Non paying customer - advice

Minnie123

Free Member
Sep 27, 2016
39
1
Hi,

I am new here I have a window fitting business which has been successfully going for nearly 3 years and have just encountered my first non paying customer.

I have a signed contract from the customer but stupidly didn't take a deposit or stage payments he owes me £3,600.

I had a feeling from the start this customer did not want to pay as they kept picking up on problems that didn't exist. I tried my best to accommodate them and even refitted some windows they were not happy with. When the job was completed I invoiced them and they text me to say they weren't happy with the work and would not be paying. I tried communicating via text to resolve issues and got nowhere. I then sent a letter to which they responded. I then responded to this letter addressing all the issues they had described one by one with solutions. They put in this letter they did not want me back on site so I offered them to pay me for the materials only at £2,500 or arrange a convenient date for me to remove and take back my windows. I gave them 14 days to respond and it has been over 3 weeks and i have not heard back from them.

I have now sent a letter of action using Thomas Higgins for £2. My query is if I hear nothing within 7 days do I just start a claim through the small claims court myself or is it advisable to continue with Thomas Higgins services?

This debt has virtually nailed my business into the ground and want to do the best I can to get it back.

I really appreciate anyone's advice in this matter
 
P

profitxchange

HI I appreciate you are having a problem with a difficult client and you may cripple your business worrying about this customer. Try and keep the business going and keep a balanced perspective on the debt. It Happens - unfortunately. If it is any help I wrote these notes a while back which might help.

1 Ensure you have some form of trading terms and conditions. Try and avoid pages full of minutiae in miniscule print. Consider a form of “heads of agreement” or “principles of trading” that make it clear how you want to trade with customers and suppliers, highlighting what you consider critical, important and desirable. It should also include what action you may take if the “spirit and intent” is not honoured. E.g:- Goods remain in your ownership until paid for in full; Future supplies suspended immediately; British law will apply to any disputes; Dealing with Force Majeure:


2 Having straightforward business systems that are managed firmly will save time and resources by avoiding crises, in comparison with a laissez-faire approach, which will always be exploited by customers and particularly their accounts department whose agenda is not to pay.


3 There is no reason why you should not apply particular payment terms to different trading relationships. They can range from payment in advance, phased payments, cash with order, cash on delivery, or 7, 14, 30 or whatever terms you are willing to accept. Do not be deterred by the size of the company, everything is negotiable and there are many examples of accepting “non-standard” payment terms. It's just a question of your ability to negotiate


4 It’s often useful to ask the customer what payment terms they give their customers. The nature of their response and the actual terms can be very revealing. This will give you a steer on how you should proceed. If you agree to their terms, it gives you the right to be very heavy handed if they do not comply to the day.


5 Where extended payment terms may become a key element of the deal, always try and negotiate a back-to-back agreement with your key suppliers to share the exposure. Suppliers can be very sympathetic if the situation is explained and it is seen to be a one-off or relatively short-term. Where you cannot get a back-to-back agreement, undertake a rigorous risk assessment before accepting the full exposure. Ensure, you have factored into your pricing the cost and risk of funding any extended payment terms.


6 All payment terms are negotiable, whilst 30 days has become the norm, there is absolutely no reason why you need to follow tradition. There are also numerous interpretations of what 30 day payment terms can mean. It is therefore essential you state clearly what you're payment terms are, do not allow your customers or suppliers to apply their own interpretation.


7 Set credit limits for both customers and suppliers. This provides a vital checkpoint that ensures there is an acceptable business reason for them to have been reached and that they should or should not be exceeded in a particular situation. Frequent pressure on credit limits requires scrutiny to validate whether there is a potential crisis or that the trading relationship requires them being changed. Equally, credit limits should be reviewed periodically in the light of trading activity and adjusted up or down.


8 When closing the deal, sale or purchase, make the payment terms an overt element of the deal. Get the commitment from the individual that they will honour the payment terms you require. This also provides you with a secondary, and personal, channel into the customer or supplier should you need to apply pressure.


9 Overtly state the agreed payment terms on any quotation and/or order acknowledgement and include a copy of your terms and conditions of trading. In the absence of any contractual conditions to the contrary, it is customary to presume that the last exchange of terms and conditions are the ones that apply.


10 Ensure your invoices are correct in every respect: correct order number; name of person placing order; clear product description; correct coding; quantities actually shipped; correct price; extensions correct; right invoice address; payment terms reminder. Provide no excuse for the invoice to be disputed and thus payment delayed.


11 For critical accounts, e.g. significant sums of money or reluctant payers, consider calling the customer a week before payment is due to ensure there are no problems and that payment can be expected on time. This can pre-empt non-payment excuses but also enables you to resolve any queries and minimise the risk of late payment.


12 If not paid on time -- suspend supplies immediately explaining why. The success of your business cannot not be prejudiced by a customer. Any trading relationship is intended to be mutually beneficial, not customer biased.


13 Bad payers are always poor customers. Do not persevere too long – drop them in the nicest possible way with a pleasant letter to the M.D. explaining why. This can sometimes restore a good trading relationship. But be cautious.


14 If you offer any prompt payment discount, ALWAYS match it with a late payment penalty! There is a legal right to claim 8% above bank rate on late payments. Imposing the penalty should not prejudice the trading relationship if it was clearly stated in communications, e.g. T’s & C’s, quotations, order acknowledgement, and invoices, providing always that your trading terms had been accepted for the transaction.


15 If, despite all your best endeavours you get a delinquent debtor, you should have in place a system that can be followed to deal with the situation. Ideally, it should provide guidance as to what process should be followed in relation to the size or complexity of the debt. Reminder letters, solicitors letters, small claims court or winding up order.


16. Using the sledgehammer to get paid – Check which is best for you!:- Money claim on line process :- Guidance notesSmall claims court process start here:- Guidance notesThird party debt order look here:- Guidance notesWinding up order look here:-Guidance notes


17 Taking Revenge:- Using the small claims court seek a “Third party Debt Order” enforcement. This freezes the defendant’s bank account until you are paid in full!or Issue a “statutory demand” which if not satisfied within 21 days, allows you to seek a winding up order from the court. This can be pursued for any sum in excess of £750. Whilst this may not get your payment it may give you the satisfaction of closing down the delinquent company. Both these options can also be used effectively in warning letters to delinquent payers
 
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Mitch3473

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Aug 25, 2011
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Do you not ' know somebody...' I was in a similar position and few months ago. Solicitors letter did nothing and with further costs at around £200/hour for no guarantee. I was introduced to a really nice guy. 2 phone calls later my money was waiting, it cost me £200 mind you but the cash was there.
 
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Minnie123

Free Member
Sep 27, 2016
39
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As in know someone do you mean a debt collector? I know that Tommy of that programme "the sheriffs" I didn't know whether to go down the court or that route? it's so confusing?

I am tempted to remove the windows but his wife is always there and she's like a bulldog lol - also I have been told if I do that I could get done for criminal damage and trespassing- does anyone know about this?

so confused about what route to take. I have a contract signed by the customer saying the windows belong to me until payment is made.
 
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Stop fannying about! You have sent a letter-before-action, so now you have to take action. Get title to your debt through the courts and then you can send in the heavies.

This - I appreciate it is only recent, but speed is your friend here - get your MCOL claim in now!

DON'T follow the advice given by Rymer or Mitch unless you are prepared for an ongoing 'situation' - which apart from anything else will ruin your chances of legal recovery
 
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simon field

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Feb 4, 2011
6,854
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In my experience, courts pick & choose which bits of pre-action protocol apply. In your case you've evidence of previous communications, and that you've taken adequate steps to resolve the matter with your debtor so I'd just do it now if it were me.

The sooner the court papers arrive on their desk the better, imho.
 
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Newchodge

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  • Business Listing
    Nov 8, 2012
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    If your letter stated that they had to pay within 7 days, then give them 7 days. If they pay within that time, but after you have issued proceedings you will not be able to claim back the issue fee. Also the basic pre action protocol requires that you give a minimum of 14 days.
     
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    14Steve14

    Free Member
    Business Listing
    May 18, 2010
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    www.railwayscenics.com
    As you have sent an LBA, you must follow through with what the letter said you would do if payment is not received. After the 14 days, used MCOL and start the proceedings. Make sure you fill out all information required clearly and keep to the point. Do not waffle or go off topic. Dont make it personal keep it to business.

    As your debt is quite large, you could always transfer the debt to the high court should you win. It may also be the time to start doing a bit of background work and checks on the debtor. Hopefully they will have assets or money to pay. What ever you do, do not go round and take your windows back, I think that is not allowed, but someone may clarify otherwise.
     
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    Root 66 Woodshop

    If it was me, and I do not know if this is possible, I'd pop round during the day and remove the windows!

    And... if you did this you'd probably end up being arrested.

    Whether they've paid or not, because you've installed something to replace something to a building unfortunately you're not actually allowed to just remove them due to non-payment... if you had the old windows however... you could pop them back in (but I doubt very much you have them :) ) without any hassle from the PC plodders. :D again though that would be all at your expense... and you obviously wouldn't get paid for replacing the clients windows. :)

    If it was the case of an alarm or something "removable" then it wouldn't be an issue... other than your time/cost.
     
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    S

    suitontherun

    Do you have any mutual contacts that could intermediate? I heard of a similar situation with drainage/gutters not being paid for and a mutual connection, a local accountant, made a phone call. The combination of embarrassment, social encouragement and diplomacy recovered the funds instantly with a 10% discount. Of course the customer is financially strained that is another story...
     
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    Minnie123

    Free Member
    Sep 27, 2016
    39
    1
    regarding the 7 days that is what it says on the Thomas Higgins letter, why would they say 7 if it should be 14 I assumed they would just do everything correctly. Another thing how do I even know they received the letter - every time I sent a letter I did it signed for so I had proof. I don't think there is any chance of sorting this with the customer, I think he planned to not pay from the start. Do you think I have a good chance of winning in court considering I have a signed contract, I negotiated with him trying to amend the problems he stated there were and I even offered him to pay just cost or let me take the windows back? I really feel like he is one of those types who always gets away with it.
     
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    Newchodge

    Moderator
  • Business Listing
    Nov 8, 2012
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    The rules changed last year. It used to be 7 days.

    You probably have a good case, but it is impossible to say without seeing the evidence. It is more important to know whether the customer can afford to pay.
     
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    Minnie123

    Free Member
    Sep 27, 2016
    39
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    Does this sound ok for the MCOL claim :

    I am a sole trader operating a double glazing
    business, I fitted a houseful of windows and
    doors at the defendants home address. The
    defendant has been invoiced £3,600 and is
    refusing to pay (This was reduced by £200
    from the original agreed quote per contract
    of £3,800, due to me injuring my foot and
    thus the timescale I advised increased). The
    defendant signed a contract with me that I
    have an original of. I have corresponded with
    the client via phone, text message and 2
    signed for letters which he received (I have
    copies of these). He replied to the first
    letter and I responded with solutions and
    answers to the issues he stated. The
    defendant stated he did not want me back on
    site and thus I offered the defendant without
    prejudice to pay a reduced cost to cover only
    materials or alternatively arrange a date for
    me to remove my windows. I gave him 14 days
    to reply and have had no reply from him. I
    sent a LBA through Thomas Higgins on the 26th
    September 2016. As I have had no reply I am
    making this claim.
     
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    Root 66 Woodshop

    Indeed.

    Legally he wouldn't be able to remove his property because even though they've gone against the contract by refusing to pay or even withholding payment he has removed their property and discarded it...

    Unfortunately if the police are called he could be arrested for causing damage to the property - not because he's removed his product, but because he's taken theirs out...

    The police would act as an intermediate but normally the OP would stand a better chance by contacting a bailiff/enforcement officer and having them attend - if they're at the property and the police are called the police will deal with the bailiff/enforcement officer over the resident/tenant or the OP.

    We see it all the time in our trade, sometimes it's quite amusing when the coppers inform the tenant/resident that we have the right to remove our property so unless they want to risk the chance of being burgled pay up and take us to court/contact Trading Standards if they feel that they've been unfairly treated by our company... it never comes to it from us, but I do know a couple of Lockies out there that have been taken to court... over bugger all and they've always walk away with no issues, because they've never caused an issue. :)
     
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    Newchodge

    Moderator
  • Business Listing
    Nov 8, 2012
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    Newcastle
    See what you think of this:

    "I am a sole trader operating a double glazing business.

    On x date I gave a quote to the defendant of £3,800 for fitting x number window and x number doors at x address.

    The defendant accepted the quote and signed a contract for the work on x date. The work was carried out on x date to x date.

    Unforeseen circumstances meant the work took slightly longer than anticipated so I reduced the cost to the defendant by £200 and invoiced him for £3,600 on x date.

    The defendant raised no issue about the quality of the work until after he was issued with the invoice. At that point he raised certain (minor?) issues, but refused to allow me to deal with the alleged issues.

    The defendant has consistently refused to pay my invoice. I advised him on x date that I would proceed to legal action unless a satisfactory settlement were made, but no such settlement has been made.

    I claim £3,600 plus interest from the due date of payment to satisfactory resolution."

    Put detail instead of 'x'. I don't know if the issues would be considered minor? or not, so include that if appropriate.
     
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    Minnie123

    Free Member
    Sep 27, 2016
    39
    1
    That sounds good the only thing is the customer actually bought up minor issues the whole way through the job eg, there was too much dust caused by me sanding the plastering I had to do to make good, he made me refit the bay window as the original was out of square so I fitted it correctly and he said he wanted it like the old one so i fitted it again as he asked and then after the job was completed he complained it was out of square. Another issue he said there was no supporting baypole to the bay window and his builder friend said he needed one. It's a flat non load bearing roof so no baypole is required (I attached a print out of the guidelines for needing baypoles along with a google image picture of his house to show how it was not load bearing. This is why I suspect he wasn't going to pay from the start as he just made different issues up every day.
     
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    Minnie123

    Free Member
    Sep 27, 2016
    39
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    should I put in the statement about the letters I sent or will they request them at a later date. I was really thorough with them I went through each point the customer complained about 1 by 1 and either offered a solution or advised why it was correct enclosing supporting evidence.
     
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    Not really. They've breached the contract and have the property of the OP.

    Happens in the trade everyday. Two outcomes, the customer pays up or the OP get their property back.

    So will you be offering the OP an Indemnity against repercussions from this illegal action?

    With reasonable experience in collections my observations would be

    - this type of 'direct actions' happens far less than it is talked about

    - the people who talk about it are seldom the people who do it

    - the people who do it are up for the - potentially serious - backlash
     
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    Big G

    Free Member
    Dec 15, 2010
    495
    144
    Firstly, I'm sorry to hear about your current situation with this customer.

    Secondly, I'm amused to read some of the useless comments and advice above like "do you know a guy that can sort it" and "go and remove the windows".

    If you followed any of this advice then you end up the person in the wrong facing a potential criminal record, potential costs order and the definite loss of funds owed to you. Needless to say you should ignore people that clearly have no idea about this sort of thing!

    So, you have done the right thing by trying Thomas Higgins as their costs for the initial letter before action is very competitive. However, I am not sure what their costs would be to issue the claim for you and (from what you have said about the customer) legal proceedings are inevitable.

    I've dealt with lots of people like this before who sound like they are "won't pay" than "can't pay". The very fact that you invited them to pay for the materials only and was ignored is evidence to this but this ignorance will also work in your favour when/if the matter gets in front of a Judge.

    What were your payment terms and what does your signed contract say about non/late payment? What does your contract say about snags or defects too?

    If you would like me to take a look at it for you (no cost, no obligation) then drop me a private message or look us up and give us a call. I will be happy to help!

    Nick
     
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    Root 66 Woodshop

    As a side note - keep all details written down as to what you have actually done above and beyond as a tradesman - despite him claiming them to snagging points the fact that you've done what he's asked in the first instance and then had you put the window back - only shows that he's being a complete tosspot... and treating a tradesman as a mug.

    An installation of any kind should not incur supposed "outside help" from anyone - you're a professional who has been given a job - had it been the case that you were in fact a cowboy - going from experience you would never have done the snagging points... it would have been quite simply a "yeah I'll get on it" then leave site never to return.

    You've acted professionally and deserve to be paid.
     
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    Minnie123

    Free Member
    Sep 27, 2016
    39
    1
    Everyones help is so much appreciated I can't tell you.

    This is the section in my contract regarding payment :


    Payment

    a) A 10% deposit will be payable at the time an order is placed, stage payments may be payable and the balance of monies is due within 7 days of the submitted final invoice, presented to the customer on completion of all works. The customer will not be entitled to withhold payment by reason of any alleged defect.

    b) All goods remain the property of the company until payment has been received in full. The company reserves the right to remove its products if the customer fails to make full payment at the agreed time, although this will not negate the whole of the debt. The company will charge interest at half of one % per week, or part thereof, on any overdue monies
     
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    Minnie123

    Free Member
    Sep 27, 2016
    39
    1
    I have really tried to be reasonable I drove past and the windows are still in and look good. I am worried the customer could make the job look bad eg pulling out sealing, trims etc... if they require an independent surveyor to go look at it. They also moaned they now have to redecorate the house but at the time they said they were going to redecorate after anyway. It's worrying as it's mostly all verbal discussions so it's who the judge chooses to believe. I do always make good around windows and replaster where needed. My contract states this :


    Installation

    a) The company will make good any damage caused in the course of installation to plaster floor rendering or brickwork immediately surrounding any window or door installed by the company but under no circumstances can the company undertake to provide matching ceramic or other tiles or specialised finishes such as Tyrolean or Pebble-dash, nor can the colour of the making good or rendering be guaranteed to match the existing rendering. The company does not provide or apply any decorative finish to such making good.

    b) The company and its servants will do their utmost to keep any damage to a minimum but it cannot guarantee to avoid damage to wallpaper or paintwork surrounding the installation and any redecoration as a result of such damage shall be the responsibility of the customer.

    c) The company will not be liable for damage of any description arising from the installation or use of the products where such damage is due to defects in the fabric of the building which existed prior to the installation of the company’s products whether such damage was detected at survey or not. The company will notify the customer of any such defect if it is thought that the defect will prejudice the performance of the company’s products.
     
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