Not 100% sure what marketing is, or how to do it?
- Thread starter AllUpHere
- Start date
No need for an accountant on this one. Brad Shorr explains it very well when he covers the ways in which marketing is assisting in identifying & qualifying prospects, assisting in arming sales reps with collateral they need, researching and reviewing customer needs/wants and developing loyalty programs to aid customer retention.If that was supposed to be a serious point, I think you might want to hop over to the accounting forum and ask a few questions.
Sales is the cutting edge of the sword. Marketing is the whetstone that sharpens it (and the bifocals on the person wielding that sword so they know where to cut). Without the sword, there's no need for a whetstone or a bulls-eye.
Eliminate the marketing and you've got less efficient sales teams, but do have top line revenue flowing down into the P&L. Eliminate the sales team and you've got a big fat goose egg on the top line sales revenue, which makes the company a dodo bird - extinct.
While I agree that keeping commercially aware, with the customer in mind in whatever you do, is frequently a great thought, I'd prefer to not be thinking of marketing when I'm handling something fragile, fiery hot, late or operations in nature.
I'd also prefer the time sitting down with prospects as a face to face sales call, to be just that - helping them to solve their problem... connecting the dots and shaking hands to confirm the sale.
Give me a company with 100% of staff selling their products/services (and not marketing anything) and I'll buy ALL the companies with 100% of staff marketing (and not selling anything).
Surely I've said it enough different ways.
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Nope. The world has moved on, we often buy things without talking to anyone now.
On occasion?
You seem to live in a different world to me. Most of the things I buy from stores, I'm mostly doing it all myself - Tesco, M&S, B&S, WH Smith etc. It's a marketing not a sales environment - price, branding, layout, promotion etc etc.
I rarely meet a sales person, but when I do it's alway a depressing experience. I bought a house and a car in last few months, both traditional 'sales', opportunities, both utterly hopeless - it seems to me that the best you can hope from traditional sales people is that they don't frighten people off with their antique and transparently manipulative methods.
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Yes, worlds apart undoubtedly.
I, personally, like buying from people I like, which is why I go into the Waitrose store instead of buying online with home delivery.
I like speaking to Tyre Centre manager about whether a run-flat is really what I need, how many bars of pressure he recommends vs what's on the sidewall, whether Goodyear are really worth the premium pricing knowing it's only going to see rainy roads about 300 days of the year - instead of ordering online from mytyre or is it mrtyre, and having them brought directly to my house.
I enjoy finding out about some of the new products available from the shopkeepers, despite knowing our canaries will probably turn their nose up at whatever odd bit we bring home from there, knowing I could order those items from any of a hundred websites without having to deal with a real live human being.
Apparently I've had B2B on the brain too much lately and wrongly assume that everyone has encountered much of the same. Or perhaps it's just like the 4 blind men describing various parts of an elephant, none of which sounded remotely similar to the others.
The laser eye surgery vs lens replacement and types of lasers at that - all require some consult, with variations in pricing, making those consultants salespeople in lab coats.
The auto repair shop that installs Bosch wipers instead of Shanghai Sams, got that extra fiver out of my pocket by convincing me that the Bosch would last longer, save me money, and carry less risk of flipping off and leaving the wiper arm scratching my windshield. I didn't buy those wiper blades, disk brake pads, oil change or MOT from a website without human intervention.
After my 'cheap eBay jeans' left dye on the sofa, I've returning to buying from shops where sales assistants, who aren't as colour blind as I am, are more than happy to assist me in product selection based on colour match, style, fit and other fashion senses which I was somehow born without.
Yes, occasionally I buy something without speaking to a human. Occasionally, I'm almost sold something without my using a keyboard, mouse and interweb.
Thankfully the guy that cleans our windows accepts cash and doesn't silently give me a card with instructions on how to pay him online while refusing coins or paper currency.
In a previous life, I was a director at a wee $1Bil software company. You know how many new clients we acquired without them ever speaking to a sales person? None.
Someone won't engage any of the big 4 accounting/auditing firms without speaking to a human first. After they qualify a potential new client, they speak with someone of varying titles, but whose function is to turn prospects into clients.
If I need a 20 quid widget, ebay or amazon make sense sure, if I don't mind risking buying a knock-off, 2nd, reject or other sight unseen purchase risk.
When I needed white board markers with fine tips in the colour blue red black and green, it took a sales assistant to help look through the 5,000 options available, identifying the reputable vs mediocre brand products, which were refillable, and going over a few other factors I hand't considered. Even in W.H. Smith, a salesperson can help you find what you want/need and then sometimes also find some cool organisational products that you didn't even know you needed, but just had to buy!
I, personally, like buying from people I like, which is why I go into the Waitrose store instead of buying online with home delivery.
I like speaking to Tyre Centre manager about whether a run-flat is really what I need, how many bars of pressure he recommends vs what's on the sidewall, whether Goodyear are really worth the premium pricing knowing it's only going to see rainy roads about 300 days of the year - instead of ordering online from mytyre or is it mrtyre, and having them brought directly to my house.
I enjoy finding out about some of the new products available from the shopkeepers, despite knowing our canaries will probably turn their nose up at whatever odd bit we bring home from there, knowing I could order those items from any of a hundred websites without having to deal with a real live human being.
Apparently I've had B2B on the brain too much lately and wrongly assume that everyone has encountered much of the same. Or perhaps it's just like the 4 blind men describing various parts of an elephant, none of which sounded remotely similar to the others.
The laser eye surgery vs lens replacement and types of lasers at that - all require some consult, with variations in pricing, making those consultants salespeople in lab coats.
The auto repair shop that installs Bosch wipers instead of Shanghai Sams, got that extra fiver out of my pocket by convincing me that the Bosch would last longer, save me money, and carry less risk of flipping off and leaving the wiper arm scratching my windshield. I didn't buy those wiper blades, disk brake pads, oil change or MOT from a website without human intervention.
After my 'cheap eBay jeans' left dye on the sofa, I've returning to buying from shops where sales assistants, who aren't as colour blind as I am, are more than happy to assist me in product selection based on colour match, style, fit and other fashion senses which I was somehow born without.
Yes, occasionally I buy something without speaking to a human. Occasionally, I'm almost sold something without my using a keyboard, mouse and interweb.
Thankfully the guy that cleans our windows accepts cash and doesn't silently give me a card with instructions on how to pay him online while refusing coins or paper currency.
In a previous life, I was a director at a wee $1Bil software company. You know how many new clients we acquired without them ever speaking to a sales person? None.
Someone won't engage any of the big 4 accounting/auditing firms without speaking to a human first. After they qualify a potential new client, they speak with someone of varying titles, but whose function is to turn prospects into clients.
If I need a 20 quid widget, ebay or amazon make sense sure, if I don't mind risking buying a knock-off, 2nd, reject or other sight unseen purchase risk.
When I needed white board markers with fine tips in the colour blue red black and green, it took a sales assistant to help look through the 5,000 options available, identifying the reputable vs mediocre brand products, which were refillable, and going over a few other factors I hand't considered. Even in W.H. Smith, a salesperson can help you find what you want/need and then sometimes also find some cool organisational products that you didn't even know you needed, but just had to buy!
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I think you're confusing a lot of stuff here. You don't shop at Waitrose because the people there are great sales people, you shop there because they have a good brand, good products and an image that you identify with. Nobody 'sells' in Waitrose.
Talking to people in shops is not necessarily talking to a sales person - sometimes it is, but when you do, it's always the case that the sales guy is just a part of the marketing mix.
When you bought Bosch, you bought a brand and the guy that advised you was going to sell you a wiper either way - he wasn't selling, you were buying and he was sharing his knowledge. If it turns out well, you'll go back and buy from him again. That's good marketing.
Traditional selling is still a big part of some types of company business models, but it's not necessary for all - or maybe even most - and when it is, it's part of an overall marketing effort without which there'd be nothing to sell.
Talking to people in shops is not necessarily talking to a sales person - sometimes it is, but when you do, it's always the case that the sales guy is just a part of the marketing mix.
When you bought Bosch, you bought a brand and the guy that advised you was going to sell you a wiper either way - he wasn't selling, you were buying and he was sharing his knowledge. If it turns out well, you'll go back and buy from him again. That's good marketing.
Traditional selling is still a big part of some types of company business models, but it's not necessary for all - or maybe even most - and when it is, it's part of an overall marketing effort without which there'd be nothing to sell.
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The quoted 'You' must be referring to someone else, since the reference is so far off the mark. I didn't grow up in Britain and didn't know Waitrose from a hole in the ground. There's no Waitrose in Fort William, and not even one within a reasonable drive of there. Our town just got a Waitrose recently, and prior to that I don't recall ever stepping foot in one, much less having seen an advert or formed an opinion about their brand. Remember, Scotland only has about 6 Waitrose, and many of them are brand spanking new.
The butcher, who conveniently was our neighbourhood butcher a couple of years ago and quite a few miles away, is now one of the staff butchers at our Waitrose. A conversation with him and I walked away with 2 pounds of Aberdeen Angus steak mince and a few other odds and ends when all I needed with 1/2 pound of generic (dairy cow) mince for a couple of burgers. He sold me then, just like he used to with those Stornoway black puddings I'd buy from him.
I mentioned to one of the shelf stockers that I was surprised they were completely sold out of a product normally purchased there, and then continued shopped throughout the store. A suited manager approached me at the far end with 2x of what I needed in hand, that had apparently been moved to and end-cap for a promotion. As we discussed product availability, I ended up having him lead me to two other sections, whereby I found, and spent, more than I ever planned on getting that day.
At the fuel station on the other end of their parking lot, the attendant and I conversed, and he suggested I try the Wasabi Peas. A couple of visits later and I remembered, bought and enjoyed those fiery suckers. He asked me a week later if I had tried them, we compared notes and had a laugh. Suggestive selling is an important aspect of the job, whether officially trained as such, or just instinctive.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but that stuff happening in Waitrose is called:
S A L E S
General Motors + Ford Motors do about $300Bil a year, combined. How many new cars do you reckon they sell without a sales person being involved?
"the guy that advised you was going to sell you a wiper either way - he wasn't selling"
I could have not known I needed a wiper blade, or chosen a cheaper alternative. I could have selected one of several pricier choices.
Why do they call these people "sales advisors" and not "marketing reps" because, I'll give you a hint, "They're selling stuff".
The original premise, that everyone is always marketing the company, or should be, is proving to be a quantum leap in logic.
When there's an urgent cash shortfall, what do you do? "Sell Something" not "Market Something"
The P&L is driven by what? "Top Line Sales" not "Top Line Marketing"
You can pee on my leg and tell me it's raining, but you're gonna need some sales firepower to CONvince me that if a company only had 2 choices, keep sales or keep marketing, and lose the other, that they should even blink before choosing sales. Commercial awareness is a great concept for many staff members, but not the holy grail.
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?
Revenue is a function of sales x price. Price is set by marketing people. P&L is driven by the difference between revenue and cost. If marketing get the price wrong, the boneheaded sales team drive loss not profit.
But this is all silly, some types of company need sales people - in all their forms - but increasingly they don't. But even those companies that do need sales people rely on marketing to give them a recognisable brand to sell, at a price that the matches the company's business model from places they know. Sales is just one function of marketing - it's not a stand-alone service. Ask Apple.
The premise that everything a company does that touches a consumer is marketing is obviously true - as you've demonstrated yourself with your stories above.
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- Original Poster
- #49
That's an interesting way of looking at it, and does manage to include a lot of the stuff that people normally fail to understand as marketing.
There is a bit of a problem with your definition though, it fails to include all the marketing that happens after you print the price list.
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- Original Poster
- #50
@webgeek I can't work out if you are joking, playing devils advocate to give a counter argument, or really don't understand the points that are being made.
As someone who has read many of your internet marketing related posts on this forum I respect your opinion, but as far as I can tell none of your posts in this thread have any merit as a counter argument against the point of the thread. In fact, the whole point of the thread was to encourage members to stop thinking about marketing in the ways you have mentioned, and help them to understand the benefits of thinking of marketing as a foundation for all business decisions.
The very fact that you couldn't have any sales without marketing surely tells you something?Without marketing you wouldn't even have a product or service to sell, let alone a sales team to sell it.
As someone who has read many of your internet marketing related posts on this forum I respect your opinion, but as far as I can tell none of your posts in this thread have any merit as a counter argument against the point of the thread. In fact, the whole point of the thread was to encourage members to stop thinking about marketing in the ways you have mentioned, and help them to understand the benefits of thinking of marketing as a foundation for all business decisions.
The very fact that you couldn't have any sales without marketing surely tells you something?Without marketing you wouldn't even have a product or service to sell, let alone a sales team to sell it.
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D
Deleted member 59730
That's an interesting way of looking at it, and does manage to include a lot of the stuff that people normally fail to understand as marketing.
There is a bit of a problem with your definition though, it fails to include all the marketing that happens after you print the price list.
Like what?
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... the brochure, the press release, the media ad campaign, the industry promotion and discounts, the lunches with 'influencers' and the back-handers to trade press. Interviews with directors, trade shows and corporate sponship, bus, taxi and billboard posters, updated websites, social media campaign, spam, special offers, brand building, trademarks, packaging, distribution etc etc...
Not much really, after all that the sales guy has a chance
Not much really, after all that the sales guy has a chance
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S
Scott@KarmaContent
... the brochure, the press release, the media ad campaign, the industry promotion and discounts, the lunches with 'influencers' and the back-handers to trade press. Interviews with directors, trade shows and corporate sponship, bus, taxi and billboard posters, updated websites, social media campaign, spam, special offers, brand building, trademarks, packaging, distribution etc etc...
Not much really, after all that the sales guy has a chance
That's assuming any of that got done. The marketers were probably too busy discussing 'what is marketing...'
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Deleted member 59730
Of course. I am not arguing, I'm stating it as a fact.
Advertising tells the customer about the product.
A customer facing salesperson does the same.
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Then the sale's guy is doing marketing. (But the sales guy is part of the company's marketing anyway...)
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- Original Poster
- #62
We are once again in danger of arguing over semantics which is going to dilute the point of the thread.
The point of the thread was that you can improve your marketing by thinking of every single thing you do in your business as marketing. Or (if it helps) don't think of everything as marketing, but instead think of everything from a marketing perspective. Maybe that's an easier way to look at it.
Whether or not everyone agrees that everything is marketing is irrelevant. As long as we can agree that there is a benefit to thinking of everything as marketing, we are very much on the right track.
The point of the thread was that you can improve your marketing by thinking of every single thing you do in your business as marketing. Or (if it helps) don't think of everything as marketing, but instead think of everything from a marketing perspective. Maybe that's an easier way to look at it.
Whether or not everyone agrees that everything is marketing is irrelevant. As long as we can agree that there is a benefit to thinking of everything as marketing, we are very much on the right track.
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It's a mantra of distraction, of multitasking when it may not be appropriate and of confusing roles in the organisation.
I want the guy doing surgery to remove a gearshift knob from my cranium to only be thinking about my cranium and that gearshift knob, not whether he's got a logo on his smock or if he's reserved a good room at the conference next month.
I certainly don't want the graphic designer who read 2 posts on Moz to be editing the meta tags on some client site while their uploading a new image for that particular page. I'd much prefer that be left for the person who has the role responsibilities for it.
I would hope everyone agrees that a company full of people ill-trained and unfamiliar with all the minute details of SEO (just as one facet of marketing to serve as an example) would best serve the company focusing on doing what they do, only doing more of it, or doing it better rather than taking a crack at tweaking the meta tags, or content, or building some backlinks they found for sale on fiverr.
It's hard enough to keep up with the ever-changing rules of the game, when your mission is solely that.
I really wouldn't want the accountant making changes to the structured data markup of a website any more than he would want me calculating the payroll & taxes for international staff or entering the entertainment expenses of the sales team.
Some accountants are great at SEO, but others have never concerned themselves with it. Some MD's are great with international payroll, tax and allowed expenses, while others prefer that the accountants deal with such matters.
I can't believe that 'every single thing' in your business is not marketing and dealing with 'every single thing' is not the best time to be thinking about marketing.
I'd rather have the best accountants handling my accounts, the best sales team handling my sales and the best chefs handling my food. People should do what they are passionate about and do well and let others get on with what they were hired to do.
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- Original Poster
- #68
In an organisation large enough to have a dedicated marketing person or team, that persons role would more than likely be one of promotional marketing, so you may as well leave them behind the door. This thread is very much intended to help the small and micro businesses on this forum, of which the owner probably does the vast majority of the marketing.
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I think you're missing quite a large promotion opportunity - UKBF can generate business for you and you can still speak your mind. In fact it helps if you do - small business people prefer to do business with real people, not corporate clones.
I once had an email complaint from a UKBF poster who didn't like what I said on here. They sent it to our support address presumably expecting to get me sacked/disciplined. I gave myself a serious talking too I can tell you.
(And, don't forget, everything you do is marketing - so keep it real
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And in a single post, you've just proved that you don't believe "Marketing is everything you do"
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