Non paying customer - advice
- Thread starter Minnie123
- Start date
Try not to worry about it. Separate it out as just a pitfall of being in business.
Once they get claim papers on their desk you'll get an indication of their intent, ie whether or not they're going to defend it. Then you can deal with that as it arises.
It can be a slow process, just focus on the rest of your business and your life.
Once they get claim papers on their desk you'll get an indication of their intent, ie whether or not they're going to defend it. Then you can deal with that as it arises.
It can be a slow process, just focus on the rest of your business and your life.
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Hi Minnie123
Sorry to hear this. It's gonna be a bumpy ride I suspect. There's a few things from your post that I would pick up on.
1) Firstly you say that there were a list of complaints and you responded to each one with solutions. Are you happy that none of these grievances should result in non-payment? Do you feel that your offer of paying for materials only is fair considering the complaints? Are they likely to make a counter claim that outweighs the cost of materials? I just feel you need to be ready to answer these questions as things progress.
2) It seems to me that you should probably take advice on your Retention Of Title clause as I think that it needed to be very strong and clearly worded and make provisions for how the title of goods would be recovered later on specifically with regard to access to the property. I'm not sure about windows specifically but usually you can't leave a consumer is a worse position than before the contract so this is likely to mean you would have to put old windows back in. This leads to another consideration of whether it's really worth it to recover the goods. Apart from the feel good factor and possibly preserving your reputation, it might be more financially prudent to move on and make your money up on future jobs and chalk this one up to experience.
3) In any event, think about what you want to do in future if this situation arises with other customers. If you do want to effectively recover goods then I think you should get a properly drafted set of T&C's that specifically cover ROT.
4) Same goes for deposits, staged payments etc. I know you are probably kicking yourself for not taking staged payments but there are people out there who will take advantage of this over and over again
Have a very strict rule in place about credit limits and not doing work or parting with goods until staged payments are received.
5) Depending on which way you want to go now, I would suggest ...
a) Take proper legal advice on recovering goods - you can then refer to this in your correspondence prior to a MCOL. Either with Thomas Higgins or someone else. A personally worded letter that makes reference to your specific contract, sent from your solicitor outlining the sequence of events leading to their complaints, the solutions you have outlined and the legal steps you intend to take. If you are able to proceed with recovery of goods then these next steps can be outlined in the letter. This is likely to make your debtor sit up and take notice! Even if you are not going to pursue recovery of the goods on this occasion, I still believe a decent and specific legal letter is likely to illicit more response at this stage.
b) If you aren't going to pursue recovery of the goods and believe you are ready to simply issue a claim via MCOL then do this immediately when the 7 days is up. I believe in gut feelings and if you suspected that this customer was a non-payer from the start then you are probably right so be ready for their defence and any counter claim. It could get expensive over and above the cost of the initial debt claim. Issue it for the whole debt amount (not just the amount you were prepared to settle without prejudice) and include 'reasonable debt recovery fees' and interest.
c) If you are not sure about the MCOL just yet, another option would be to pick up a paper set of forms and fill them in, photocopy them, and send them with a covering letter as a '2nd Letter Before Action' that shows that you "really really mean it!". Sometimes this can have the effect of showing real intention to pursue your debt claim. (hopeful but you never know).
Good luck
Sorry to hear this. It's gonna be a bumpy ride I suspect. There's a few things from your post that I would pick up on.
1) Firstly you say that there were a list of complaints and you responded to each one with solutions. Are you happy that none of these grievances should result in non-payment? Do you feel that your offer of paying for materials only is fair considering the complaints? Are they likely to make a counter claim that outweighs the cost of materials? I just feel you need to be ready to answer these questions as things progress.
2) It seems to me that you should probably take advice on your Retention Of Title clause as I think that it needed to be very strong and clearly worded and make provisions for how the title of goods would be recovered later on specifically with regard to access to the property. I'm not sure about windows specifically but usually you can't leave a consumer is a worse position than before the contract so this is likely to mean you would have to put old windows back in. This leads to another consideration of whether it's really worth it to recover the goods. Apart from the feel good factor and possibly preserving your reputation, it might be more financially prudent to move on and make your money up on future jobs and chalk this one up to experience.
3) In any event, think about what you want to do in future if this situation arises with other customers. If you do want to effectively recover goods then I think you should get a properly drafted set of T&C's that specifically cover ROT.
4) Same goes for deposits, staged payments etc. I know you are probably kicking yourself for not taking staged payments but there are people out there who will take advantage of this over and over again
Have a very strict rule in place about credit limits and not doing work or parting with goods until staged payments are received. 5) Depending on which way you want to go now, I would suggest ...
a) Take proper legal advice on recovering goods - you can then refer to this in your correspondence prior to a MCOL. Either with Thomas Higgins or someone else. A personally worded letter that makes reference to your specific contract, sent from your solicitor outlining the sequence of events leading to their complaints, the solutions you have outlined and the legal steps you intend to take. If you are able to proceed with recovery of goods then these next steps can be outlined in the letter. This is likely to make your debtor sit up and take notice! Even if you are not going to pursue recovery of the goods on this occasion, I still believe a decent and specific legal letter is likely to illicit more response at this stage.
b) If you aren't going to pursue recovery of the goods and believe you are ready to simply issue a claim via MCOL then do this immediately when the 7 days is up. I believe in gut feelings and if you suspected that this customer was a non-payer from the start then you are probably right so be ready for their defence and any counter claim. It could get expensive over and above the cost of the initial debt claim. Issue it for the whole debt amount (not just the amount you were prepared to settle without prejudice) and include 'reasonable debt recovery fees' and interest.
c) If you are not sure about the MCOL just yet, another option would be to pick up a paper set of forms and fill them in, photocopy them, and send them with a covering letter as a '2nd Letter Before Action' that shows that you "really really mean it!". Sometimes this can have the effect of showing real intention to pursue your debt claim. (hopeful but you never know).
Good luck
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- Original Poster
- #46
Yes I now take 10% deposit when they sign the contract 40% on the day I start and the remaining 50% on completion and I get the customer to sign a payment schedule to this effect. All of the customers complaints were solveable, minor or just vague such as - "the window board is a disgrace", "we now need to redecorate round the windows", "The window is not sealed" etc..
The customer would be getting an absolute steal at paying simply the cost price, I offered to take my windows back on a day they can arrange another firm to redo the job so they wouldn't be without windows which I think is more than fair, and they wanted new windows so why have they not took this offer up. It's because they want to keep my windows but not pay.
The customer would be getting an absolute steal at paying simply the cost price, I offered to take my windows back on a day they can arrange another firm to redo the job so they wouldn't be without windows which I think is more than fair, and they wanted new windows so why have they not took this offer up. It's because they want to keep my windows but not pay.
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Sorry but it seems to me that if everything you've said is true, you've been more than reasonable and any sane judge will see that if it goes to small claims.
They can't just screw you out of new windows especially if you've offered to sort it and been declined.
Game on as far as I'm concerned - don't be bullied by these people.
They can't just screw you out of new windows especially if you've offered to sort it and been declined.
Game on as far as I'm concerned - don't be bullied by these people.
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Friend of mine (programmer) initiated action to recover money owed from a client. He then panicked when they announced they were going to counter-sue (they didn't actually do it, just said they would).
When he called his lawyer she laughed out loud and said it was just them bluffing to try and get him to go away. Reassured he pressed on and they paid.
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Would strongly suggest that you let them know you cannot afford to write this money off and will be taking court action. If they get a debt recorded against them, that means their ability to get loans, mortgages is nowadays nil. Is it worth getting an independent person to assess the work for faults and write a report on quality of work etc to support you in court?
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- Original Poster
- #58
Yes it's going to the small claims court just thinking as they have a solicitor should I get one. It's also worrying they live in the house with the windows they could do stuff to them to get out of paying and then rectify it after? I think there counterclaim is going to be for redecoration around the windows, I have learnt so much from this pictures of every finished window from now on and stage payments.
(from contract -
b) The company and its servants will do their utmost to keep any damage to a minimum but it cannot guarantee to avoid damage to wallpaper or paintwork surrounding the installation and any redecoration as a result of such damage shall be the responsibility of the customer.)
(from contract -
b) The company and its servants will do their utmost to keep any damage to a minimum but it cannot guarantee to avoid damage to wallpaper or paintwork surrounding the installation and any redecoration as a result of such damage shall be the responsibility of the customer.)
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I know it is a very worrying time, but please stop worrying.
You need to try to focus on your business and deal with this *** customer as and wehn you need to. Forget about them until then.
The next time you need to think about them is when you receive the defence documents from the court. We'll go through it then.
You need to try to focus on your business and deal with this *** customer as and wehn you need to. Forget about them until then.
The next time you need to think about them is when you receive the defence documents from the court. We'll go through it then.
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Would suggest engaging a solicitor here for this as you are worried and this is your first time. I used one recently £250 per hour is the going rate. I have a friend who keeps writing money off in his building business not taking people to court and now tells me he bitterly regrets it.
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I definitely would not get a solicitor yet. The solicitor's letter was probably a ploy. When you ignore it and continue with the case, they may give up. Also, just because they have engaged a solicitor to write a letter it does not mean they will be acting for them in the case itself. Wait and see, you have plenty of time.
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- Original Poster
- #64
Well I have received a document from the defendants solicitor for defence and counterclaim - they are actually counter claiming for full replacement of the Windows for £5,200. so it says if they win I will owe then £1,600 (£5,200 less my invoice of £3,600) - I just believe how that even makes sense - if they don't pay me and they win the case they can just go get their windows done by another company if they wish to? So now I'm screwed if they win because I gave them an excellent price. Looks like I need to get a solicitor - panicking now.
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- Original Poster
- #65
What is the likelihood they would be entitled to us paying them to pay the extra to use another company to redo the work? It seems crazy to me and I feel I have been so fair offering them to pay for materials only. The counterclaim also says I never offered a date the the defendant to remove the goods - but that is because I wouldn't want to leave someone with no windows and get in trouble with the police - I said if they arranged to have their windows done by another company I would remove them that day. I feel like I have been too fair.
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Money claim online. Used it several times and always got my money. Follow the steps on line at the earliest opportunity that the mcol will allow you. Once the CCJ has been applied, call DCBL with a copy of the ccj and they will transfer it up to high court and then the customer will get 7 days to pay before bailiffs turn up. Have used DCBL and i got my money back. Google DCBL, London office was exceptionally helpful
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- Original Poster
- #67
I have already put a claim in through MCOL - just wondering whether I should now get legal advice due to his counterclaim. Also I have done nothing on MCOL since I first applied I guess I need to do something now as I haven't sent any more info other than the initial small paragraph I filled in online.
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OK, so you haven't yet got the court papers that have been filed.
I suggest you contact someone like @smallclaimsassistance who should be able to give you some direct advice.
I suggest you contact someone like @smallclaimsassistance who should be able to give you some direct advice.
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Ignore the part about Alternate Dispute Resolution at this stage.
Once you get the papers you will receive a case management order which will tell you what needs to be ne next, which will be agreeing whether there should be an expert witness, dates by which all witness statements must be exchanged etc.
Your witness statement will include all the details about what you tried to do to deal with the customer's concerns, why it was a perfectly good job etc.
Once you get the papers you will receive a case management order which will tell you what needs to be ne next, which will be agreeing whether there should be an expert witness, dates by which all witness statements must be exchanged etc.
Your witness statement will include all the details about what you tried to do to deal with the customer's concerns, why it was a perfectly good job etc.
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Firstly do not panic here, they are trying to call your bluff and hope you walk away for a quiet life. This is a standard ploy here, yet if you have never dealt with it before it is worrying. It is like a game of Poker, just stand your ground. Please go and see a local solicitor who deals with business disputes, you will get a free consultation and they will assess your case. Agree a limit on fees with them, otherwise this could get out of hand. They charge £250 per hour, so make sure you are organised and have everything ready for them. You will probably find the other side does this to other tradesman and his friendly solicitor fires out these letters on a regular basis.
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110% a solicitor, you need someone local and understanding on your side here not some call centre. Just make it very clear to the solicitor you have a limited budget and need it not to exceed say £1000, they will then have to keep to that or not get involved. The other side have set out to frighten/panic you which they have successfully done, now you need to respond. I have been here it is all a game just make sure you win and keep control of solicitor's costs.
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