Pay by results - SEO

[NickGrogan]

I have a number of domains that I've registered but never developed. They have little or no content and therefore no traffic.

Ideally I'd like to give a web design/SEO company access to the domain, let them build a site using wordpress or whatever other CMS system they like, create the content, like to social media and develop the domains.

When the domains reach an agreed level of traffic, eg. 300 visitors per month they are paid a fixed fee.

Does anyone offer this service?
Has anyone used a service like this?

 

[zigojacko]

We've been known to offer a variety of programmes including 'pay on targets' and 'commission based' pricing models.

So, just to get this straight... You want websites designed, developed, optimised and not have to pay anything until they reach X amount of visitors per month...?

 

[NickGrogan]

So, just to get this straight... You want websites designed, developed, optimised and not have to pay anything until they reach X amount of visitors per month...?

Ideally, yes. If a company is confident it can deliver, everyone wins. If they can't deliver, why would I want to use them?

 

[fisicx]

Can't see anyone being the slightest bit interested in this. I could go buy a similar domain name, install WP, add the content and keep all the earnings.

Edit: just had as better idea. I will build a site, pay $10/month for traffic, collect the money from you and stop paying for traffic.

 

[zigojacko]

Ideally, yes. If a company is confident it can deliver, everyone wins. If they can't deliver, why would I want to use them?

Because you don't value the expertise and time from a professional that has spent years perfecting their skillset which doesn't make you a good client to work for.

Out of interest, when targets are reached, what would be an example of the "fixed" fee you suggest? I presume you'd be happy to settle at a figure or £thousands to pay for all the time and expertise that has gone into the design, development and marketing of the websites...?

 

[NickGrogan]

Can't see anyone being the slightest bit interested in this. I could go buy a similar domain name, install WP, add the content and keep all the earnings.

Edit: just had as better idea. I will build a site, pay $10/month for traffic, collect the money from you and stop paying for traffic.

And I can crank up Photoshop and Dreamweaver and call myself a web designer, doesn't make me one though does it. Using your logic, why would a web designer/seo work for anyone? They can just duplicate every business, right.

Analytics will show where the traffic is coming from, it's not rocket science.

 

[NickGrogan]

Because you don't value the expertise and time from a professional that has spent years perfecting their skillset which doesn't make you a good client to work for.

Out of interest, when targets are reached, what would be an example of the "fixed" fee you suggest? I presume you'd be happy to settle at a figure or £thousands to pay for all the time and expertise that has gone into the design, development and marketing of the websites...?

If the professional has perfected their skillset, reaching a mutually agreed target shouldn't be a problem. If they can't achieve a goal that they've agreed to, maybe their skillset needs some work.

Yes, I am more than happy to pay for expertise, time not so much. If it takes someone 3 hours to achieve what someone else takes 3 days to do, should I pay the slower person more?

Regarding fees, £100 to £1'000s, depending on agreed targets.

 

[fisicx]

Yes they can duplicate any business but the ROI is poor. Ziggy summed it up, the time and effort required to build the site, create the content and do the marketing would cost a lot more than you would be prepared to spend.

Remember as well, website design, content creation and SEO are three different trades.

 

[jdluckhurst]

They can just duplicate every business, right.

You would be surprised at how many SEO companies do actually do this on the side!

I wouldn't be interested in designing and building the site but if you would like to discuss SEO then just PM me. It would obviously be fully dependant on the fee. I think you will struggle to find anyone that will design and build a site along with SEO without any sort of retainer. They would probably just do it themselves or want a sizeable equity deal.

 

[UKSBD]

What else are you providing apart from the domain?
Will you provide a range of images, content for pages, trackable phone numbers, physical location address, etc.

 

[zigojacko]

If the professional has perfected their skillset, reaching a mutually agreed target shouldn't be a problem. If they can't achieve a goal that they've agreed to, maybe their skillset needs some work.

You're missing the point.

Businesses invest heavily in expertise. Expertise delivers results.

In order to create an awesome web presence that delivers, this requires said expertise.

You've valued said expertise at precisely zilch until you get what you want. Hitting the targets isn't the issue here, the issue is you're expecting someone to work their ass off for nothing for X months whilst 100% risk free - heck, you could even not pay anything and change your mind / walk away.

Yes, I am more than happy to pay for expertise, time not so much. If it takes someone 3 hours to achieve what someone else takes 3 days to do, should I pay the slower person more?

A flawed attitude again. You should be prepared to pay for quality that delivers the best return. The best return rarely derives from the quickest turnaround. Hundreds of experienced web developers will tell you how many weeks go into extensive app/site testing to ensure everything is perfect.

Regarding fees, £100 to £1'000s, depending on agreed targets.

Give us some examples then of proposed targets, you're going to have make this substantially more attractive if you want anyone to bite.

 

[HorseLatitudes]

If the professional has perfected their skillset, reaching a mutually agreed target shouldn't be a problem. If they can't achieve a goal that they've agreed to, maybe their skillset needs some work.

Yes, I am more than happy to pay for expertise, time not so much. If it takes someone 3 hours to achieve what someone else takes 3 days to do, should I pay the slower person more?

Regarding fees, £100 to £1'000s, depending on agreed targets.

The problem is customers would have drastically differing opinions on what would be an acceptable target, in my opinion.

People who know nothing about web design, in the main, usually expect the world for very little outlay.

Please keep us updated on how this pans out though. If you can find someone who will take up your offer I might try and set up something similar with Camelot or whoever runs the National Lottery these days.

 

[HorseLatitudes]

If the professional has perfected their skillset, reaching a mutually agreed target shouldn't be a problem. If they can't achieve a goal that they've agreed to, maybe their skillset needs some work.

Yes, I am more than happy to pay for expertise, time not so much. If it takes someone 3 hours to achieve what someone else takes 3 days to do, should I pay the slower person more?

Regarding fees, £100 to £1'000s, depending on agreed targets.

I bet Da Vinci is spinning in his grave

 

[Ste Hughes]

NickGrogan,

I don't know what you do for a living but would you do it on the hope that you get paid?

I'd be interested in what the fee you were thinking of paying is.

Also:

Using your logic, why would a web designer/seo work for anyone? They can just duplicate every business, right.

I make more per month through ranking micro niche affiliate sites than I do client SEO projects, I imagine most SEO's do something similar.

If it takes someone 3 hours to achieve what someone else takes 3 days to do, should I pay the slower person more?

Surely you would pay the person who did the better job. I could rank your sites in less than a week but the after you pay me you will probably be de-indexed. Or, I could do a proper job, it may take 2 months but you will be there for much longer and at no risk from penalties.

If you are going to hire a SEO company look at their portfolio, ask them what rankings they have achieved and ask for some testimonials and then follow them up. Any company worth their salt will not be the least bit interested in your offer, but you will get plenty of people who can rank you short term (leading to a ban) with GSA SER/Scrapebox/Sape links and other naughty stuff.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

...it's not rocket science.

Well then, why bother to involve anyone else...?

 

[Bill1954]

I'm no web designer but even I know that you can go places and hire a botnet that will give you 30000 hits a month. You wont make any money from it but if traffic is your goal.......

 

[NickGrogan]

A lot of strawman arguments here,

@WeblinkPlus - the selective quote actually refers to tracking traffic through Analytics. This is easy, and not something I'm asking anyone to do for me.

@Ste Hughes - Yes I do work on results. Making adsense sites and ranking in Google is not the same a running complex business. It's interesting that some people see web design as a profession, but that they can copy any other business in their spare time.

@HorseLatitudes So you think Da Vinci would take longer than another artist to produce the same piece of work? You might want to take a look at how much he achieved in his life, bet he didn't waste much time.

I have said several times that targets would be agreed. This means that you and I agree they are realistic for the investment.

@zigojacko "You've valued said expertise at precisely zilch until you get what you want. " - that is correct. If someone is an expert, but can't deliver an agreed target, what am I paying them for?

"You should be prepared to pay for quality that delivers the best return." And if the return is identical as in this case, then I should pay the person who takes longer more. Why?



Imagine you hire a pianist (someone with expertise) to play at an event. You agree on a complex piece of music and a substantial fee. The pianist turns up, plays Chopsticks, says that the other piece of music was too hard, and requests full payment. What would you do?

 

[NickGrogan]

What else are you providing apart from the domain?
Will you provide a range of images, content for pages, trackable phone numbers, physical location address, etc.

All of the above, if required.

 

[sirearl]

I have a number of domains that I've registered but never developed. They have little or no content and therefore no traffic.

Ideally I'd like to give a web design/SEO company access to the domain, let them build a site using wordpress or whatever other CMS system they like, create the content, like to social media and develop the domains.

When the domains reach an agreed level of traffic, eg. 300 visitors per month they are paid a fixed fee.

Does anyone offer this service?
Has anyone used a service like this?

I have offered a similar deal provided the business is a viable entity.

My charges have always been 50% of net profits.

Taking an idea and turning it into a viable business is no easy task..

 

[NickGrogan]

All the domains relate to my core business, so this is a viable entity.

Could work on shared profit basis, PM me your site details.

Thanks

 

[Ste Hughes]

@Ste Hughes - Yes I do work on results. Making adsense sites and ranking in Google is not the same a running complex business. It's interesting that some people see web design as a profession, but that they can copy any other business in their spare time.

When people talk about what some web designers are talking about, they are not replicating your business. They are replicating your site and selling leaders to your competitors at their own rate. Or ranking the site to the first page and renting it out to highest bidder.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

Taking an idea and turning it into a viable business is no easy task..

All the more difficult when you're senile...

 

[UKSBD]

What sort of timescale are you looking at and would you just pull out if it wasn't working?

I wouldn't think people would like it if they did the groundwork, but you pulled the plug before it started performing and still benefited from the foundations being in place.

What are the domains and target markets/industries/products (feel free to PM me if you don't want to say here)

 

[Alan]

The flaw in the concept is that many web designers and SEOs that are any good are too busy doing work that they are either getting paid for or that is earning them very good money from their own online ventures.

@sirearl suggests a profit share, but at 50% that seems low, considering the relative contributions.

 

[sirearl]

@sirearl suggests a profit share, but at 50% that seems low, considering the relative contributions.

I suspect you do not understand how it works for the SEO.

An income for life is always going to win over a lump sum.

 

[Alan]

My comment was about relative values. The skill is with the web designer / SEO not the domain owner, so the share out of 50% seems overly generous to the domain owner.

Also, SEO to some extent is an ongoing activity.

 

[NickGrogan]

My comment was about relative values. The skill is with the web designer / SEO not the domain owner, so the share out of 50% seems overly generous to the domain owner.

So in you're saying if you made a website for a lawyer for example, and they went on to bill millions in fees from leads from that site, that the "skill" is with you, and your input is worth more? Are you sure?

I haven't seen many millionaire web designers, perhaps you could name a few?

 

[UKSBD]

My comment was about relative values. The skill is with the web designer / SEO not the domain owner, so the share out of 50% seems overly generous to the domain owner.

Also, SEO to some extent is an ongoing activity.

No disrespect, but without knowing what the product/service/industry is it can't possibly be correct to say that.

If it's just a case of a domain owner wanting an SEO to do this I agree it sounds rubbish, but if the domain owner is a business with expertise in the field, the right product, the right contacts, good supply chain, etc. then it's a different story.

It sound basically like something in-between drop shipping and affiliate work.
People might not want the hassle involved with drop shipping, but want something better than just indirect affiliate work, a sort of white label in reverse.

 

[HorseLatitudes]

So in you're saying if you made a website for a lawyer for example, and they went on to bill millions in fees from leads from that site, that the "skill" is with you, and your input is worth more? Are you sure?

I haven't seen many millionaire web designers, perhaps you could name a few?

To be fair, without the SEO there'd have been no leads to make millions from, in that instance.

But that was a poor example to choose on your part. Wouldn't a lawyer get paid regardless of whether they win or lose? A top laywer capable of making millions via cases would surely be commanding highly paid work based on reputation alone. I doub't Johnnie Cochrane was bothered about ranking on page one for 'Lawyer in California'

You seem to hold some amount of disdain towards SEO's. Have you had your fingers burnt in the past?

Why not learn how to do it yourself? If you're adamant it can be done in days (once you know how it's done) and don't wan't to pay someone who may not achieve exact level of results you demand, surely it'd be a win win for you.

 

[NickGrogan]

But without the lawyer's experience, knowledge and contacts there are no millions! Plenty of people make adsense sites about law/lawyers - how many make millions?

Some lawyers are paid win/lose, some are paid only if they win, and many will work with a client on a results basis.

I have no issues with SEOs, perhaps you could highlight where I have shown disdain? I can see where I have asked people to achieve a mutually agreed goal for a mutually agreed fee.

Can you also highlight were I said it could be done in days?

"don't wan't to pay someone who may not achieve exact level of results you demand"

I gave the pianist example earlier, here's another one.

A friend of mine tunes cars (Suburu Impreza, specifically) for private and race use. If you took your car to him, agreed with him the modifications that would be made, and the performance boost that you'd expect and the price, what would you do if you came to collect your car, found he'd fitted some nice alloys but nothing else, and wanted full payment?

 

[sirearl]

My comment was about relative values. The skill is with the web designer / SEO not the domain owner, so the share out of 50% seems overly generous to the domain owner.

Also, SEO to some extent is an ongoing activity.

You do mean the business owner who has the day to day running of the business to contend with.

Like ordering stock packaging,payments,rent and dealing with the public.E.T.C.

 

[Esk247]

I can see where I have asked people to achieve a mutually agreed goal for a mutually agreed fee.

Can you also highlight were I said it could be done in days?

Well there we go.

It could take 6 weeks for the designer/SEO to get what you want..and in that 6 weeks you've paid them???

So how do they pay the mortgage this month? How do the kids get fed?

Do you walk in to Tesco and walk out with a TV, then say you'll pay them once you've watched 5 episodes of Top Gear?

What's to stop you saying in week 5 of the 6 week project that you've run out of money and you don't want to run that website any more? The SEO would be left with a missing portion of monthly earnings and no way to get them back.

As with any business. You pay an hourly fee (overall) dependent on experience/contacts/knowledge.

A solicitor is paid for their knowledge and experience and they are paid handsomely for it. Should they also work for free until they win a court case for you? to your requirements?

 

[NickGrogan]

A solicitor is paid for their knowledge and experience and they are paid handsomely for it. Should they also work for free until they win a court case for you? to your requirements?

You might want to look at this link. http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil-justice-reforms/main-changes

"If the case is lost, the lawyer is not paid. If the case is won, the lawyer is paid: the normal fee plus an uplift or success fee " - seems clear to me.

As with any business. You pay an hourly fee (overall) dependent on experience/contacts/knowledge.

No I don't. I pay a fee based on the value provided in most cases. If I eat in 5 star restaurant, I don't expect the chef to take longer to prepare my food because it's more expensive. If I buy clothing, I don't pay a different price because 1 piece is quicker to make than another. When I pay my window cleaner, I don't care how quick/slow he was, I care that the windows are clean, and so on.

Do you walk in to Tesco and walk out with a TV, then say you'll pay them once you've watched 5 episodes of Top Gear?

No, because Tesco sell TVs not a TV service, like Sky. If Sky didn't provide me with the channels that they'd agreed to, then I wouldn't pay them and I guess neither would you.

So how do they pay the mortgage this month? How do the kids get fed?

Really? "Won't someone think of the children?" If I want to buy a service from someone I have to worry about their home ownership situation and how many kids they have?

 

[UseYourWeb]

I can't really see anyone going for this tbh. If you want to buy a service then you should expect to pay for it shouldn't you. And not base it on Google results, for example, just before all seo work is complete and site is about to reach page 1 Google closes down, or changes it's algorithm or just about anything else that means I wont be getting my money.
If you pay for I.V fertilisation therapy, you dont pay based on whether you get pregnant or not, you still pay a doctors fee even if the illness doens't go away.
And really, all your offering is a domain name which costs pennies. Also, you want a site designing and then promoting which is two separate services. You pay for the site as regardless as you would still own it and the the seo is a separate thing.
Building a working relationship on top of the whim of Google isn't really a sound investment, and just say for instance, you die, or go out of business, or anything like that, is there any guarantee of actually getting any money.
Just sounds dodgy, I provide the name, you do all the work and if it's a success then you might get paid an undetermined sum of money depending presumably on how your mood was fixed that particular day.

 

[NickGrogan]

Dale

I provide the domain name (worth the price of registration, more or less), and the service that the website offers (worth significantly more). You provide the web design and SEO.

We agree a target (lets say 300 unique hits per month as measure by google analytics from a variety of sources - ie not bots, etc), you hit the target by agreed methods (transparent, relevant, not "black hat" - so no Miley Videos) and I pay you an agreed fee (or % of profits on an ongoing basis)

If you can deliver these AGREED elements in 1 days work, that's great, if it takes 1 month, that's great too, if it takes 6 months, that's great. Deliver an AGREED goal and get paid an AGREED fee.

Interesting quotes from your post:

"Building a working relationship on top of the whim of Google isn't really a sound investment"

This works exactly the same if I was paying you upfront or on delivery surely. So you're telling me SEO is not a sound investment.

That's good to know!

 

[UseYourWeb]

SEO is a sound investment. Basing a business solely on Google and it's analytics is not.
What if I got your site to the very top of Google for its keywords but the business was that rubbish that there arent 300 people alive on the planet interested in searching for your service on a per month basis. My job is done yet I'm not getting paid.

Basically when you take on online marketing as a service there's more to it than Google and getting 300 hits per month, what if you only got 5 hits but they all converted?

What is the nature of the site btw? depending on what it is, it might be worth my time investing in off shore clickers. 300 clicks a month for 40 quid, recon I'g get some interest on people per hour for that.

Also, would you expect to not pay for a tv advertisement if nobody bought your product as it wasnt very good (but the advertisement was).

 

[NickGrogan]

says a lot about your ethics - If you believe that there was no interest anywhere in the world for my service and keywords, rather than help/guide me, you'd happily charge me a fee for your service.

and your plan B is to pay people to visit my site, so you can say you've done the job and get paid. So we can add fraudulent as well.

And a nice strawman argument to finish off. In your example SEO would be the TV channel (not the advert or the conversion rate), if I paid for a prime time spot with 10,000,000 viewers and you put the advert on when there were only 10,000 viewers, then no you wouldn't get paid.

 

[UseYourWeb]

I didnt say I'd charge you regardless, I'd need to know what your business was about but as for ethics, I'd say it's on par with your "want a service but dont want to pay" style approach.

I'd see it going something along the lines of you saying "im not paying for that traffic, its not from a good enough source" or whatever else you decided your qualifying criteria was, again, probably depending on how you were feeling that day.

My "plan B" point was to highlight how bad your idea is basing what you pay on Google analytics data.

But what if it was shown at primetime but still nobody bought anything? still get paid?

I think you could sum up how good your idea is by the amount of positive "yes we'd love to be part of your shady scheme" posts you've recieved.

 

[sebdean]

So in you're saying if you made a website for a lawyer for example, and they went on to bill millions in fees from leads from that site, that the "skill" is with you, and your input is worth more? Are you sure?

I haven't seen many millionaire web designers, perhaps you could name a few?

Mark Zuckerberg, Jack Dorsey, Ricky Van Veen, Mike Krieger... The list goes on and on.

 

[NickGrogan]

The list of people who've made money on the internet goes on and on, the list of "millionaire web designers" is still empty.