Myob/Mamut big problem for our business

[Udo]

Hello all,

I am new here, and see there are already many posts regarding Myob, but still wanted to add my experience.

We have been using Myob since the year 2002 using V10 and V11. Very good software, easy to use, does all we need. The software is so good, that we did not need upgrades for many years, it did run always on the very latest operating systems without a glitch.

However, we decided in December 2007 that it was time to upgrade to V16 (stupid!) hoping that we could benefit from the latest added functionality and improvements. V11 only needed a license code , whilst the latest versions like V16 and V17, need regularly online re-activation / revalidation .

Everybody on this forum probably knows about the dark clouds on the horizon, so guess what? With Myob UK sold to Mamut, Mamut is going to discontinue the Myob product line forcing us to move to their own software packages costing an absolute fortune in comparison to what we paid for Myob. Still, this would be not a problem for us, if we could keep on using our V16 for at least a couple of years. But of course, here is the problem: Once the Myob product line is discontinued, they will also discontinue the re-activation process of paid-for software in use with their present customers!!!

Our story is not finished:

We had a team of professional web-developers optimizing the export (from our website shopping cart) of transactions, customer accounts, purchase orders, Invoices, products, so that we could all download and import it all straight into Myob. A functionality which took us month's to develop!

Now Mamut is going to block us using a piece of software (Myob V16) for which we paid. And the time building this web integration with our website going to be a complete waste of time!

We just wonder if this is not illegal?? Blocking people using software for which they paid?

Many thanks for any commends.

If I had the money, I would love to meet these guy's in court!


Udo

 

[Tom McClelland]

Clearly if you bought and paid for a software package that needs online licencing/validation it is incumbent on the seller to maintain the availability of that service. Or to provide you with a means of maintaining the licence in perpetuity if they can't be bothered to keep their online licencing system running.

Anything less would seem like a sound reason for no-one to ever buy anything from Mamut again. The ethical obligation to deal decently with existing users fell on Mamut once they purchased myob.

For some of us their behaviour is good news. We've already made a considerable number of sales of our payroll software to disaffected (read that as spitting blood) people who've discovered the joys of having their previous supplier taken over by Mamut.

 

[Udo]

Hello Tom,

Many thanks for your reply. It's unbelievable. Called the Office of Fair Trading, called Customer Direct helpline, they all are not willing to do anything about this. It seems that only people with lot's of money in their pocket to pay a solicitor might be able to fight against such companies having a complete lack of respect for their customers.

Actually it would be good if a whole group of Myob users come together and sue this company!

Thanks again for your very clear answer, could not agree more!

Udo

 

[Melonline]

Hi Udo

I just rang Mamut and they say it will be about a year before MYOB is withdrawn for PC users and longer for Mac users as they as yet do not have an equivalent. They also said their software is similar to using MYOB and you can import all your data seamlessly! However, I notice they are still selling MYOB on their website at half price... that is naughty!

 

[Melonline]

Sorry Udo Mac version half price, PC is full price!

 

[Tom McClelland]

Hi Udo

I just rang Mamut and they say it will be about a year before MYOB is withdrawn for PC users...as they as yet do not have an equivalent.

Does that mean that they'll continue to issue licence codes for the version that the OP possesses? Which would be the right thing to do and I'd withdraw my comments upthread. Or that they'll cheerfully sell him another latest release, that he doesn't need?

 

[Udo]

Hi Mevyn Page,

Thanks for enquiring.

I contacted today Jonathan White the owner of: myobshop.co.uk who was Myob Partner of the year in the UK. He build up a business for over 10 years around Myob, so he knows the ins and outs of it all.

Some of the below information I got from him, but not all:

1. Mamut promised to continue Myob after they just bought the UK version.
2. Later onwards re-sellers were introduced by Mamut into the packages they (Mamut) have developed.
3. These package are ridiculous expensive + customers are being forced to pay for monthly for support + and Jonathan told me that these Mamut packages are not coming anywhere near to what Myob is capable of!
So in terms of quality of the product and pricing, not a good alternative for Myob users at all.

4. He also told me that it is in breach of the license agreement, making a fully licensed copy of the software dis-functional by switching of the re-validation servers.

5. I asked Mamut if , in case it would be easy to migrate from Myob to Mamut software (which they told me it was) , if it also would be possible to optimise with a simple script the data we export from our website, so we could import it not only into Myob, but also into Mamut software. It's critical for us, since we spend month's developing this feature!
They still have not called me back as they promised.

6. Myob Australia still seems to be in control of the validation servers, but Myob Australia told me on the phone that they do not have the control, which seems to be a lie!

7. Why Mamut is selling Myob, and really cheap right now at this point?? Ha, simple, because they hope next year to force people start using their super expensive software with the promise of an easy transition. What a joke!

Anyway: In short: Mamut is NOT having a reasonable alternative for PC and for Mac it is none existing, whilst Mamut already made the decision to stop the validation of Myob Mac version in April 2011. I was using V11 for 6 years without the need of any upgrade and prefer to use V16 just as long and I will do all I can.

As a result: I already reported the issue to the Office or Fair Trading, Customer Direct Help Line, and the Federation of Small Business (FSB) from which I am a member.
The aim is to drum up as many Myob users and start a legal battle.

This is the main reason why we are all now facing a major Credit Crunch: People only think about money and take no moral responsibility towards others. The Banks played with your and my money as if it was a casino! What Myob and Mamut are doing is not much different.

The world has to change otherwise it will simply collapse and it seems there are still many people out there who really do not understand why we are facing this Credit Crunch!

The Banks are getting away with it unfortunately. But i will all I can not having other companies getting away it this kind of nonsense!

Udo

 

[Udo]

Does that mean that they'll continue to issue licence codes for the version that the OP possesses? Which would be the right thing to do and I'd withdraw my comments upthread. Or that they'll cheerfully sell him another latest release, that he doesn't need?

Myob V17 for PC will be discontinued in April 1010 and the Mac version in April 2011.

You will be blocked from using Myob alltogether unless you still have V11 on CD (which I have) You can not migrate the whole company file back to V11, you have to export all transactions. Better is work with your latest version till the end of the financial year, close it and go back starting a new company file in V11. I am, glad, I still have it: It does not need to re-activation at all.

Udo

 

[adh2020]

I'm a MYOB user and have been for at least 5 years. Until I just read your post I thought I was just going to have to find an alternative Payroll package but would be able to carry on using the MYOB software for accounting purposes. It's ridiculous that software that you have bought and don't have to have a valid support contract for to use can suddenly be rendered inoperable. To say I am unhappy is an understatement. Under no circumstances will be be forced to become a MAMUT customer. In fact I can whole heartedly say that if I am indeed forced to change to another accounting package MAMUT will not be one I consider due to seemingly underhand business practices. I hope all MYOB customers follow suit, thus rendering their buy out of MYOB a waste of money.

 

[adh2020]

It says here myobshop.co.uk/Mamut.html that data file verification will be switched off in the last three months of 2011

 

[Udo]

Hi Adh2020,

I think we have to step a step further: Hopefully many people will read this post and will come back to me. if we can put a large group together, maybe we could start a legal action, having sufficient funds in place. Love to take legal action against these kind of people.

Udo

 

[adh2020]

What you need is a list of the 50,000 MYOB users. I'm not sure they will all seek out this forum. The seamless data import wizard just ports supplier and customer address data, no actual account info or balances is what I was told.

 

[Udo]

I informed the Federation of Small Businesss
(FSB: fsb.org.uk )

who for sure will have members using Myob, so I am already doing my best to spread the word.

Udo

 

[Udo]

I am also a member of them for many years,

Udo

 

[Udo]

Making legal obtained software dis-functional is criminal!

Udo

 

[KateCB]

Count me in - we had V17 with two user licences - mamut wanted to 'give' us their E5 software BUT we had to pay support of around £600 a year PER user....there are two users,who sit 10 feet apart - why do i need 2 support packages? We said no way and changed to KashFlow and 12pay which are doing the job so far and are a lot more user friendly (read error correctable!) that MYOB- we don't have a lot of money to spare to be honest for legal battles, but certainly our voice should help - we too are members of the FSB.

I agree that once you have bought software you shoudl be able to use it for as long as YOU want/need to, not be forced to change when the supplier decides they have had enough - interestinly I read somewhere that Mamut are 'in talks' and are about to be sold......so if we invested in Mamut this year, we might have to 're-invest' in something totally different at more cost next year!

 

[Udo]

Let's hope the FSB is going to help drumming up Myob users, that would be nice.

Udo

 

[KateCB]

Try Tony Cherryv- Northern Regional chairman of FSB - or your regional chairman, they seem to have the loudest voices in the FSB!

 

[Udo]

I already tried mt regional chair lady, but have not heard anything yet. I am from the south east. If anyone could contact him, that would be great,

Udo

 

[Brightpearl]

Unfortunately I don't think that MYOB are going to budge on this one. It's an interesting decision that they've made since they have an excellent product that's used by a huge number of people in the UK. Bizarre. You may want to have a look at this post here if you're ditching MYOB.

 

[Udo]

Will write to you soon in order to see if you can full fill all our web commerce needs (and that are a lot)

Regards,

Udo

 

[Udo]

Try Tony Cherryv- Northern Regional chairman of FSB - or your regional chairman, they seem to have the loudest voices in the FSB!

Kate, do you know the contact details from Tony, because my regional contact person is useless. 0 Reply to my email.

Udo

 

[Bryan Richter]

As there is understandable concern and confusion on this issue, I would like to summarise the Mamut position:

MYOB made the decision to withdraw from the UK market as a result of which Mamut decided to acquire part of their UK business. It was not the other way around as many people are assuming. We are now the sole distributor of MYOB products in the UK, but since MYOB have decided to discontinue their UK product we are offering a migration path to the equivalent Mamut product and offering very attractive commercial terms to do so. Like any distributor, we do not control the license agreement for the software nor the license activation process. We do not have the option to continue to sell, support or license the MYOB products beyond the dates determined by MYOB when they decided to leave the UK market.

We are continuing to sell the MYOB products on our web site because there are users who wish to buy additional licenses. At the time of purchase, these customers are made aware that the product is close to end of life. We are an ethical organisation and have no intention of misleading anyone. These users are also made fully aware of future migration options.

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']We believe that the Mamut products offer a very viable alternative to MYOB and there are many customers who have successfully and happily migrated. Unfortunately, of course, they are not the ones that typically post on these message boards. So I would encourage any concerned customers to call the Mamut support line since the team there are the same people that support the MYOB products and are therefore best positioned to give advice on a comparison between the products and how the migration process works.[/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Naturally, many of our competitors see this as an opportunity to convert the MYOB customers to their own products, as they are very entitled to do. As a result they are happy to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt on these message boards without necessarily declaring their vested interest in the issue. Many of them charge an annual support fee as we do, others charge a monthly fee for the use of the software.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Any concerned customers should feel free to call me in our Hammersmith office or speak to any of the team there. We welcome your comments and want to make this as smooth as we can for customers.
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[DuaneJackson]

Hi Bryan,

Good of you to give a public (and human!) explanation - I'm sure it'll help ease the concerns of some of your customers. You may want to also contributre to this thread.

I thought you guys had bought the UK SME customer base and the ownership of the products - not just a distributorship. If that's the case it all makes a lot more sense.

We'll continue to pinch your punters and set fire to "your" software - as we are with all disc-based accounting software products - but I hope you don't class KashFlow as spreading fear and uncertainty about Mamut. I could certainly never be accused of not declaring my interest : )

 

[Tom McClelland]

Bryan, What you say sounds fair enough and I can understand Mamut's position better now. I hadn't appreciated that MYOB was only selling its UK operation, which is down to my poor research.

So, MYOB is walking away from its UK customer base apparently without a backward glance and pocketing a cheque from Mamut as it goes. And MYOB continues to trade in other countries, but will neither maintain licensing servers that will permit its UK customers to continue using products that they bought in good faith, nor issue a means to perpetually licence those products. And MYOB hasn't included the ability to meet its pre-existing UK commitments in what it has sold to Mamut. You can presumably see why that would make people who bought those products pretty angry.

Or perhaps you can just dismiss my comments as a competitor spreading FUD. I assure you that I've not said a thing about this situation that MYOB payroll users haven't already said to me. The only reason I know anything about it is because of those people ringing up my company.

 

[DuaneJackson]

So, MYOB is walking away from its UK customer base apparently without a backward glance and pocketing a cheque from Mamut as it goes.

After cashing that cheque, and the other bigger one from CCH/Wolters Kluwer - guess where MYOB founder Craig Winkler invested over £7m of his money? A web-based accounting software company. More power to the SaaS business model.

Speaking of SaaS, whatever happened to Mamut One?

 

[DuaneJackson]

New blog post about the MYOB/Mamut stuff: How to Lose Customers and Alienate People: A lesson from Norway

 

[Chris Farrant]

The Bad...

Mamut should have made it clear on their website that they are "Distributors" of the MYOB products.

All the press releases intimated that MYOB UK software was owned by Mamut and that it would be supported until the end of 2010 (PC Version).

Mamut knew full well what they were buying was goodwill. Basically a list of MYOB Users and the licence to distribute the product for an agreed length of time to increase the size of the list.

Thats business.

But the point that seems to be missed here is the way they are attempting to go about that transition.

The current Mamut product range does not cover all the fucntionality of MYOB Accounting Plus.

The main shortfall is the integration of the payroll.

The product comparison tables on Mamut's website are misleading. It clearly lists three products with "Payroll".

This is not a tax calculating payroll indeed it is not even fully functional as a project costing "Payroll".

The empoyee register does not include a field for a pay rate. Therefore timesheets do not allow for an employee rate to be entered automatically.

To get a fully functional payroll you have to buy the "Standalone" payroll. This has no import/export function and the migration utility does not import pay rates correctly, although for small companies of say 10 employees this is not too much work to correct.

The ugly...

Advice to MYOB users from Mamut sales initially was geared towards getting the sale. Misleading the customer with scaremongering and varying support termination dates.

The good...

Of course Mamut software is going to be more costly. It is based on MS SQL Database and the licence fee costs for this have to be built into the product.

I understand that the MYOB database was written by the developer and therefore made it possible to sell very cheaply.

Mamut will support many more concurrent users than MYOB could and the software on the whole is very good.

There are going to be problems and gripes and groans from MYOB users because frankly there was never an easier accounting package to use!

I am sure that Mamut don't want to lose the investment in buying MYOB UK by alienating that customer base. But they will if they don't get the message across without any ambiguity or under hand sales gimmicks.

Mamut must realise that with the power of the internet bad news travels fast surely?

Keep trying Mamut!

 

[aussie2]

I am an MYOB Consultant and this is what we received in an email from MYOB after the takeover.

This is also what we were told to pass on to our customers. To say we have been deceived is an understatement.

We have now lost the trust of a lot of our customers and as a result have lost business.

It is highly unethical of MYOB and Mamut to have done what they have.

Please read below (part of an MYOB consultant newsletter)

Question
What sort of timescale can you indicate for providing Mac support for the existing products?

Answer
At least until 2011 and even longer if that’s what you want.

Question
Will the software continue to run as now, even if it is never upgraded
(i.e. continuity of the file confirmation process)?

Answer
The software and the terms of the agreement mean that the software is yours and shall continue to run as it does now. The file activation and confirmation process will continue as normal. Even if you are on Version 5 your software shall continue to run as normal.

 

[aussie2]

I can see that really nobody knows if it is MYOB or Mamut that have decided to do this.

This is what I know.

Originally after the takeover MYOB who were by then Mamut told us there would be no change. That everyone can continue using whatever version they are on at the time they stop supporting it.

This was confirmed in an email which I still have. Insert below.

Question
What sort of timescale can you indicate for providing Mac support for the existing products?

Answer
At least until 2011 and even longer if that’s what you want.

Question
Will the software continue to run as now, even if it is never upgraded
(i.e. continuity of the file confirmation process)?

Answer
The software and the terms of the agreement mean that the software is yours and shall continue to run as it does now. The file activation and confirmation process will continue as normal. Even if you are on Version 5 your software shall continue to run as normal.


Then I believe because they did not get enough people moving over. Mamut have decided to force peoples hands by then saying they were back tracking and going to switch them off.

So I ask you. Who is to blame. Each say the other is. Hmmm. Will we ever know.

 

[bigmedia]

So do we actually know yet whether MYOB products will continue to function indefinitely? Some people are saying it will become inoperable because MYOB will switch off the validation servers, and Aussie2's email says that it will continue to work forever.

I'm confused as to the outcome of this, and since I am about to buy MYOB I'd really like to know!

Matt

 

[DuaneJackson]

I'm confused as to the outcome of this, and since I am about to buy MYOB I'd really like to know!

Why on earth are you about to buy MYOB? Would you like to buy a betamax player too? Or a Rover? : )

 

[Tom McClelland]

So do we actually know yet whether MYOB products will continue to function indefinitely? Some people are saying it will become inoperable because MYOB will switch off the validation servers, and Aussie2's email says that it will continue to work forever.

I'm confused as to the outcome of this, and since I am about to buy MYOB I'd really like to know!

Matt

Aussie2 himself said that email about the validation servers continuing to work forever is superseded. The latest information that we appear to have on this thread is that the validation servers will be switched off in the foreseeable future. Mamut monitors this thread, as we've seen from their representative's postings on it, so they are free to contradict or clarify as needed.

Is there a particular reason why you're choosing to buy a product which (at best) is becoming obsolete and no longer developed for the UK market?

 

[aussie2]

Hi everyone.

Yes myob will discontinue. What I was adding in my last post was simply an exert from a newsletter had sent myself and other consultants.

My point is they then did a turnaround and are now saying they will discontinue it.

We all feel a little used as they not only told us verbally but also in writing and encouraged us to tell our clients that everything was ok.

People structured their business plans around this advice and now they have turned around and made liars of us.

To say we are mad is an understatement.

Is this lawful to do. You tell me. Is this ethical. You tell me.

But just to clear things up. The exert by me in a previous email was purely there to show you what we had been told after the takeover.

We are now being told that MYOB will discontinue.

Just to clear things up the latest information from MYOB is that they will discontinue. I repeat they will discontinue MYOB

 

[bigmedia]

I got a call from an MYOB rep yesterday stating that the mac version does not have a date for the shutoff yet, but the end of 2012 is around the time expected.

Matt

 

[DuaneJackson]

I got a call from an MYOB rep yesterday stating that the mac version does not have a date for the shutoff yet, but the end of 2012 is around the time expected.

Matt

You might want to get that in writing!

 

[bigmedia]

Yeah, well im not going to buy it anyway now. Its a waste of time really.

I just got a new accountant anyway, so I'm going to see how she wants me to keep books. She may have a better system.

By the way Duane, I really liked kashflow when I did the trial, I just cant justify spending the money on it yet. You've got a good product though - as long as you dont discontinue it haha

Matt

 

[DuaneJackson]

By the way Duane, I really liked kashflow when I did the trial, I just cant justify spending the money on it yet. You've got a good product though - as long as you dont discontinue it haha

Good to hear! Feel ree to give us the accountant details and we'll introduce her to KashFlow

 

[Hector.Mercury]

MYOB and NetSuite drove my team to the edge.

I see Duane has crossed swords with MYOB in the past. I am not suprised. His stuff is cool.

I am not sad to hear that MYOB is heading for the bin. As for Mamut buying them - someone in the office said "Two stones sink faster than one"....

I needed more than a small business accounting system. I don't have an online store, we sell big ticket industrial machinery to the recycling industries. We need CRM and all the other front office stuff, like tracking the salespeople and putting together sales forecasts.

After a long (too long) cogitation I chose salesorder.com. They worked really hard to understand my business, they spent hours on the phone to Melbourne and Thailand and have even modified the software and the price to fit my needs.

They are not a big outfit, they choose their customers carefully and I have got to know the whole team well.

I'm cool with this as they are definitely about quality as opposed to quantity. The guys there know small business, they know technology and they know when say no. I'm setting up in London right now and they even helped me make contacts in the UK.

PM me if you want some help here.

Cheers

Hector

Ps: I saw your comment about having no money to spend on Kashflow - salesorder.com has a free single user license (last time I looked)

 

[Venture Precision]

Hi All,

We too are a small but very pleased user of three years of the superb MYOB Accounting Plus (now V18), and are, like many, jacked off with the MYOB sell out and MAMUT scare tactics. I am trialing the MAMUT software to give them a chance, and have to say I find it clumsy and less than intuitive. The lack of payroll package means that in no way can MAMUT claim their software is a natural and advantageous progression. The MAMUT support team must be fed up with MYOB customers dissing their software, but the support team are being helpful, and they do seem prepared to neogtiate on packages and prices. I suggest you don't accept what you are first offered as a price if you are considering MAMUT.

The MAMUT representative made a very carefully worded statement earlier in this thread. He didn't say they weren't in control of the licensing servers, just the terms of their agreement with MYOB means they would not be "allowed" to continue licensing installed MYOB software. If this is not the case, would the MAMUT representative please confirm in plain english who physically controls the authorisation process.

It seems to me that if there is such an agreement as part of the disposal of MYOB UK to MAMUT, then this part of it is invalid as neither party has the legal right to disable MYOB software sold to users in good faith, and to do so invites court action. (Imagine Microsoft disabling Windows XP!)

I suggest that MYOB release the relevant wording of their agreement with MAMUT to defend their position, and so it can be legally challenged if necessary. Further, if neither company want to continue supporting the validation servers, they could release a patch that users can apply to remove the validation requirement (PLEASE don't tell me that it is too expensive or can't be done easily).

If no patch is forthcoming and users continue to face the threat of denial of the use of their software, then every user should feel able to sue MYOB in the UK small claims court on the basis that the contract agreement between MAMUT and MYOB is unreasonable to MYOB users in the UK, (a very powerful argument in law), and hence invalid. Any action taken by MYOB, or lack of action, that results in MYOB users being unable to use their software due to licensing issues could allow for all costs associated with transfer to a new package (within the small claims court limit) to be claimed. You don't need loads of money to do this, and even a few successful claims would be very, very expensive for MAMUT. Message to MAMUT: think again - quickly.