Pay by results - SEO

[sebdean]

Mark Zuckerberg and the majority of those mentioned designed their websites and developed them by combining their web design skill with their entrepreneurial acumen.

 

[NickGrogan]

"I didnt say I'd charge you regardless"

You said: "What if I got your site to the very top of Google for its keywords but the business was that rubbish that there aren't 300 people alive on the planet interested in searching for your service on a per month basis. " - As you only work on an upfront fee basis, this seems pretty clear to me.

"your "want a service but dont want to pay" style" - Where exactly did I say this?

"depending on how you were feeling that day" - Do I really have to explain what the word agreed means?

"But what if it was shown at primetime but still nobody bought anything? still get paid?"

Yes, if the agreement is show an advert during primetime, when X people are watching and that happens then you pay. If no-one responds or millions respond makes no difference.

Some people who are confident in their service and can see the potential benefits have responded, others who perhaps are less confident in their abilities or don't see the benefits haven't.

 

[NickGrogan]

Mark Zuckerberg and the majority of those mentioned designed their websites and developed them by combining their web design skill with their entrepreneurial acumen.

Have you seen Facebook? It's a success because of its function, despite its design. The design, even now, is poor on many levels.

I suppose everyone uses Google because of its design as well? Nothing to do with it's functionality.

 

[sebdean]

Both designed very deliberately with function and simplicity in mind.

 

[NickGrogan]

Seb, you're welcome to your opinion on why Facebook and Google are successful.

I took a look at your website and I don't think we need to continue this discussion.

 

[sebdean]

Seb, you're welcome to your opinion on why Facebook and Google are successful.

I took a look at your website and I don't think we need to continue this discussion.

Was that a little dig?

 

[NickGrogan]

Which part?

 

[sebdean]

"I took a look at your website and I don't think we need to continue this discussion."

That.

 

[Ste Hughes]

I haven't seen many millionaire web designers, perhaps you could name a few?

I bet theres more millionaires with web design skills than there are with "energy brokering" skills..... (if thats how you monitor success)

 

[Annoying Donkey]

I bet theres more millionaires with web design skills than there are with "energy brokering" skills..... (if thats how you monitor success)

Wouldn't count on that - have you seen energy prices lately...?

I've done profit share deals before. They can be very lucrative. The OPs original offer wouldn't be of interest, but I'd consider Earl's 50/50 suggestion depending on the detail...

 

[NickGrogan]

I bet theres more millionaires with web design skills than there are with "energy brokering" skills..... (if thats how you monitor success)

The question was millionaire web designers, not millionaires with web design skills. I'm sure Bill Gates could knock out a website if he wanted to, but no-one would call him a billionaire web designer.

McKinnon and Clarke, an energy brokerage in Dunfermline, sold for £90 million in 2012.

 

[NickGrogan]

"I took a look at your website and I don't think we need to continue this discussion."

That.

I thought it was pretty clear. A badly setup Wordpress site does not make you a web designer.

 

[sebdean]

I thought it was pretty clear. A badly setup Wordpress site does not make you a web designer.

I know what you mean, it's not like that website is the source of around 70% of my freelance income or anything. When you understand anything about design or design for purpose you're welcome to your opinion.

In the meantime you've just demonstrated why no one would want to work for you.

If you want to go down the personal road after I merely voiced an opinion about an objective matter then we can of course carry out a bit of due diligence on your company and question why it was dissolved and reincorporated or why there is so little capital within the business. That, along with your freebie seeking, would point to somebody failing to take responsibility and wanting somebody to save their business for them... With no reward.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Anyway, I prefer not to spend my time around people with attitudes like yours. So, good luck with everything and have a fantastic day.

 

[NickGrogan]

Seb

I was in no way personal, you offer a web design service and from an objective web design point of view, even with my limited knowledge, I know your website is not very good. Take a look at the code.

Should I tell my existing partners that they shouldn't work with me any more? Could come as a bit of a surprise as I've worked with some of them for more than 10 years.

Where did I ask for freebies? So many strawmen...

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Using your logic, why would a web designer/seo work for anyone? They can just duplicate every business, right.

I'm not an SEO, so I don't have a dog in this race...

Why would an SEO work for anyone? Maybe because they're an SEO, rather than an entrepreneur?

There's an obvious synergy between (A) someone who is good at coming up with business ideas, turning those ideas into a business, and managing that business, and (B) someone who can bring in sales for that business.

Both of these are high paid skills. Why should someone who is good at one spend his time doing the other one badly?

What you seem to be offering is some domain names... and expect the SEO to do everything else: write the content, design the site, do the SEO... in return for a fee.

Compare that to every other offer SEOs receive - from flat fee work, to joint ventures with established businesses - and I think it's a pretty poor offer.

And, those SEOs pointing this out - and pointing out that they could buy their own domains, put on affiliate offers, and keep all the money - are simply pointing out the obvious.

My 2p,

Steve

 

[NickGrogan]

Iexpect the SEO to do everything else: write the content, design the site, do the SEO... in return for a fee.

I have indicated that I can provide all content, so that leaves design and SEO. Design could be outsourced, I don't want/need complex sites. So that leaves SEO...in return for a fee.

Is that not what an SEO does?

I provide the domain name (worth the price of registration, more or less), and the service that the website offers (worth significantly more). You provide the web design and SEO.

We agree a target (lets say 300 unique hits per month as measured by Google analytics from a variety of sources - ie not bots, etc), you hit the target by agreed methods (transparent, relevant, not "black hat" - so no Miley Videos) and I pay you an agreed fee - (£100's - £1000's or % of profits on an ongoing basis)

Provide an agreed service for an agreed fee, payable on results.

This is the same thing that I expect from almost all service providers.

I have even indicated that a will look at profit share options, meaning that the SEO doesn't even need to achieve an agreed target.

This is not adsense/affiliate scheme where you might earn pennies per click, this is a real business earning real fees.

Many of the responses I've seen here suggest that the SEO is just not that good.

 

[NickGrogan]

@KabirSingh
"No company will work for free even in the start, they are investing their time, money and resource."

should say

"Many companies will work for free in the start, they are investing their time, money and resource to build their businesses"

Another SEO who can't or won't read.

"would you just want that or conversions are also a part of your plan" - answered several times.
"you need skilled people which will help you get good links" - that's why I would hire a SEO that can do the job
"Do you know the amount you need to pay analytic to get the all the keywords" - £90,000 if you want to track more than 50,000 keywords or 10,000,000 hits per month, which I don't, otherwise I'd have bought it already.
"The website that you make has to be SEO friendly" - the one the SEO is making/advising on, you mean?
"You need regular content and the kind of content that people will share." - maybe I should find an SEO that could provide this?

Seems to me that there is a good market opportunity for an SEO that is paid on results, since very few want to offer this. I don't think that I'm the only person who would be interested.

 

[sirearl]

No company will work for free even in the start, they are investing their time, money and resource.
.

I would suggest that nearly all companies work for nothing on start up.

 

[simon field]

Sometimes I install flat roofs, and we give a 30 year guarantee.

Should I not be paid until the 30 years has elapsed?

After all, the roof hasn't done what I said it would do until then has it?

 

[NickGrogan]

@simon field

You're selling the roof, not the guarantee.

Your own terms and conditions state:

"the Supplier shall invoice the Customer for the price of the Goods and Services on or at any time after delivery of the Goods and/or the Provision of the Services"

So if I ordered a roof from you, I'd pay for it after it has been delivered. Which is exactly what I have been saying all along.

This clause is even more generous.

"if the Customer gives written notice to the Supplier within 3 Business Days after the Delivery Date (or Commencement Date, as appropriate) and the Supplier fails to deliver the Goods and/or Services within 3 Business Days after receiving such notice the Customer may cancel the order and the Supplier’s liability shall be limited to the excess (if any) of the cost of the Customer (in the cheapest available market) of similar goods or services to those not delivered or provided over the price of the Goods or Services not delivered or provided."

So if you don't deliver, I can buy elsewhere and you'll pay the difference! Even I didn't ask for that.

 

[simon field]

Well done for spotting that Nick - but congratulations aside, I disagree.

We're selling the roof and the guarantee you see. All in one bundle. Until that roof has lasted 30 of our earth years, it hasn't done its job properly.

But hey, that's just me.

 

[Scotty71]

If I eat in 5 star restaurant, I don't expect the chef to take longer to prepare my food because it's more expensive. If I buy clothing, I don't pay a different price because 1 piece is quicker to make than another.

Food served quickly is pre-packed and bought in in bulk, rather than lovingly prepared for the individual. The clothes made quickly are sold in Primark rather than Armani. Quality costs because it takes care and consideration and time. You get what you pay for, and if you're not prepared to invest in the project, then it doesn't really suggest any great interest or commitment.

I'm neither an SEO specialist nor web designer, but I would expect to pay for the work provided by either, and this would be highly unlikely to be from the same person. I may be shot down on this, but surely both are very specialist and the best providers would concentrate on one or the other, although have an understanding of the other discipline. We have spend a fortune on a new website, it's taken time, effort and it looks great. To then turn to the design agency and say we're not paying until it ranks would be unjust - they've provided what we specified and have done it well. To then expect the graphics guy or developer to be a whizz at SEO seems overly optimistic.

SEO is more nebulous because effort doesn't always equal results. If the product is totally unique in an uncompetitive market then that's a different field altogether than a highly competitive, overcrowded playing field, where even the tiniest niches have been exploited to the hilt. The strength of the product offering will also have a strong bearing on any link building campaign - the more unique the product, the easier it will be to get good authority back links. In some cases social media may be the more direct route to initial hits, are you expecting your web designer to be a specialist at that too?

Someone just starting out may well take up this opportunity, but you're likely to be more at the Primarni than Armani end of the design spectrum. Given your own lack of commitment to the project that's probably to be expected?

Also what happens if your designer secures you 3000 hits rather than 300 a month? Will you pay him 10 times the original agreed amount?

 

[Scotty71]

to find the best SEO services simply Google it and whichever would be on top you can for it.

You'd think so wouldn't you? Unfortunately just because they've got their own site to the top doesn't mean they'll do the same for yours. I've unfortunately been there on this one, and ended up with spammy links in India, articles written in Chinglish and a lack of strategy... Definitely an area of buyer beware.

 

[NickGrogan]

Well done for spotting that Nick - but congratulations aside, I disagree.

We're selling the roof and the guarantee you see. All in one bundle. Until that roof has lasted 30 of our earth years, it hasn't done its job properly.

But hey, that's just me.

Simon,

Good to see a company standing by it's product - do you do commercial projects as well?

I'm sure customers appreciate the guarantee, but I think they are mainly buying the roof.

 

[NickGrogan]

Food served quickly is pre-packed and bought in in bulk, rather than lovingly prepared for the individual. The clothes made quickly are sold in Primark rather than Armani.

Food sold in Michelin star restaurants is pre-packed and bought in in bulk, rather than lovingly prepared for the individual. - My son works in one. Armani suits come from factories not unlike the ones used by Primark - Speed is not the main cause for the difference in price.

"what happens if your designer secures you 3000 hits rather than 300 a month? Will you pay him 10 times the original agreed amount?"

The people who've responded positively want to work on a profit share basis. Generally more traffic equals more sales, so yes they would earn more, potentially a lot more.

I agree that this is not an opportunity for everyone - I never said it was, but if you take a look at the directory, web designers and SEOs are the most popular categories by far.

 

[Scotty71]

Food sold in Michelin star restaurants is pre-packed and bought in in bulk, rather than lovingly prepared for the individual. - My son works in one. Armani suits come from factories not unlike the ones used by Primark - Speed is not the main cause for the difference in price.
.

I've used a number of Chinese factories whilst working in electricals and quality depended on the design of the product, the integrity of the components and the care of the work - (and if manual, then speed does feature). You get what you pay for ....and with the best will in the world, you can't compare Armani to Primarni.

Someone may well take you up on this, but I suspect they won't be at the Armani end but rather someone who's desperate or bored. Is that good enough for your 'project'? You want it completed without financial commitment and aren't particularly discerning over the quality? Having approached all my tasks with passion, I just find it hard to get into that kind of mindset I'm afraid. Surely if something's worth doing, it's worth doing well? Getting 300 clicks a month is one thing, but if the website is crap, it really isn't going to convert....

 

[NickGrogan]

@Scotty71

I wasn't comparing Primark and Armani, just the time involved in manufacture. There may be a difference, but it's not the main cause for the price difference, which is my point.

So anyone who disagrees with you must be desperate or bored and not good enough, is that really how you view your competitors?

Where did I say I wanted it completed without financial commitment? I said the exact opposite several times.

Where did I say I'm not discerning over quality? Again I've said the opposite.

Did I mention conversion in my original request? or the followups? No, conversions are my problem.

I know many salesmen, some will only work with a salary, company car, company laptop, phone, expenses account, etc. Others work on a commission only basis. I know which ones sell more, earn more and are happier.

 

[greyheart]

to find the best SEO services simply Google it and whichever would be on top you can for it.

That made me laugh

 

[Scotty71]

@Scotty71
So anyone who disagrees with you must be desperate or bored and not good enough, is that really how you view your competitors?
.

I'm not competing here, my business isn't SEO, webdesign or anything related - I'm talking more as the purchaser of such services. I'm merely saying that in my experience any good web designer worth his salt is likely to be in the position where they don't have to complete a project where the risk is all theirs. If the order book is empty perhaps, but then that in itself is very telling....

In measuring the product by hits, you're not taking quality of design into consideration. SEO doesn't know whether a site is attractive or looks like a dogs dinner, it is based more on structure/ content and links. 300 hits a month are completely worthless if those viewers take one look and disappear right off again. Unless the design tempts the user in, and gets them interested enough to either convert or provide details so you can work on conversion, those hits may as well be chocolate buttons.

 

[sirearl]

As said in general an SEO company who is not prepared to enter a profit share with a business owner is probably not very confident of their abilities.

Apart from my own sites nearly all the sites I have worked on have been on a profit sharing basis going back nearly 17 years.

The advantages are huge for all parties as I still get monthly payments from sites set up many years ago and most of them just need a watching brief to make sure they have not slipped in the rankings.

The ability to estimate which business's are viable and which business owners are trustworthy is paramount in deciding which business's one goes with.IMHO

 

[Scotty71]

As said in general an SEO company who is not prepared to enter a profit share with a business owner is probably not very confident of their abilities.

SEO at a push but a web designer? Call me a cynic but an excellent SEO company are not likely to be the best at design,nor a designer the best at SEO - whilst both are complimentary and need an understanding of the other, the best tend to specialise.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

I'm with Earl...

Ever heard the story of Frank Howser...
Frank designed and built display stands for trade shows.
One day Frank was approached by two young hippie types who asked him to design a display stand for their little start-up company so they could show off their wares at a trade show. Instead of cash, they offered him shares in their start-up business. Frank turned them down.
I bet Frank later regretted missing that opportunity... The two young guys were Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs and their little startup was, of course, Apple Computers...

Sometimes you just got to go with the opportunities presented to you...

SEO at a push but a web designer? Call me a cynic but an excellent SEO company are not likely to be the best at design,nor a designer the best at SEO - whilst both are complimentary and need an understanding of the other, the best tend to specialise.

IMHO Web design contributes little to the sales process. Anyone who spends loads on web design before they have a proven market is being silly. There are plenty of plain and simple or just plain ugly sites that make money. It's the marketing message that is important, not the look and feel. Plain site, plain, simple navigation, plain simple message wins every time...

If any web designer disputes this, then they should be prepared to do a profit share arrangement just as described by Earl...

 

[Scotty71]

IMHO Web design contributes little to the sales process.

I guess you're not a web designer then? ;-)

As a consumer if a site looks crap, I don't stay. The website is the packaging or shop window, it speaks volumes, it provides reassurance, it showcases the product. Would you really buy something from a site that looks rubbbish? I suspect you're in the minority. Do you buy products in brown paper bags too?

I don't disagree that it would be risky to spend a fortune on a new site if the topic's unproven, but this doesn't mean design doesn't matter. We created our first site with a spend of £400 with a graphic designer, and a lot of hard work ourselves putting it together. Our latest and third site cost 5 figures but in a very competitive consumer industry, it's proving to be worth every last penny of that.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

As a consumer if a site looks crap, I don't stay. The website is the packaging or shop window, it speaks volumes, it provides reassurance, it showcases the product. Would you really buy something from a site that looks rubbbish? I suspect you're in the minority.

We advocate plain and simple, not crap...!

If you've got the right message, then appearance is not particularly important. Of course, everything in marketing should be tested. It is the marketplace that will ultimately decide.

Do you buy products in brown paper bags too?

I don't buy THOSE sort of products!

 

[greyheart]

As said in general an SEO company who is not prepared to enter a profit share with a business owner is probably not very confident of their abilities.

Well that really depends on viability of the profit share really. Also whether or not you trust the guy offering you there share (been burnt there in the past) and it's very hard to claim back on that.

Generally I have no problem with hybrid deals where the flat fee at least covers running costs plus a share of some sort or performance based element etc.

And finally there's also cash flow to consider, any extra resource required for example, we generally wouldn't do profit share when we're near capacity, because there are extra costs involved in tooling up and we'd be hoping for initial fees to help cover that etc etc.

 

[SEO Lady]

I suspect you do not understand how it works for the SEO.

An income for life is always going to win over a lump sum.

Did you write your own legal document for this?

I've been burned twice in my early years - as someone said "SEOs are too busy with paying clients or SEO'ing their own websites to have time to do work for nothing"

I had a signed agreement of 25% of every proven organic sale about 4 years back. All went well, they hit page 1 UK for a very competitive 2 word term. Traffic more than quadrupled. I would get my cheque after the end of the month when eCommerce was proven via Analytics.

6 months down the line, someone else took over without warning. I was owed just under £1,000. This person tried to wriggle out of the agreement with a tenious bs excuse. I took them to the Small Claims Court financed by myself and after 4 or 5 months I was awarded the amount. I was never paid. Short of sending in the bailiffs, there's not much I could do.

Not much I could do, but un-SEO all of the backlinks, articles, and content that I had manually written and had ownership of and a few other tasks. They were laguishing late in Google, say page 6 or 7 after a few weeks.

The second case, no real agreement (<<<This is an idiot) but excanges in email. Hit page 1 and was taking 50% of profit after cost, after a year the owner said he had changed his mind and the cheques would stop. Trouble is with this one, he asked questions over the months and I guess he learned SEO along the way and carried on without me.

Edit: Just checked sites 1 and 2.
1 - Offline
2 - Still live, location address has changed, looks like owner sold it on. Not in top 5 pages of Google for old search term

It ticks me off when I read business owners say
"Well, if you're so good, you can make money can't you?"

- Which in my experiences is a prime opportunity to suck you in then do a runner. If you're such an awesome businessman or woman, where's your funding and backing, where's your Marketing plan?

"You have a brilliant business idea yet have not planned how to launch online? That shows a lack of commitment to me, and could be an indicator of your lack of commitment in the future"

/rant

 

[Mystro]

@1weekSEO

Feel your pain but i suppose like any venture there has to be guidelines in place and you would have to trust each other , but more importantly there must be clear a set criteria for both party's to follow, as its easy for both party's to come unstuck in any set arrangement,

I agree with Earl too, as for me it is now so easy to use the wrong company who can cause more damage than good, Just browse this SEO section, people are still talking spinner tools, fiverr packages, all the things that are wrong but if you use an SEO who pays on profit share they have too much to lose by not doing it right

The only thing that needs sorting out in these scenarios are the the actual specifics and rules of such arrangments, personally If it were me i would make sure that i was on the board of directors for whatever %% you initially agreed which would give you some sort of assurance

 

[NickGrogan]

I agree, if it's a joint venture, you need some form of joint ownership - to protect both parties.

Sure, SEOs have been ripped off by clients, but it cuts both ways.

 

[Mystro]

I agree, if it's a joint venture, you need some form of joint ownership - to protect both parties.

Sure, SEOs have been ripped off by clients, but it cuts both ways.

That was my point, that's why if ever i worked with an SEO on a profit share i would have a few agreed safeguards in place,

However joint venture is totally different to pay on results, as almost anybody can rank a site, but its a different breed that can keep it there, plus results are not positions (although positions are great if you can maintain them) but results would have to be focused on ROI in some way, be it stable traffic from whatever source etc but surely you cannot be measured position in the serps

 

[HorseLatitudes]

The question was millionaire web designers, not millionaires with web design skills. I'm sure Bill Gates could knock out a website if he wanted to, but no-one would call him a billionaire web designer.

McKinnon and Clarke, an energy brokerage in Dunfermline, sold for £90 million in 2012.

I used to work for a web design company that a bloke started on his own and built up to the point where he's a millionaire a few times over.

I've driven his sports cars, I've swam in his mansions swimming pool, I've gotten lost in his upstairs.