New Website & CRM - £15,800 lost

[Rich Purseglove]

Hi guys,

Hoping to get some preliminary advice before I start throwing good money after bad.

Around 18 months ago we were introduced to a web development company to discuss getting our business online. After several meetings and being told we could "have anything we wanted as it would be completely bespoke" we began the project.

Briefly, the project consisted of a CRM system and front end website/blog to be designed from scratch and to our specification.

After several months of back and forth emails about design inspiration, spreadsheets with data fields etc. the ball was in their court to get things started.

Several months went by and after chasing and chasing I was told things were getting to the point of having templates for us to review. I went to their offices to agree a basic layout of the site and was presented with two sheets of A4 paper with a VERY basic layout and no content. I clarified that we were just agreeing the layout of those two pages at this point as the design was nothing like what we envisaged. I was assured this was the case and the design would take shape as it was built out.

Several months later and after asking several times about the actual design of the site, I was told it was ready to test. This had taken well over 12 months and when I logged in, it was clear that the company had bitten off way more than they could chew. It looked like something that a child had put together on Wix. The CRM system didn't function, there was no website content, our logo was all pixelated and warped so I replied to explain that I was extremely disappointed and there was literally nothing to test.

The company immediately started to refer to their contract and the legal standpoint which was a surprise as I was hoping they would try and rectify the situation. It became clear very quickly that they were not going to rectify anything and I offered to come to an amicable agreement to go our separate ways and they return some of the money to us in order to go elsewhere. I had lost all faith in their ability to deliver the project.

We had paid £15,800 which I know is very foolish on our part, but it was a trusted introduction in the first place and we had built what I thought was a good relationship over the course of a year. Despite the fact they had done very little productive work and nothing which could be used by us to take elsewhere, I offered them a settlement of £5,800 and return £10,000 to us which I thought was extremely fair.

Their response was "you can continue to work with us or you are free to go elsewhere but there will be no refunds".

It had caused so much stress at the time that I just put it on a back burner and walked away as I didn't have the energy to try and take it to court. Having now moved on and about to embark on another website project, I've decided I would like to pursue this as it's not an insignificant amount of money.

Does anyone have any advice on where to start with something like this?

Thanks in advance
Rich

 

[The Byre]

You could start by telling us the name!

We get reports posted here like yours every few months and the chances are that this is a company we have come across before. There are several like this, usually working from a London accommodation address or sporting a W1 address that is totally and completely fictitious. I can only advise you as to what to do from here if I know who we are talking about. Some of these jokers have money and property and will cough-up if pushed and some melt away like the snows of winter!

 

[Rich Purseglove]

Ah ok, I didn't know the policy on naming and shaming. So the company is a local company to us, (removed by moderator)

Best wishes
Rich

 

[intheTRADE]

The Byre is spot on. You have been had unfortunately

Even just looking at their website screams alarm bells. Their case studies just list scenarios and never mention any clients names or have any feedback published by clients which leads me to believe instantly that have no clients

 

[BLP]

Hi Rich, you have given them a 5 star review on google - 2 years ago? Probably want to look into taking that down if you can.

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

Got to be worth taking them to court. Just the threat may make them pay up. However, you will need to spent a lot of time (and money) engaging things like expert witnesses.
Might as well post a link to your site for some honest feedback.

 

[mattk]

I would start by asking them for a detailed breakdown of what they think they have done, how the costs are apportioned and how closely they think they are to completion.

From your perspective, a lot will depend on how detailed your requirements were. I would go through what they have delivered with a fine tooth comb and identify what meets your requirements, what is a partial met requirement and what hasn't been delivered.

This should allow you to quantify how much has been delivered and whether you have a realistic case.

 

[tony84]

Personally I would take their name off this page. Handy for us, but last thing you want is a claim against you.

I agree, ask for a breakdown of what they have done and charged for, also ask for copies of everything on file.

Then you have a choice, involving a solicitor or letter before action followed by taking them to court.

On a side note, I spent about £2k on a CRM system which was ok but not great. I drew a line in the sand and moved over to zoho which is very very good.

 

[intheTRADE]

Quick check on LinkedIn and I found their MD straight away. He also used to be a copper

Have you tried contacting him directly on there? He won't want the agro of courts etc

 

[The Byre]

The MD Ian Francis has a history of 13 companies that have closed. All in the SE of Englandshire, but now officially registered at <removed by moderator> are minus £92,000 (2018). Trading address is <removed by moderator>.

Time to see a lawyer and take a print-out of everything inc. their T&C with you.

 

[Mr D]

The MD Ian Francis has a history of 13 companies that have closed. All in the SE of Englandshire, but now officially registered at <removed by moderator>. Net assets of '<removed by moderator>. are minus £92,000 (2018). Trading address is <removed by moderator>.

Time to see a lawyer and take a print-out of everything inc. their T&C with you.

Sounds like he could close a 14th company too.

 

[fisicx]

The MD Ian Francis has a history of 13 companies that have closed..

I had a run in with him years ago. Threatened to take me to court because I slated a website built by his company. Pretty much every word he speaks is a lie.

@Rich Purseglove - you can try and take legal action but the chances are he will go bust not long after the first solicitor's letter arrives.

 

[gpietersz]

Even just looking at their website screams alarm bells. Their case studies just list scenarios and never mention any clients names or have any feedback published by clients which leads me to believe instantly that have no clients

Agreed, that struck me too. Also the stock images.

We had paid £15,800 which I know is very foolish on our part, but it was a trusted introduction in the first place and we had built what I thought was a good relationship over the course of a year.

Did you pay up front or did they manage to persuade you that multiple payments were due?

Cold comfort, but you are not the only one to be had like this. I know other people who have been charged similar amounts without really knowing what they were paying for. Like a lot of non-technical (at least as far as IT goes) people trying to manage a technical project (even if outsourced) you probably do not know what it is reasonably to expect to be done by when, or for how much. That means you rely on relationships and trust, and that is exactly what a certain type of person is good at faking.

 

[billybob99]

Sorry for your loss. R.I.P little money notes.

You've been dealing with one of the most incompetent companies you can find. They can't get their own website right, how are they going to build you a bespoke CRM.

 

[intheTRADE]

I've done a little more digging into this guy because I am starting to see a lot more of these fraudsters popping up and I wanted to see how low this one really was.

You may be interested in his other website <removed by moderator> - Its a white label version of Simvoly Website Builder (think Wix, but worse) and his pricing offers websites from £5 - £12 per month which resonates with what you first said about it being something like a kid knocked up on Wix. Nothing bespoke at all. Its a website builder - https://simvoly.com/

I wouldn't let this one drop for the money involved. Keep on at him, ruin him online with reviews (honest reviews of course) and try to prevent other people falling for his scams

 

[The Byre]

Whether or not this is a nice guy or can or cannot build a website is somewhat irrelevant. What is relevant is that he has kept this company going for quite some time and that it is the only part of his activities that seems to be able to survive a cursory investigative glance. Any thorough due diligence and the whole facade falls apart.

The fact that he has kept it going for some time and at a loss would suggest that there is money to be had.

The OP's next step is to take everything to a lawyer and find out IF he has a case. And that IMO is one big IF!

 

[Paul Norman]

These people have form.

But also....the alarm bells should ring earlier. It does not take 'months' to get the provisional design work to you for agreement. Not even 2 months.

You have been tucked up, and there are a number of ways and reasons. That is a shame. But do not throw more money down this alley.

I would talk to one of the website/software companies on here, and start over. And get them to commit early to timescales, and project milestones, and hold them to those. If I say a design will be with you on Wednesday, you get on the phone on Thursday and ask about it. If my answer is not good, it is unravelling.

 

[gpietersz]

@The Byre is absolutely right. See a lawyer. It is very likely he is making money from the business so will pay any damages you win in court rather than face liquidating it. As at the last accounts date they had cash and fixed assets. The apparent technical insolvency is due to "other debtors".

@intheTRADE interesting. It probably explains why he is a second level LinkedIn connection of mine - the common connection is a "sales funnel builder".

I would talk to one of the website/software companies on here, and start over. And get them to commit early to timescales, and project milestones, and hold them to those.

Paying per milestone, and discontinuing a project is good advice but you need to have clear agreements about what the milestone is to include. You cannot change you mind and expect the cost to stay the same.

There is a danger in being too paranoid though. There are good reasons projects do not go to plan and with a system of any complexity (which the price suggests it was supposed to be) some things are going to go wrong.

I do most of my work on an hourly basis (no fixed milestones, no fixed spec), and I have a lot of happy customers. I think it works better for customers (most people!) who cannot produce a detailed spec. Its a lot better than having a detailed spec that keeps changing.

 

[Big G]

Hi Rich,

Looks like Admin have taken down the name of the company before I had chance to see it and have a look at them. Be grateful if you could PM me the details so I can take a look at them myself.

As a lot of the other posters have said above, there are a lot of companies that seem to sell "bespoke website building" services that they simply cannot deliver. We currently have several cases ongoing for customers who are in almost the exact same position.

From what you have explained you do have a valid claim against them but, ultimately, it will come down to what was in their terms that you agreed to (as long as they can prove you agreed to them) and what was promised to be delivered compared to what was delivered. It will not necessarily come down to who says what but what each party can actually prove. If you are confident that you can prove that you were mis-sold a service / product then you should be confident in your claim and continue.

More than happy to have a look in to the debtor company for you and the contract / terms and conditions and let you have my opinion if you like.

 

[antropy]

We had paid £15,800

Did you pay it all upfront? If so then that is extremely dodgy and would have sounded too many alarm bells even before they began! Alex

 

[antropy]

Check out the blog site of "Olly" a guy who is MD of a web agency and was scammed by another scammer (as we were ourselves) and we teamed up with a whole load of other freelancers and agencies who were scammed by the same guy. You might find he's encountered this company already and is willing to help you - he's a great guy.

Needless to say Olly and myself are like rottweilers when it comes to being ripped off and we got our money back in the end. My story here . Olly's story here.

Either way you should definitely pursue this because that's a lot of money to lose.

Paul.

 

[Mark T Jones]

I'd go with much of the advice on here.

Draw the line - find a good developer to work with taking on board the lessons learned.

If you decide to pursue this character/company (in my view you definitely you should), set it as a personal challenge - don't let it take over your life and don't throw loads of money at it - even if you win you might never get your money back. But, with the right mindset it can be cathartic and educational.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

I may have missed it if someone has already asked, but what did your agreement/contract with them give as a timeline?

 

[Rich Purseglove]

First of all guys, thank you so much for all of your input here. Very useful and i've been back and forth over whether it's worth it, but my gut feeling is that we're not the only ones here and if everyone has the opinion of "draw a line and move on" then he's literally raking in money for nothing.

Just to give some background, I was introduced to this guy by a close friend in business who had obviously been lied to by this guy about what he could deliver and his other clients etc. It was more of a personal intro than a business intro and therefore, being a little naive, there was an element of trust there just off the back of the referral.

At our initial meeting, it wasn't difficult for him to come across to me as an expert as he knew a little more than I did. I believed everything he said and he gave me a log in to one of his other clients sites to review the CRM element. I never thought to ask to see more clients as this one seemed to answer my questions, however I now realise it probably wasn't a client at all and in fact just a made up back end to show people.

I met with him on 26th July 2017 for the first time following the introduction. We then went away to work on what we wanted and whether this was the kind of site we needed etc. etc.

It was towards the back end of 2017 when we decided to go ahead and we had a couple more meetings early 2018 in order to talk in more detail about what we wanted. We finally engaged them to go ahead in the spring of 2018 and I received a digital "General Service Agreement" to sign. This is an excerpt: -

Services Provided
1. The Client hereby agrees to engage the Contractor to provide the Client with the following
services (the "Services"):

1. Bespoke 5 template CMS website
(Design completed from specification provided by client, pdf proof to be supplied by
<company in question>, then design to be agreed by client) - NEVER PROVIDED

2. Bespoke Customer Relations Manager system
(Design completed from specification provided by client, Excel proof to be supplied by
<company in question>, then design to be agreed by client) - NEVER PROVIDED

3. Bespoke Workflows - Customised and automated emails
(Design completed from specification provided by client, Excel proof to be supplied by
<company in question>, then design to be agreed by client) - NEVER PROVIDED

4. Hosting -To provide 12 months SuperFast hosting & Domain management. - NEVER PROVIDED

5. Support - To provide 12 months support and advice in use of the website & CRM system. - NEVER PROVIDED

6. 12 Months Google My Business service (Build & Maintain) - NEVER PROVIDED

7. 12 Months Onsite SEO services - NEVER PROVIDED

8. 12 Months Google remarketing - NEVER PROVIDED

9. 12 Months email marketing - NEVER PROVIDED

10. Any additional advice consultation on marketing avenues. - NEVER PROVIDED

After sending a very detailed email explaining what we wanted from each page (including sample pages we liked the look of from both a design and functionality perspective), 7 months later we were provided with a login to "Test the site". This took a lot of chasing and in the meantime, I had visited their offices to have a look at progress so far. I was presented with two printed A4 sheets of paper with a VERY basic layout and nothing like any of the sample sites i'd sent. He explained that this was only the framework layout being agreed at this point as the design would come together nearer the end, so in principle I agreed that the elements were roughly in the positions we'd suggested.

Once i'd raised my concerns, he came back with the following and this was the first mention of legalities: -

"I agree you gave us in August a number of website designs and URL's to show us the kind of website that you wanted. As agreed we then provided a PDF website proof based on these suggestions. As you acknowledged in your email you saw this and agreed that you were happy with this design and we should proceed on this basis. I was surprised you did not want to make any changes, but I know you were under pressure to get the project completed. However, we followed your instructions at all times, which was the correct thing to do.

At no time Richard did I say we would produce a number of designs from that draft, as your emails confirm you were expecting a website not further designs. I have again looked at the PDF proofs and they match the produced website. So I am disappointed you wish to change the designs that you agreed too on the 20 September. Bespoke websites do take a considerable amount of work compared to DIY sites, more so when they have customised functionality as yours does. This is why we provide PDF designs so that the agreed build is approved before we start. It is not uncommon for clients to have a change of mind, so by providing a PDF for a bespoke we are covered legally."

My frustration is that they have not taken on board anything that i've raised. Instead they've done what they think is best and come up with something that doesn't work at all.

I don't really want to throw lots of legal money at this, but i'm willing to fight my own corner via the small claims court as I don't believe they have a leg to stand on should get go to court.

Cheers
Rich

 

[Rich Purseglove]

I may have missed it if someone has already asked, but what did your agreement/contract with them give as a timeline?

There was no formal timeline as he gave the excuse that it was largely down to me providing them with the information they would need.

 

[antropy]

I don't really want to throw lots of legal money at this, but i'm willing to fight my own corner via the small claims court as I don't believe they have a leg to stand on should get go to court.

Small claims court, submit the form online today £60 cost, paste what you wrote above with any more evidence you can find and go from there:
https://www.moneyclaims.service.gov.uk/eligibility/claim-value

Paul

 

[intheTRADE]

Dont suppose you still have the login details do you?

 

[gpietersz]

I believed everything he said and he gave me a log in to one of his other clients sites to review the CRM element. I never thought to ask to see more clients as this one seemed to answer my questions, however I now realise it probably wasn't a client at all and in fact just a made up back end to show people.

It could easily have been just an install of an open source CRM, or even just a white label CRM.

 

[intheTRADE]

It could easily have been just an install of an open source CRM, or even just a white label CRM.

Looks like a white lable of Zoho https://ticketyboo.business/tours/digial-pa/

 

[Rich Purseglove]

Dont suppose you still have the login details do you?

It's been taken down unfortunately. I have the print off A4 sheets somewhere which i'll try and locate. I wish i'd have done some screenshots at the time.

 

[fisicx]

It's been taken down unfortunately.

Because he knows he's been caught.

What happens is he takes you money and outsources the work. His chosen country is very good at sausage factory stuff but useless at innovation. Which means you would have never got a working site no matter how much you paid or how long you waited.

 

[Mr D]

It's been taken down unfortunately. I have the print off A4 sheets somewhere which i'll try and locate. I wish i'd have done some screenshots at the time.

It may well be that the moment legal action is taken the company starts to shut down.

Assets moved, money pulled out etc.
So you may well end up chasing a company that has no money and no assets. And soon dissolved like his previous ones, wiping the debt.

So don't expect anything and don't invest lots of time and money in chasing.

 

[gpietersz]

I wish i'd have done some screenshots at the time.

Did the CRM look like the system in @intheTRADE 's link to them above?

If so it looks like it was not a bespoke system at all. They were just reselling access to an off the shelf system.

 

[Rich Purseglove]

Did the CRM look like the system in @intheTRADE 's link to them above?

If so it looks like it was not a bespoke system at all. They were just reselling access to an off the shelf system.

Yes it looked exactly like that.

 

[Big G]

Small claims court, submit the form online today £60 cost, paste what you wrote above with any more evidence you can find and go from there:
https://www.moneyclaims.service.gov.uk/eligibility/claim-value

Paul

It will not be £60.00 to issue a claim via money claim online. A fee of £60.00 relates to a claim between £500 - £1000. This claim is £15,800.00 and therefore well above the small claims limit of £10,000.00. The court fee will be calculated at 4.5% of the claim so will be £711.00 and not £60.00.

The details supplied above do really outline that you have clearly paid for a service that was not provided and, in my opinion, you should not let this go. However, I also agree with Mark T Jones that you should set this as a separate challenge and set a limit as to what you are prepared to throw at it. Do not let it consume you or your business as you might win the case but that does not mean that you will get payment if he knows how to evade enforcement.

 

[gpietersz]

@intheTRADE does Zoho have a white label CRM product though?

 

[antropy]

It will not be £60.00 to issue a claim via money claim online. A fee of £60.00 relates to a claim between £500 - £1000. This claim is £15,800.00 and therefore well above the small claims limit of £10,000.00. The court fee will be calculated at 4.5% of the claim so will be £711.00 and not £60.00.

Fair point but the OP said they were willing to only ask for £10k back which may be worth doing as the cost is tiny and the process probably easier. Paul.

 

[Big G]

Fair point but the OP said they were willing to only ask for £10k back which may be worth doing as the cost is tiny and the process probably easier. Paul.

Agreed it may well be worth limiting the claim to £9999.99 and the Court Fee will therefore be reduced to £410.00. However, if he is going to go for it then it will be more cost effective to spend the extra £301.00 as the potential return is over £5k more.

I believe that I have also found that the other party in question is not actually a limited company but just claims that it is.

 

[intheTRADE]

Agreed it may well be worth limiting the claim to £9999.99 and the Court Fee will therefore be reduced to £410.00. However, if he is going to go for it then it will be more cost effective to spend the extra £301.00 as the potential return is over £5k more.

I believe that I have also found that the other party in question is not actually a limited company but just claims that it is.

It is definitely a limited company. I've followed him on LinkedIn since this thread and had a browse of his companies at Companies House

 

[intheTRADE]

@intheTRADE does Zoho have a white label CRM product though?

I am not sure. Just the screenshots look very familiar to Zoho and other off the shelf products. Its certainly not bespoke, I know that much