic products should be different. I think it's a bit like a lease. If your home is leasehold - you consider it's yours, but of course the reality is it's yours subject to constraints - time, circumstances etc. Same with music. You might own the plastic the music is on, but you do not own the music - it's kind of leased to you.

I've just fell out with a guy on Facebook who bangs on about copyright in his images and gets really angry that he doesn't get credit, or people repost them. I pointed out that the copyright on his dad's photos had expired years back as he died before pre-WW2, and 70 years was all he, as the son, got. His dad's pictures are now in the public domain. He assumed the pictures were his to hand down to his kids. He got a shock to discover anyone could use them now - so rights do have expiry dates.

I find the entire subject fascinating - but after having lost over fifteen grand and it's still climbing - I'm less willing to just give it away any more.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Musicians, like most Artists are so wrapped up with creativity that the business side is often overlooked. If PRS addresses that in some way then great. If they want their music heard and PRS gets in the way, then tough.

 

[paulears]

PRS have had a system for years - called clause 7F - where any artiste can opt to take a title out of their control. It's normally done when they can make more money by direct deals - so think Abba and Mamma Mia, that kind of thing.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Your obviously in the game Paul so I'll ask the question 'why are so many extremely talented musicians unable to replicate the music they play on stage on the CD they sell you after the Gig?'
Accepting the difference between Live and Studio recordings, I'm often amazed at how much of the atmosphere of a song is lost in conversion. Too much technology in the hands of people who don't know what they are doing perhaps?

 

[paulears]

Ooh. That’s a fair, but uncomfortable question. There are three essential recording types. The live album. It’s now so easy to record live gigs that you hang a MacBook onto the mixer and it records every sound source, plus a few audience mics. Very few bands would just mix that and distribute it. Let’s use my band as an example. We are a beach boys tribute band, and I like to think not a bad one, but we are a four piece, which means as we don’t use tracks, we have a maximum of four voices, and four instruments. Guitar, keys, bass and drums in our case. Even with cleverness, the keys guy only has two hands, so if he plays the little sax riff, the piano stops for a few seconds. We might have to miss off the little guitar twangy bit too. If a harmony should have more than four voices, we’re stuck. Our merch CDS have the extra guitar bit, and the keys don’t stop for the sax. In a couple of songs we might have two Ian’s. We made the decision to keep our live CD very much the same. Trouble is, when you listen back in the studio, I spot a bum bass note, a low Db that should have been a C. Nobody noticed, but I can fix it, so do I? Hell yes. The guitarist. Re records his part in a few places, because he can, and then the drummer notices mistakes as does the keys player. When you fix these, you can, and it happens to every band, get to the point where you have a live recording with every track bar the audience mics replaced. It sounds perfect but not live. Genesis offered CDs of every live show, but the result was so good it didn’t sound like the live event I went to.

When I play live, I make mistakes. Hopefully not many, but I’m kind of torn between fixing them and leaving them. I sit in my studio and know that with one mouse click I can fix that dodgy note. What would you do? Most live recordings nowadays are tweaked and polished.

Remember that many live shows feature tracks. Just a few, or lots, so another argument as to what live even means? We’ve always resisted tracks, but frankly, our set which can go to 2x 60 mins is limited by the song we can’t do. Those that even the real beach boys avoid because they need more people, or tracks. Months in the studio and impossible on stage. So we could add these songs. Luckily they’re not essential songs for us, but tracks would solve the problem. Then you get the next hot topic. How about we record everyone’s vocal part and instrument, and then if I have a sore throat the sound guy could mute my croaky voice and use the recorded on, or same with the guitarists sore finger. At what point do you say no?

years back we supported a chart topping band. I say band, but that’s taking the P. They sang along with their CD. They played their greatest hits CD and mimed the entire show. That was a rasputin moment for us.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I'll post a fuller reply later but my initial thoughts are, does this mean that the bands in the 60's either didn't have this technology, didn't feel the need to go that far or were generally better musicians? A mate of mine who claims to have seen a lot of bands live when they were starting out, the Stones etc., says they wouldn't have survived in front of a live audience if they weren't accomplished musicians.

 

[paulears]

Musicianship hasn't changed - in many ways, there is scope nowadays to be less a traditional musician and more a technologist. Ed Shearan is a very good example. He's a master of the looper pedals and other gizmos, and they are nowhere as simple to operate seamlessly as he makes it look.

One thing that has made it better is monitoring. The Stones and the Beatles had major problems live.They sang and played their instruments and could hear NOTHING. They had no idea if they were in tune or not. Watch a modern band who were around in those times - The Eagles are a good one - you'll see the guitarists constantly checking tuning between songs, or even swapping guitars, with their own guitar techs handing them a fresh one so they don't have to tune. Some are even playing the 60s/70s guitar they had then. If they need tuning now, they needed tuning then - so some of those live shows would have been terribly nasty. Could John Lennon hear what he was playing? I doubt it. I use in-ears, because I like it quiet - but on one gig, the pack broke and I played the entire second half 60s style - no monitors and no sound. Because we sing and play pretty non-stop in every song, I got to the end of one song - and only then looked at my left hand - on the wrong note Ab not A. I had played the entire thing one note lower than it should have been played and it must have sounded crap. Remember the UK entry in Eurovision one year where it was out of tune - it just shows that unless you get the right things in your ears, what comes out your mouth can be very odd. Your mate is half right. We used to play lots of festivals - and the sound for the bands is the worst experience you can get. There is no time at all for sound checks, and often the best you get is what they call a line check - as in when you speak or play - it comes up on the desk, and the audience will be able to hear it. If they stick the drummers voice in your ears, or your floor monitor at deafening volume - what can you do? It looks naff to start asking for more of this, less of this mid set - so you grit your teeth and make the best of it. It takes the front of house guy all of your first song to get a rough balance for the audience and you have no idea at all if that is good or bad - your manager or record company rep will be arranging them if it's not good. All you care about is yourself - and you get to making eye contact with the monitor guy in the wings - pointing at the guitar and pointing up? You get a nod, and if you are lucky, your guitar suddenly perks up and you breath again!

The Stones and the Beatles had nowhere near this level of facilities - so yo learned your bit, walks out and played it, hoping the others did the same. Sometimes it would have gone wrong - badly. The audience loved the overall thing. Some well known musicians were and still are inept. Their fader would be on zero more often than turned up. Didn't and doesn't matter. Watch many big name bands, as a musician yourself and you spot fingers not in the right place, or impossibly long sung phrases with no breaths. Next step is to see if you can watch the drummer starting each song - common for the drummer to be the one to hear in his ears 1,2,3,4 - you can't stick that through the speakers - it kind of gives the game away.

One of the acts we worked with for years was a great show - always rebooked. Audiences always up out of their theatre seats clapping. I asked one of the happy crowd on their way home if they had a good time? Best show ever - brilliant. I asked, what did you think of the drummer? Great, they'd say. There wasn't one. They never had a drummer - the drums and later the bass too were on track. Then to cut money even more, they stuck their tour manager on stage with a pile of broken keyboards and synths and he jumped up and down and sang into an unconnected mic - he had a great time and was always an outrageous mimer to the pre-recorded keys track. Nobody ever noticed. The band even had a sound check track that would be used in the afternoon to fool the theatre staff. It never did of course. You'd sit in the crew room hearing a thump thump thump from a kick drum for a couple of minutes, then realise there was drum kit!

All smoke and magic. The audience don't care.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

I find it rather positive of a council to make sure they have a PRS licence, I doubt they are breaking any laws in asking for it to be seen and it does something to prove they are law abiding people rather than chancer's who may well break the councils own laws

The rights and wrongs of the way the PRS does there business is another matter

 

[paulears]

They should also check you have a TV licence too, or would that be too intrusive?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

A mate of mine who claims to have seen a lot of bands live when they were starting out, the Stones etc., says they wouldn't have survived in front of a live audience if they weren't accomplished musicians.

I stopped going to Stones gigs when they started charging for tickets.

A long time ago I had a regular client for whom I took photographs during recording sessions. The record label used them on the backs of sleeves, Sitting in the studio during takes some recordings sounded good while others were rather thin to my ears. After mixing they all sounded brilliant.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Musicianship hasn't changed - in many ways, there is scope nowadays to be less a traditional musician and more a technologist. Ed Shearan is a very good example. He's a master of the looper pedals and other gizmos, and they are nowhere as simple to operate seamlessly as he makes it look.

One thing that has made it better is monitoring. The Stones and the Beatles had major problems live.They sang and played their instruments and could hear NOTHING. They had no idea if they were in tune or not. Watch a modern band who were around in those times - The Eagles are a good one - you'll see the guitarists constantly checking tuning between songs, or even swapping guitars, with their own guitar techs handing them a fresh one so they don't have to tune. Some are even playing the 60s/70s guitar they had then. If they need tuning now, they needed tuning then - so some of those live shows would have been terribly nasty. Could John Lennon hear what he was playing? I doubt it. I use in-ears, because I like it quiet - but on one gig, the pack broke and I played the entire second half 60s style - no monitors and no sound. Because we sing and play pretty non-stop in every song, I got to the end of one song - and only then looked at my left hand - on the wrong note Ab not A. I had played the entire thing one note lower than it should have been played and it must have sounded crap. Remember the UK entry in Eurovision one year where it was out of tune - it just shows that unless you get the right things in your ears, what comes out your mouth can be very odd. Your mate is half right. We used to play lots of festivals - and the sound for the bands is the worst experience you can get. There is no time at all for sound checks, and often the best you get is what they call a line check - as in when you speak or play - it comes up on the desk, and the audience will be able to hear it. If they stick the drummers voice in your ears, or your floor monitor at deafening volume - what can you do? It looks naff to start asking for more of this, less of this mid set - so you grit your teeth and make the best of it. It takes the front of house guy all of your first song to get a rough balance for the audience and you have no idea at all if that is good or bad - your manager or record company rep will be arranging them if it's not good. All you care about is yourself - and you get to making eye contact with the monitor guy in the wings - pointing at the guitar and pointing up? You get a nod, and if you are lucky, your guitar suddenly perks up and you breath again!

The Stones and the Beatles had nowhere near this level of facilities - so yo learned your bit, walks out and played it, hoping the others did the same. Sometimes it would have gone wrong - badly. The audience loved the overall thing. Some well known musicians were and still are inept. Their fader would be on zero more often than turned up. Didn't and doesn't matter. Watch many big name bands, as a musician yourself and you spot fingers not in the right place, or impossibly long sung phrases with no breaths. Next step is to see if you can watch the drummer starting each song - common for the drummer to be the one to hear in his ears 1,2,3,4 - you can't stick that through the speakers - it kind of gives the game away.

One of the acts we worked with for years was a great show - always rebooked. Audiences always up out of their theatre seats clapping. I asked one of the happy crowd on their way home if they had a good time? Best show ever - brilliant. I asked, what did you think of the drummer? Great, they'd say. There wasn't one. They never had a drummer - the drums and later the bass too were on track. Then to cut money even more, they stuck their tour manager on stage with a pile of broken keyboards and synths and he jumped up and down and sang into an unconnected mic - he had a great time and was always an outrageous mimer to the pre-recorded keys track. Nobody ever noticed. The band even had a sound check track that would be used in the afternoon to fool the theatre staff. It never did of course. You'd sit in the crew room hearing a thump thump thump from a kick drum for a couple of minutes, then realise there was drum kit!

All smoke and magic. The audience don't care.

Hands up, I don't understand the 'in ears' thing. Would a pub band use them or just those on a bigger stage?

Re your previous post and rectifying mistakes. Would I notice if I heard the original? Is it the finite detail that's been removed that over sanitises the CD?

Way, way back in 2019 I saw a fantastic guitarist doing a solo acoustic set, no looper, in a tiny Blues club. The mate I took along bought a CD which he gave me 3 days later as it wasn't what we'd just seen. In fairness this guy often plays with a band.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I stopped going to Stones gigs when they started charging for tickets.

A long time ago I had a regular client for whom I took photographs during recording sessions. The record label used them on the backs of sleeves, Sitting in the studio during takes some recordings sounded good while others were rather thin to my ears. After mixing they all sounded brilliant.

Another mate of mine was working the doors when the Stones stayed at the Hilton many years ago. Long story short, having done Ronnie a favour, he spent the afternoon drinking and smoking with the band and managed to scrounge 19 tickets for the concert at Wembley which he sold for £300. He saw them again last time they played London (the 02?) and took his Grandson along. Two tickets for £300!

 

[paulears]

Hands up, I don't understand the 'in ears' thing. Would a pub band use them or just those on a bigger stage?

Sorry - wedge shaped speakers on the floor vs earbud style things that go in your ears, and those that value their hearing either have foam that shapes to your ears, or proper moulds - you go and have a fitting with an audiologist, who squirts goo in your ears, and then the headphones are put into the mould - stuff those in and they're earplugs, that make noise. As the ONLY thing you can then hear, is electronic, having the wrong thing in it buggers you up totally.

Wedges on the floor can be fine - but for the pub band it makes the playing areas insanely loud - as the guitarists all turn up to 11 (spinal tap moment) and then you have to go louder, and then the drummer plays harder and you turn up more?

On a small stage for a pub band, you can all hear each other - so monitors could just be to get voices above the drums and guitar. On a festival size stage - you are so far from each other, you need them! This is a typical stage - my bass amp is probably about 8m behind me - and the keyboard player maybe 12 m to my left - the drummer is there somewhere - so in my ears I have a mix of the 4 people and the things we're playing. There are monitors on the floor - which they keyboard player was happy with. This gig, at the F1 in Abu Dhabi had the budget for our sound guy too - so he is to my right just to the left of the camera. Without the gadgets, there is no way in the world you can sing 4 part harmony in tune. The PA, dangling from the roof - points at the audience, not us. At least now the sound desks have memories. Back in the 70s, when I started - I remember being impressed with Slade's PA system. They had two column speakers each side, and two 100W amps. Our PA system we tour with now has a total of around 16KWatts's worth of amplifiers. Scary!

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Another mate of mine was working the doors when the Stones stayed at the Hilton many years ago. Long story short, having done Ronnie a favour,

The Royal College of Art had weekly "Bar Parties" which I often gate crashed despite not being a student there. It was where Charlie Watts met his wife Shirley.

When I first started going out with my now wife she had a room as a lodger in a house in Fulham. Shirley was the previous occupant. She, Charlie and the other Stones often popped back for a coffee.