New Employee off sick for two weeks in first month of employment

[Nichs]

I have a new starter that joined on the 16th April. She is full time and has so far only worked 3 days and has been off sick the rest of the time on two separate occasions. I want to get rid but HR say we have to be careful due to her having on going medical issues.

She suffers from endermatrosis and has admitted to coming off morphine a week before starting work. She thinks It is mainly this that has caused her to be ill .

She has mainly been off for being sick and then hospitalised due to low blood pressure due to not being able to eat.

She was then hospitalised for panic attacks and then started being sick again... on two of the days she did not contact me and I couldn't get in touch with her due to her being in hospital without her phone.

She has since been in touch to update me .

Surely we have grounds to dismiss her even with her on going medical issues.

Many Thanks

 

[Newchodge]

It depends on whether her endometriosis counts a s a diability under the Equalities Act. She is recognised as suffering from a disability if she has a condition which substantially affects her normal day to day life and if it has lasted or is expected to last for more than 12 months.

You cannot just dismiss someone because of their disability you have to consider reasonable adjustments, which may include allowing them more sick leave than would be the case for someone suffering from a disability. It is the disability that matters not 'ongoing medical issues'.

Being unable to contact you because she is in hospital is not unreasonable, although being hospitalosed for panic attacks is unusual.

You have an HR department - use them. Discuss the benefit of obtaining an occupational health report before making any decision.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Did she make you aware of her problems during the Application Process, or did you ask directly?

 

[Newchodge]

Did she make you aware of her problems during the Application Process, or did you ask directly?

Presumably you are not suggesting that, had she disclosed a disability during the application process, she would not have been appointed, are you? because, of course, that would have been immediately illegal.

 

[obscure]

I think what he was asking was if she withheld that information during the hiring process.

 

[Newchodge]

If she was asked directly and lied, there may be an issue, both for the employer and the employee. If she wasn't asked, there is not.

More appropriately, she should have been asked how much working time she had lost to ill health over the last 12 months, assuming, of course, that she was working prior to taking this post.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Is not your own HR responsibility, to be aware of all things, and to come up with a working solution to the problem, even if this means getting paid professional advice, rather than free opinions from a forum
I could understand the request from a small company without inhouse HR looking for free advice to move forward

 

[Anon38246]

As an employer you have to make reasonable allowances under the circumstances, this is not classed as a disability, however under the circumstances you need to give her the benefit of the doubt, I am certain she would be feeling very stressed about this situation, so it would be wise to arrange a meeting at a time convenient for her to discuss her situation and return to work in a compassionate manner. You cannot fire someone on medical grounds though. You need to give her a chance to work in the role and prove her capabilities to meet the requirements of the role and follow due HR process if she fails to achieve targets required.

 

[Newchodge]

As an employer you have to make reasonable allowances under the circumstances, this is not classed as a disability, however under the circumstances you need to give her the benefit of the doubt, I am certain she would be feeling very stressed about this situation, so it would be wise to arrange a meeting at a time convenient for her to discuss her situation and return to work in a compassionate manner. You cannot fire someone on medical grounds though. You need to give her a chance to work in the role and prove her capabilities to meet the requirements of the role and follow due HR process if she fails to achieve targets required.

Err NO.

If she is not classified as having a disability you can sack her tomorrow, with 1 hour's notice, because she is in breach of her contract by not attending.

What benefit of the doubt should she be given? What doubt is there? She is unable to work due to ill health. Unless she is disabled she is not entitled to any reasonable allowances or anything else.

You can fire someone on medical grounds.

She has already failed to meet targets required - the target of regularly attending work.

The ONLY reason that care needs to be taken is because she MAY be classified as disabled.

 

[Mr D]

As an employer you have to make reasonable allowances under the circumstances, this is not classed as a disability, however under the circumstances you need to give her the benefit of the doubt, I am certain she would be feeling very stressed about this situation, so it would be wise to arrange a meeting at a time convenient for her to discuss her situation and return to work in a compassionate manner. You cannot fire someone on medical grounds though. You need to give her a chance to work in the role and prove her capabilities to meet the requirements of the role and follow due HR process if she fails to achieve targets required.

Not classed as a disability? Who is required to class it?

 

[Newchodge]

Not classed as a disability? Who is required to class it?

There is a definition of disability within the Equalities Act, I paraphrased it above.

Basically it is for the employer to decide (with advice from medical professions) if they should treat someone as disabled, and if they get it worng the Employment Tribunal will help them understand the error of their ways.

 

[Nichs]

I knew she had medical problems before she did say what she had but it was under control now with regular treatment. She had the experience to do the job.. my main problem is she has only rang me twice it's me ringing her a couple of hours after shift start which goes against company policy. Every time we speak she gives the impression she will be in the next day save for a couple of occasions, therefore leaving me in the dark about what is going on. On going medical issues aside and if care does need to be taken surely we have grounds to dismiss by not following absence policy. I've been in hospital before when I should have been at work and still managed to get a message across to let them know the situation.

 

[Newchodge]

I knew she had medical problems before she did say what she had but it was under control now with regular treatment. She had the experience to do the job.. my main problem is she has only rang me twice it's me ringing her a couple of hours after shift start which goes against company policy. Every time we speak she gives the impression she will be in the next day save for a couple of occasions, therefore leaving me in the dark about what is going on. On going medical issues aside and if care does need to be taken surely we have grounds to dismiss by not following absence policy. I've been in hospital before when I should have been at work and still managed to get a message across to let them know the situation.

It depends on how reasonable your absence policy is, and whether she has valid reasons not to have followed it.

I would still recommend discussing an Occ Health referral with your HR department.

 

[Nichs]

Ok update she was due to return back to work on Tuesday... didn't show and when I rang her she said doctor got date wrong and she should have been back on Wednesday.. send me a copy of doctors note by email.. the return date has been tipexed over and new date hand written when the rest is computerised... is this normal?

Then didn't hear from her Wednesday and today she emailed me to say she had been burgled and that's why she is off and couldn't contact us due to having her mobile pinched.. if it is true it is really bad luck but to me seems too much like a coincidence. Can we ask for a crime reference number and then check it with the police to ensure she is being genuine or would this be too insensitive. Bear in mind since she has been with us a month now and only in the office 3 days

 

[Bob Morgan]

Have you suggested that she pursues her career elsewhere?

 

[Newchodge]

Can we ask for a crime reference number and then check it with the police to ensure she is being genuine or would this be too insensitive. Bear in mind since she has been with us a month now and only in the office 3 days

Why on earth would you bother. Tell her that it is not working out. Pay her 1 week full pay notice and accrued holiday (she accrues holiday during sick leave) and tell her goodbye.

Sorry, just re-read the thread. What does your HR department recommend?

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Are you sure you are not just looking for reasons not to dismiss her, as you are a inexperienced manager, and scared of making decisions, because that it what it sounds like.

Also you need to demand action by your HR department , who seem a waste of time, or you are not talking to the person higher up the chain of command, to get some action taken

 

[The Byre]

Are you sure you are not just looking for reasons not to dismiss her, as you are a inexperienced manager, and scared of making decisions, because that it what it sounds like.

+1

 

[STDFR33]

Good employees still get sick. They can be sick shortly after starting a new job. That's life.

Other employees are sh1t and make excuse after excuse. This is one of those employees.

Stop dithering. Get them sacked and move on.

 

[Nichs]

Ultimately it's down to hr to issue the termination letter. I've told them she needs dismissing. HR have had legal advice to say that in her having endermatrosis she is protected under the equality act and we can only dismiss on performance not absence.. she has now been with us a month and has been in 3.5 days.


Even with her disability I find this unacceptable, we've offered flexible hours and as many breaks as she needs.

Hr have stated she is playing the system so we have to be careful. I think they are worried about her filing a claim for unfair dismissal but even if she did with all the points above considered surely she does not have a leg to stand on?

 

[Nichs]

The final straw came when she has been off again for the past two days, yesterday she did not ring in until 2.30pm saying she slept through and must be because she did not get any sleep night before as she was in agony.. I find this highly unbelievable to sleep through till this time.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

With such poor management its a wonder the company is still trading,maybe you should name it so that the shareholders can enjoy the story

 

[AWA Training]

I've worked in logistics where if people didn't work, they didn't get paid. If off sick, that's fine, but expect no money for it. Absentee levels dropped right off.
I think its a tough one isn't it, is it genuine or lack of desire to come in. New employee? Where were they before?

 

[BustersDogs]

The final straw came when she has been off again for the past two days, yesterday she did not ring in until 2.30pm saying she slept through and must be because she did not get any sleep night before as she was in agony.. I find this highly unbelievable to sleep through till this time.

Not that I am defending this person, but I have a friend with ME, and she can't function until around that time of day either. Luckily she works for herself, so has made many adjustments, she works from 2pm to 11pm, and has staff cover mornings most of the time.

So I am with you in that she sounds difficult to have working for you, but if she genuinely has a chronic pain problem, then not being functional until 2pm wouldn't be that unusual.

 

[Chi Doan]

Is it possible to work remotely?
I think 2 weeks in hopital, but we often get cover 90% just after couple days, so in the other days, you can allow her to work remotely.

May be hard because she is new also.

 

[kkfcXHzmCc]

She's definitely making things up. Get rid.

 

[Mr D]

Not that I am defending this person, but I have a friend with ME, and she can't function until around that time of day either. Luckily she works for herself, so has made many adjustments, she works from 2pm to 11pm, and has staff cover mornings most of the time.

So I am with you in that she sounds difficult to have working for you, but if she genuinely has a chronic pain problem, then not being functional until 2pm wouldn't be that unusual.

Yes its hard for those even with some functionality as your friend has.
A friend had it for years and eventually got himself a job where he could work a few hours here and there once he was functional.

OP, this employee sounds like someone that you don't need in your workplace. And I say this as someone who has been off long term sick from a job.
They will be accruing holiday pay you have to pay as well. How much do you want to pay out?

 

[Newchodge]

Foir heavens sake. You have an HR department and they have had legal advicec. You would rather rely on advice from a bunch of complete strangers whose knowledge of employment law is undetermined.

Having ranted that bit, I disagree with your legal advice. You cannot dismiss because of the disability but you can dismiss if the disability is so severe that the employee cannot fulfill their role even with reasonable adjustments.

 

[kkfcXHzmCc]

Foir heavens sake. You have an HR department and they have had legal advicec. You would rather rely on advice from a bunch of complete strangers whose knowledge of employment law is undetermined.

Having ranted that bit, I disagree with your legal advice. You cannot dismiss because of the disability but you can dismiss if the disability is so severe that the employee cannot fulfill their role even with reasonable adjustments.

I agree. The OP has offered reasonable adjustments but the person in question has not taken them. Definitely being taken for granted I think!

 

[Bob Morgan]

The 'Contract' was never fulfilled! Just like Godot - She never arrived!

 

[Mr D]

The 'Contract' was never fulfilled! Just like Godot - She never arrived!

Who is Godot and what does he or she have to do with the OP's problem?

 

[Newchodge]

Who is Godot and what does he or she have to do with the OP's problem?

'Waiting for Godot' It's a play about people waiting for Godot, who never turned up.

 

[Bob Morgan]

'Waiting for Godot' was a play by Samuel Beckett! - Godot (Main Character) never arrived!

 

[ethical PR]

She's definitely making things up. Get rid.

And you know that how exactly?

While from what the OP says this is unsuitable employee.

You have no direct knowledge of the employee so can't make definitive statements like that.

 

[kkfcXHzmCc]

And you know that how exactly?

While from what the OP says this is unsuitable employee.

You have no direct knowledge of the employee so can't make definitive statements like that.

Ok apologies, I'll just add - my opinion from what the OP says.

 

[Stedurham]

HR need to get a specialist involved to cover your ass, especially if shes playing system chances are shes probably done it before and knows the legal ins and outs better than your hr will

 

[Mr D]

'Waiting for Godot' was a play by Samuel Beckett! - Godot (Main Character) never arrived!

Thank you for that. Never seen it or heard of it.

 

[DocsWizard]

I appreciate that this can be very frustrating. I hope you get a result soon.

If you have an HR Department and don't want to fall out with them or get yourself in trouble, you need to let them guide you. They will have policy or precedent to refer to that you may not be aware of and will be able to help with getting medical input if needed to confirm disability. They will be focusing on the risk you might be taking if you decide to dismiss before you have a solid understanding of the health situation. HR departments can sometimes be risk averse as they know the time and cost involved when it goes wrong, but just make sure you are explaining the impact.

They will probably wish to set up a paper trail to ensure they can demonstrate that reasonable steps have been taken and to ensure that they mitigate any risks of a discrimination claim if you do decide to dismiss.

You absolutely can dismiss for ill health. It is even possible to dismiss someone who is disabled. BUT you can't dismiss someone who is disabled just because they are disabled.

 

[TODonnell]

I scanned this thread.

If the employee can't be bothered calling in = bad sign number 1.
If they throw in another excuse on top of being ill (being burgled) = very bad sign number 2.
If they come in 2.5 days in a month = ha ha ha.

You get Homer Simpsons who have lots of problems and who generate a lot of sympathy and use up a lot of time and emotional energy, and then you have the Good Mouse who works hard, doesn't take time off sick and who people barely notice.

A small company can't afford even one Homer Simpson, really. Not financially or any other way. Let them go, politely, and find work with a larger, richer entity that has turned in on itself to create an internal culture of laxity, which can support such expensive dilettantes.

 

[The Byre]

No company can afford even one Homer Simpson, really. Not financially or any other way. Let them go, politely, and find work with a larger, richer entity that is doomed to failure and has turned in on itself to create an internal culture of laxity, which can support such expensive dilettantes.

Fixed that for ya!