MLM dying in the UK?

[Grencolur]

cjd, you are certainly an experienced member of this forum with 8000+ posts where I am a prima donna so to speak. However, whether you have 1000’s of posts or 1 post on this forum, if you are against networking as you are, whether it be MLM or a Feeder to an online program, sarcastic responses to statements/systems that are an ancillary to a particular program without knowing its contents as I made in a previous post (refer below) are expected.

“However there is a system out there that I am happy to share with anyone, that allows you to enter these huge paying programs for just a one off payment of $25.
Feel free to PM me if interested.”

Brasso, you certainly made your presence on the forum with your rant mate. Maybe you should get your facts in place before you start your bellowing. I was in no way endorsing AMWAY if you had taken the time to read the post. I was merely stating what the local travel agent was telling me and contributing to the AMWAY discussion on the forum. I must agree with one comment in your post that “no-one makes money from MLM thru distribution”. However it seems you are of the same view as cjd when it comes to online programs so really, your response based on your attitude and no knowledge of what I am stating/offering is irrelevant. Brasso, you made the comment on another post ‘……..then please offer links to their website on this forum with an outline of the business and how it works and how we can all make money’ It is my understanding that links to each individuals program are not allowed on this forum Brasso. Correct me if I am wrong.
As for the magic beans, I’d give them away.

To conclude guys, leveraging your time is one of the ingredients for making money. MLM, Network marketing or whatever you like to call it uses that principal as do many other businesses. I can understand, that because the online game has many rogues and scams which by the way have caught me out too, that any comment relating to such programs gives negative criticism, especially if you have been bitten in the past.

We live in a democratic society, freedom of speech and all that stuff and therefore I will exercise that and say that the big $$ are in the the big payout programs unless you want to go out there and recruit 1000’s upon 1000’s of people to make a dollar. And once again, if you are interested in becoming involved in these big $$ programs without the big entry fees feel free to send me a PM. Because Brasso, as far as I am aware, you cannot post your link on this forum.

Cheers everyone

 

[sellickbhoy]

i'm sure if you are at the top of the tree, there is money in MLM

Jamie Oliver has started in it now, theres a man who really needs a buck

But, i've yet to meet a serious, professinal business person who exists solely in MLM

they might have all tried it - lets face it, they have all had a look in order to get started, but they all quickly move on when they realise they are better off working for someone than peddling their wares for little reward

it is a pin money business, a hobby, a social business.

all my opinion of course. But i don't see anyone wanting to spend their lives handing out betterware catalogues for a living.

 

[Grencolur]

The only people that will make the dollars from betterware catalogues and other MLM articles are those with mammoth downlines and unless you have the exceptional gift of the gab or a list that follows you around, you are flogging a dead horse. Simple as that.
As I said you get big dollars from Big $$ programs and you dont need a massive downline either. Commonsense really

Cheers
Tony

 

[scotmum]

You know that you would be better off buying some of these products (books/diaries/candles/toys, etc) off the companies at wholesale prices. For example you can join one MLM book company and 'reap' around 27% in commission from any sales you do, or you can buy the books from the same company wholesale for 45% off retail value. This way you can peddle the books your own way as opposed to the stringent rules of some of these MLM companies. That said, even at wholesale price you would still twice the price of Amazon anyway.

The MLM companies are now offering websites for the people that work for them - for a monthly fee - but they are weak in terms of SEO and are linked to the main site where you can buy the stuff from the main distributor anyway. On line sales through the companies main websites (Avon, Usborne, etc) are going to signal the end of MLM and those awful forced 'parties' at someone's home where you feel embarrassed to leave without buying anything and then have to wait a week or longer for the person to deliver it.

 

[Bri]

...UW Scam as asked by OP and came up with this article 2nd on google listing.

http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/dec/05/utility-warehouse-telecom-plus-distributor

whilst its not a resume it highlights the pos and neg of the company.You cna also find similar rants and raves about B/Gas B.T. and other utility providers.

This will be news to some of you but I recently became a UW distributor recently. I take a more practical approach to it, if I can save you money I will, If I cant then no harm done, I cant beat your current providers.Every utility company have their merits and its horses for courses.
I think Ashley & cjd pointed out that UW & Herbalife are doing well (any company that can afford new marketing material must have some sort of income) in the current climate.

I actually researched UW for six months before I joined,the highs, the lows,the complaints, disgruntled distributors, attended their meetings with my sponsor( who is a respected member of this forum) and formed my own opinion of the business. There are various aspects of it which attract me.

I also listened and looked around the rooms at the people who attended, I'm sorry my overall opinion of them wasnt nice, they are the ones that dont make it in this business or business at all.

In essence my overall view is that many people who sign up for any MLM opportunity do not realise it is a self employment opportunity, it is actually your business and you have to work at it to make it work. If UW has say 33,000 distributors, how many actually put the time and effort in, lets say a third and as Ashley pointed out quite rightly pitching at tea time because thats the only time you have after your own work is not the way to do it ( and there is a strict UW code about phoning people between those hours)

For every one bad experience

I tried MLM once with Utility Warehouse, and gave up pretty damn quickly (I guess that makes me a quitter and someone who doesn't want to succeed). It was a horrible setup. The blatant ripoff printing costs for promo materials, the rubbish peddled about having the cheapest rates etc, which isn't even remotely true, and then "sponsors" who kept phoning me telling me I should be selling UW to customers of my existing business (I call this "pissing them off") and even suggesting I focus on UW and let my existing business fester!

Never again!

Theres always one good one :

http://www.esthercallis.com/

Draugen, my opinion is completely unbiased, I have another business which is growing and currently taking my time, I dont subscribe to the experience that you have had with UW and if you were a member of my team that is certainly not an approach I would have you make to any of your existing business customers and my upline would agree with me.If what you say is true about the tactics then you should have said something to HQ or one of the directors as that is something I would definetly frown upon.

 

[sandfire]

Isn't there always.

MLM like any other occupation is a matter of choice. A good analogy is "trying
on over-coats". If you try on an over-coat and it doesn't fit what most
right thinking people do is place it back on the hanger and try another one.

What most right thinking, grown up people don't do is go around passing
snide remarks about the overcoat that didn't fit them.

 

[sandfire]

There are people who have made a lot of money from MLM firms - but so many people see them as get rich quick schemes.

I think that some of the companies do themselves no good by not ensuring that their distributors have "districts" or territories; I've mentioned before on UKBF about the number of Utility Warehouse reps that turn up at networking events.

Also, they make it sound a lot easier than it actually is. The phrase I think is the most misleading is "work when you want" or "work in your own time" - this is utter cobblers! You have to work when your customers are available.

If you're a mother/father who has the hours of 10-2:30 free because your child is at school, what's the point of becoming a distributor of an MLM firm where your target market is not going to be around until early evening - just when you're doing the tea for the family?

What you say, tells me that you really don't understand the MLM concept.

Cheers

Gordon

 

[sandfire]

My turn for a Friday Rant against MLM and all it stands for



I don't think that this is just 1 Amway sub system, this is the Amway business in general. Products bought mostly by distributors and their families (who feel sorry for them). I have yet to hear of an MLM business that you make good money selling the product. This is because there are better sales channels for genuine products and MLM is the domain of shabby products and shabby practises. Sorry, but there you are.




'Swimming in Money'. That is a really vague term and people who use terms like this are usually lieing, not fibbing but bare faced lieing. Please, ask Jerry and Mandy Scriven if they are 'swimming in money'. Ask Gerry Harties, ask all the other guys who made sack loads of money selling books and tapes and other 'tools' whilst saying that the 'tools' were non profit. No one makes money from MLM through distribution, no one! Who is this mystery person who told you of a mystery person, who is swimming in money. Wait, I heard this one, the 3 bears come in after or something?
As regards the MLM for $25 for a business, I have magic beans for only £10. Please PM for details... Give me a break.



Please back up this statement with fact.

Personal Note:
This forum should be for people seeking genuine advice, not for snake oil saleman to push their nonesence. Please, anyone reading this thread, Google whichever business you are thinking of and then add 'bad' or 'rubbish' on the end and see what comes up.

If anyone has a question I will answer it on this forum for all to see, will the other MLM guys do that or do they want a PM.

Thanks
Phil

Kleeneze is a Network Marketing company. I hope that Gavin Scott or Bob
Webb will forgive me for mentioning their names as just two out of many,
many Kleeneze distributors who could be likened to "swimming in money".

Kleeneze publish in their presentation videos the incomes of the distributors
that appear in those presentations. Those figures have to be accurate
otherwise the legal ramifications could be severe for Kleezeze. Both Gavin
and Bob have appeared in the Kleezeze videos presentations from time to
time and their incomes have been there for all to see.

If you haven't seen those presentations and don't know what their incomes
are, then you are ignorant which means that before you shoot your mouth
off about MLM being a load of rubbish, perhaps you should do a little more
research.

Being a Network Marketer doesn't suit everybody, but neither does being a
surgeon, or an accountant, or a formula one driver, or an actor for example.

I don't know what your trade or profession is, and even if I did, I would
probably have heard some not so good things about it. So just be careful
about attacking other occupations because you are affording the victim
the right to attack yours.

Although we all fail to keep our mouths shut when we have nothing good
to say, it is worth keeping in mind.

Cheers,

 

[Beachcomber]

.........before you shoot your mouth
off about MLM being a load of rubbish, perhaps you should do a little more
research.

As someone who spent 2 1/2 years involved with an international MLM organisation, and met many others during this time involved in similar set up's in the UK I can quite honestly say that the MLM systems strength is it's ability to prey on the unsuspecting.

 

[sandfire]

As someone who spent 2 1/2 years involved with an international MLM organisation, and met many others during this time involved in similar set up's in the UK I can quite honestly say that the MLM systems strength is it's ability to prey on the unsuspecting.

I get the impression from your post that you feel that the MLM companies
are at fault, rather than the "unsuspecting".

By unsuspecting, I take it that you mean they have not done sufficient "due
dilligence". Who is responsible for that?

Cheers,

Gordon

 

[garyk]

You might want to go and check out many of the other postings on here Gordon regards MLM, there are some balanced debates but as a concept it does polarise opinions no doubt about that. No-one is attacking you personally but you seem very defensive to others who don't share your view of MLM.

 

[sandfire]

You might want to go and check out many of the other postings on here Gordon regards MLM, there are some balanced debates but as a concept it does polarise opinions no doubt about that. No-one is attacking you personally but you seem very defensive to others who don't share your view of MLM.

I have, on and off, spent over 4 decades in Network Marketing, both as
Networker and as the CEO of one company.

During that time, you would have thought that I would have got used to all
the chatter and noise about Network Marketing that comes from people
who aren't actually in Network Marketing, but despite that, seem to think
that they are experts.

Most of the time I manage to ignore it, but every so often, it gets on my
wick and I respond.

I just wish people would comprehend the significance of this one
statement. "If you are not in Network Marketing, it is because you do
not understand it."

Even if you have been in Network Marketing, but are no longer involved, it
is simply because you do not understand Network Marketing.

In my view it is unethical and extremely unfair to others, to be advising
them on any subject that you do not understand.

Cheers,

 

[Beachcomber]

By unsuspecting, I take it that you mean they have not done sufficient "due dilligence". Who is responsible for that?

Yup - thats the kind of response I'd expect.

The truth is, the vast majority of people who enter into MLM schemes are not aware of what MLM is. They simply see an ad, respond, are interviewed and accepted for the job - so many people believe they are actually employees!

You would expect someone to excercise 'due dilligence' when entering into a franchise / partnership etc. but when the recruiting so often mirrors standard PAYE position recruiting it is not hard to see why the less experienced or business savvy get hooked in. At the end of the day, why would the average person suspect the were being sold rather than recruited?

Then you have the selling of dreams, promises of high income, case studies of Mrs. A who went from a council house to mansion in 6 months (ok, an exaggeration, but you get the point)

It's all very well thought out. I know, I've been there and done it - and before you write me off as one of the negative ones who tried, failed and blamed the system I actually did very well, in 2 1/2 years I worked up to Area Distributor status with a large team working for me. I just couldn't hack the sheer levels of manipulation anymore.

 

[gibby]

I understand you comment as I have been in several mlm companies over the years. Your are right that some firms are unethical & just prey on ppl.
I was with NSA for a short period & some groups were just looking for those with money to front load stock.

I was also with Kleeneze until recently & its very different as you will not make money from the people you sponsor, unless you show them how to make money.
Its a waste of time signing up ppl who you think are not going to work. In any genuine MLM firm you will not make money from signing someone up. They have to be able to move product to make money themselves & you only get paid a % of the product that moves. Signing up Mcnuggets is just a waste of your time.

From all of the mlm firms I have been in Kleeneze were the most ethical but they do have some issues as not everyone plays the game nicely.

The original idea behind mlm was that you join to move product to make money & then recruit others to do the same & get paid a % of what they do.

Sadly this is not how most mlm firms work.
Amway, Herbalife etc in the UK are just buyers clubs. You join to buy at a discount & hopefully get your friends to do the same.
This means there is very little turnover per head & it dosent matter how big your % over ride is unless you have millions of ppl.
The problem is if your agents are not making money (just buying) they wont stay in the business.

Buyers clubs & affiliate schemes may be classed as mlm but they really are not MLM. They do not follow the original intention & I can see why ppl get so hacked off as its so difficult to make money.

I think we have to remember that mlm is a business & that means products & services need to be moved.
If you can't move product to make money then its not a good mlm business

G

 

[sandfire]

and before you write me off as one of the negative ones who tried, failed and blamed the system I actually did very well, in 2 1/2 years I worked up to Area Distributor status with a large team working for me. I just couldn't hack the sheer levels of manipulation anymore.

Thanks for doing the job for me.

 

[sandfire]

I understand you comment as I have been in several mlm companies over the years. Your are right that some firms are unethical & just prey on ppl.
I was with NSA for a short period & some groups were just looking for those with money to front load stock.

I was also with Kleeneze until recently & its very different as you will not make money from the people you sponsor, unless you show them how to make money.
Its a waste of time signing up ppl who you think are not going to work. In any genuine MLM firm you will not make money from signing someone up. They have to be able to move product to make money themselves & you only get paid a % of the product that moves. Signing up Mcnuggets is just a waste of your time.

From all of the mlm firms I have been in Kleeneze were the most ethical but they do have some issues as not everyone plays the game nicely.

The original idea behind mlm was that you join to move product to make money & then recruit others to do the same & get paid a % of what they do.

Sadly this is not how most mlm firms work.
Amway, Herbalife etc in the UK are just buyers clubs. You join to buy at a discount & hopefully get your friends to do the same.
This means there is very little turnover per head & it dosent matter how big your % over ride is unless you have millions of ppl.
The problem is if your agents are not making money (just buying) they wont stay in the business.

Buyers clubs & affiliate schemes may be classed as mlm but they really are not MLM. They do not follow the original intention & I can see why ppl get so hacked off as its so difficult to make money.

I think we have to remember that mlm is a business & that means products & services need to be moved.
If you can't move product to make money then its not a good mlm business

G

Hi Gibby,

Every Network Marketing organisation including Amway, does not want
their distributors getting locked into selling products. If they did, they
would place all the rewards at the lowest level and employ door-to-door
salesmen and women.

Kleeneze which as you know, has a very effective method of retailing
its products, has structured its payplan so that people can go part of
the way to covering their team building expenses by retailing. The
retailing was never designed for anything else.

I went down the retailing route with Kleeneze. I ended up working
everyday of the week, delivering and collecting catalogues, dealing with
product deliveries and returns, banking and much more.

As a result of this I worked 60 - 65 hours a week. My wonderful better
half added an extra 5 hours a week (she works full-time anyway). The
amount of money I earned was about half the minimum wage and I had
no time available to build a team.

On the other hand, Bob Webb, who I know well, started by dropping
catalogues off to 150 houses. He collected them, noted that he got orders
, processed the orders, delivered the products, banked the money, paid
Kleeneze and never ever retailed again.

For those of you who don't know, Bob is one of the very top earners in
Kleeneze.

All he needed to prove was that the books generated orders and anyone
could retail with Kleeneze.

From then on he concentrated 100% on building his team because he knew
that some would retail, some would team build and some would do both.
The majority would drop out, because either they never actually saw what
they really had there hands on, or lost site of it somewhere down the line.

Many modern MLM companies operate on the basis of personal use, rather
than selling products. Minimum monthly purchase of product qualifies you
to earn commisions. I believe the first company to adopt this approach
was Life Plus.

So by sponsoring, you would be combining moving product with team
building. That has simplified that side of things.

The only challenge left to generating an income is the one of finding
enough people. Fortunately, I and my team no longer have that problem.

I hope you have found something for yourself. If not I hope you do so soon.

Cheers

 

[Brasso]

In my view it is unethical and extremely unfair to others, to be advising
them on any subject that you do not understand.

That's a bit like saying only double glazing salesmen can offer advice on double glazing, or only insurance salemen can offer advice on insurance. I am not an expert in double glazing but I can talk about my experiences good and bad regarding the companies I have met and the double glazing I have purchased. If I say something that you believe to be incorrect then you can come on and say, accoring to this set of facts you may be mistaken. It is not unethical for me to discuss my experiences.

I have experience of Network Marketing. I am giving my opinion on Network Marketing based on this and research I have done. I have not spoken beyond this knoweledge. If you feel I have please quote where.

I have accepted any errors I have made during my posts. I will admit to any other errors if you can make a compelling argument that something I have said is in error. Will you state the same?

I will publically answer any question regarding MLM that you choose to ask. Will you do the same? State it here that you will answer pubicly any question related to MLM and your business. I am sure there are plenty of people who have questions.

Re: People making money.
I have never met or heard of anyone with any credibility who was making money from distibuting and building a downline in MLM. I have now found 3 possible names and the info sounds good so far. Take this against the many people who say that have lost money. How many millions of people loose money every year through network marketing every year? I have met, in the flesh, plenty of them.

Bottom Line: If you have a good business then put it up to scrutiny and you will sign up loads of people. Tell me about poeple 'swimming in money' and I'll call you on it in front of everyone.

Re: Being a Network Marketer doesn't suit everybody, but neither does being a surgeon, or an accountant, or a formula one driver, or an actor for example.

I don't think we can compare being a networking marketing distributor to a formula 1 racing driver or a surgeon, unless you want the other extream of cult member (which is what I felt I was) included in the list.

Hey, don't take it to heart, remember,
Success comes in a can, not in a can not
The curve that sets everything straight is a smile (so relax)

I think you failed your 'attitude test' in some of your posts, so just shout 'Next!' or say, 'thanks for the buck you 9 to 5 shmuck'... etc, etc, etc.

 

[Brasso]

I just wish people would comprehend the significance of this one statement. "If you are not in Network Marketing, it is because you do not understand it."

Even if you have been in Network Marketing, but are no longer involved, it
is simply because you do not understand Network Marketing.

I believe the reverse is true. I got out of network marketing as soon as they told me the real money was made flogging books and tapes and rally tickets to unsuspecting people and that no one really makes any money out of selling over priced soap (or insert your overpriced product).

That website your linking to is based in Poland. Are you a memeber? Do you pay $60 to get a list of prospects or are you just getting affiliate hits from it?

 

[Beachcomber]

Hey, don't take it to heart, remember,
Success comes in a can, not in a can not
The curve that sets everything straight is a smile (so relax)

I think you failed your 'attitude test' in some of your posts, so just shout 'Next!' or say, 'thanks for the buck you 9 to 5 shmuck'... etc, etc, etc.

Don't forget "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams"
"The race is not for the swift, but for those who endure"
...........and all the other 1980's Brian Traceyesque American motivational carp.

I think Sandfire finds it hard to imagine someone was succeeding within an MLM but stepped away because of ethical conflicts with the MLM system. He must convince himself I was failing or he'll 'neg' himself out!

 

[sandfire]

That's a bit like saying only double glazing salesmen can offer advice on double glazing, or only insurance salemen can offer advice on insurance.

Correct.

I am not an expert in double glazing but I can talk about my experiences good and bad regarding the companies I have met and the double glazing I have purchased.

Correct, but to attack the entire industry because you had a bad
experience with one or two companies, doen't make sense. That is
what you appear focused on doing to the MLM industry.

If I say something that you believe to be incorrect then you can come on and say, accoring to this set of facts you may be mistaken. It is not unethical for me to discuss my experiences.

I have experience of Network Marketing. I am giving my opinion on Network Marketing based on this and research I have done. I have not spoken beyond this knoweledge. If you feel I have please quote where.

I already have. You appear to be deriding the entire industry
because of your experiences with a tiny portion of it.

I have accepted any errors I have made during my posts. I will admit to any other errors if you can make a compelling argument that something I have said is in error. Will you state the same?

If you feel that you have made errors and should admit to them,
fine. I post my views on this forum. I don't expect everyone to
agree with me, nor do I expect them to demand that I admit to
making an error. In return, I don't expect an admission of error from you
or anyone else, even though I may be in disagreement. Opinions suffice.

I will publically answer any question regarding MLM that you choose to ask. Will you do the same?

Forgive me, but I thought I was already doing so.

Re: People making money.
I have never met or heard of anyone with any credibility who was making money from distibuting and building a downline in MLM.

May I recommend a little more research

I have now found 3 possible names and the info sounds good so far.

Good to hear.

Take this against the many people who say that have lost money. How many millions of people loose money every year through network marketing every year? I have met, in the flesh, plenty of them.

Makes two of us, but put against that the number of "orthodox" or
"bricks and mortar" businesses that fail. Statistics show that
95% don't make it to their 5th anniversary. How many millions of
people lose money through "orthodox" business every year. I have
met plenty of them , in the flesh. Presumably you have, too. The
difference is the amount that is lost. Do you say that going into
an "orthodox" business is bad? Not forgetting, of course, all those
that lose their jobs through orthodox businesses going bust.

Bottom Line: If you have a good business then put it up to scrutiny and you will sign up loads of people.

The number of times I've heard that line. I am beyond falling for
it now, but if you want to know what MLM I am in the link is in
my signature file

Tell me about poeple 'swimming in money' and I'll call you on it in front of everyone.

I do post on a few other boards, so I apologise if I haven't
already stated the following, here.

I understand that in many of the US states it is illegal for
MLMers to disclose their earnings, but in the UK MLMers will
often openly state what they earn. I am not a member of the
company I am about to mention, but if you can manage to get a
Kleeneze presentation DVD, you will see many distributors giving
their testimonials. At the end of the presentation, Kleeneze
openly lists the annual incomes of the distributors appearing in
the video. Some of the incomes are very small whilst others are
huge. Remember these are from an official Kleeneze video and
have to be true because the legal ramifications would otherwise
be catastrophic for the company.

Re: Being a Network Marketer doesn't suit everybody, but neither does being a surgeon, or an accountant, or a formula one driver, or an actor for example.

I don't think we can compare being a networking marketing distributor to a formula 1 racing driver or a surgeon, unless you want the other extream of cult member (which is what I felt I was) included in the list.

Oh, by all means, let's include "cult member" if it applies to
occupation and a means of income generation.

I may be misunderstanding you here, but would you accept the
term "movement" as similar to cult? If you would, perhaps you
would like to watch a video which is nothing to do with
Network Marketing, but you may be surpised at the strong
similarities between the main subject of the video and MLM.

The guy giving the giving the talk is Seth Godin. He is a very
successful entrepreneur/marketer. If he is considered to be
clever enough to deliver a speech about marketing to the Google
top brass in a different video, you may find him worth
listening to in this video.

Although Seth is, to the best of my knowledge, not a Network
Marketer and makes no mention of the Network Marketing industry,
for those of you who are still prepared to give MLM a fair
hearing, you may also begin to get a smidgen of an idea of what
MLM is actually all about. PM me for the link, please.

The curve that sets everything straight is a smile (so relax)

I like that. It's good

I think you failed your 'attitude test' in some of your posts,

What's the quotation? Ah, yes! "Physician, heal thyself" springs
to mind.

 

[sandfire]

That website your linking to is based in Poland. Are you a memeber? Do you pay $60 to get a list of prospects or are you just getting affiliate hits from it?

It is actually headquartered in the Netherlands but it has major operations in the US.

I am a member and I get the lists of prospects and I pay nearer $70 a month for them.

Cheers,

 

[sandfire]

Don't forget "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams"
"The race is not for the swift, but for those who endure"
...........and all the other 1980's Brian Traceyesque American motivational carp.

I think Sandfire finds it hard to imagine someone was succeeding within an MLM but stepped away because of ethical conflicts with the MLM system. He must convince himself I was failing or he'll 'neg' himself out!

Ah, just as I thought, Beachcomber. You appear to believe that the entire
spectrum of MLM companies must be the same and spout the same inane
mantras, that persuaded you to leave.

I left a several MLM companies because of similar, as you say "carp", but I
kept looking for an opportunity that was free of all that.

It doesn't matter to me that you've left MLM. There are plenty of other
fish in the sea.

But instead of this being a board for posts on how people can benefit from
an industry that is now over sixty years old, it has been hijacked by
you and your ilk as a place to justify your failure by blaming something,
or someone else.

You don't like the "carp" and it seems you don't like it straight,
either.

What your negativity actually does, is make me think about what I should
say in response, and this in turn re-clarifies in my mind why I am a
network marketer. Surprise, surprise, completely opposite to your
judgment of me.

Cheers,

 

[Beachcomber]

Ah, just as I thought, Beachcomber. You appear to believe that the entire spectrum of MLM companies must be the same and spout the same inane mantras, that persuaded you to leave.

No. It wasn't the mantra's that caused me to leave.
It wasn;t the failings of the particular company I was with.
Read the posts before jumping to conclusions.

I left a several MLM companies because of similar, as you say "carp", but I kept looking for an opportunity that was free of all that.

As did I - and found some very good businesses that have done very well, all without the need for MLM. Your assumptions are staggering.

It doesn't matter to me that you've left MLM. There are plenty of other fish in the sea.

Then why continue to respond?

.....it has been hijacked by you and your ilk as a place to justify your failure by blaming something, or someone else.
You don't like the "carp" and it seems you don't like it straight,
either.

Again, you have failed to actually read the posts, understand the reasoning and have fallen into the typical MLM rhetoric I have seen spouted by many, many people before.

If you look back on my posts you will see that I was not failing - in fact was doing rather well. You will also see I do not assign 'blame', I give reasons for not wishing to follow a particular business model which I see as manipulative.

There may well be an MLM business out there that does not have the usual failings and rely on the usual tactics - as yet I have come accross it despite my time in the 'industry'

Your arrogance in continually ignoring the actual content of my posts in order to cast accusations of faliure, denial and blame confirms my opinions of what kind of person you need to be to work the MLM model.

.........Surprise, surprise, completely opposite to your
judgment of me.

No. I think I'm bang on.

 

[sandfire]

No. It wasn't the mantra's that caused me to leave.
It wasn;t the failings of the particular company I was with.
Read the posts before jumping to conclusions.



As did I - and found some very good businesses that have done very well, all without the need for MLM. Your assumptions are staggering.



Then why continue to respond?

.....it has been hijacked by you and your ilk as a place to justify your failure by blaming something, or someone else.
You don't like the "carp" and it seems you don't like it straight,
either.

Again, you have failed to actually read the posts, understand the reasoning and have fallen into the typical MLM rhetoric I have seen spouted by many, many people before.

If you look back on my posts you will see that I was not failing - in fact was doing rather well. You will also see I do not assign 'blame', I give reasons for not wishing to follow a particular business model which I see as manipulative.

There may well be an MLM business out there that does not have the usual failings and rely on the usual tactics - as yet I have come accross it despite my time in the 'industry'

Your arrogance in continually ignoring the actual content of my posts in order to cast accusations of faliure, denial and blame confirms my opinions of what kind of person you need to be to work the MLM model.




No. I think I'm bang on.

I am sure you are right, but there again, I have been known to be wrong.

 

[Brasso]

Don't forget "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams"
"The race is not for the swift, but for those who endure"
...........and all the other 1980's Brian Traceyesque American motivational carp.

I think Sandfire finds it hard to imagine someone was succeeding within an MLM but stepped away because of ethical conflicts with the MLM system. He must convince himself I was failing or he'll 'neg' himself out!

Ahhh, that's made my day (wipe small laughter tear from my eye). I thought 'neg himself out' was pure class. I have friends who have been in pyramid schemes as well and we sometimes go for ours with this syrupy sweet over hype nonsence.

Well, its been fun, guys, I think anyone looking into spending money in one of these schemes has enough to make an informed judgement, so I'm bowing out. Anyone interested in my 'swimming in money' magic beans business just needs to PM me. We are offering a 'no giant money back guarantee' but its available this week only.

All the best to all who contributed in this discussion.

Thank you
Phil

 

[sandfire]

Is MLM dying in the UK?

I don't actually know, but I suspect that it has lost its monopoly with the
age of the internet and the introduction of Affiliate Marketing and Internet
Marketing.

As far as dying in the UK, I don't expect so, as there are many companies
with scores of individual distributors that are well beyond the point known
in the industry as "critical mass". This is a point at which, a network has so
many members that it becomes self sustaining and only something like the
closure of the company will stop it.

I think the reason why people experience fewer pitches from people who
they know, is because as has already mentioned many Network
Marketers are using the internet to promote their opportunity. Because
the internet is highly suitable for Direct Response Marketing (mail order),
Direct Response Marketing tactics are very much in vogue at the
expense (I am pleased to say) of the personal approach.

I hope this helps,

 

[gibby]

Hi Gibby,

Every Network Marketing organisation including Amway, does not want
their distributors getting locked into selling products. If they did, they
would place all the rewards at the lowest level and employ door-to-door
salesmen and women.

Kleeneze which as you know, has a very effective method of retailing
its products, has structured its payplan so that people can go part of
the way to covering their team building expenses by retailing. The
retailing was never designed for anything else.

I went down the retailing route with Kleeneze. I ended up working
everyday of the week, delivering and collecting catalogues, dealing with
product deliveries and returns, banking and much more.

As a result of this I worked 60 - 65 hours a week. My wonderful better
half added an extra 5 hours a week (she works full-time anyway). The
amount of money I earned was about half the minimum wage and I had
no time available to build a team.

On the other hand, Bob Webb, who I know well, started by dropping
catalogues off to 150 houses. He collected them, noted that he got orders
, processed the orders, delivered the products, banked the money, paid
Kleeneze and never ever retailed again.

For those of you who don't know, Bob is one of the very top earners in
Kleeneze.

All he needed to prove was that the books generated orders and anyone
could retail with Kleeneze.

From then on he concentrated 100% on building his team because he knew
that some would retail, some would team build and some would do both.
The majority would drop out, because either they never actually saw what
they really had there hands on, or lost site of it somewhere down the line.

Many modern MLM companies operate on the basis of personal use, rather
than selling products. Minimum monthly purchase of product qualifies you
to earn commisions. I believe the first company to adopt this approach
was Life Plus.

So by sponsoring, you would be combining moving product with team
building. That has simplified that side of things.

The only challenge left to generating an income is the one of finding
enough people. Fortunately, I and my team no longer have that problem.

I hope you have found something for yourself. If not I hope you do so soon.

Cheers

Hi,

I do agree it shouldn't be the only activity a distributor is working but the issue, as I pointed out, is that mlm needs string sales to bring in the money & pay commissions.

Kleeneze is closer to the original mlm idea than anyone else in the UK.
In the US Amway agents are similar to kleeneze agents in that a good percentage of them do retail a decent amount of product each month.

Most UK mlm companies turnover less than £30 per person per month & that is not the idea of the original mlm concept.
That is why Kleeneze works better than the others as the average agent is doing £800 to £1000 of retail per month. You only need 10 to 12 of these in your team to be making £1200 a month yourself if you are also retailing.
I agree there is a point in the plan where you don't need to retail as you should be spending most of your time helping your teams (or sitting on a beach or buying fast cars as Bob Webb does often - but he deserves it as he has worked very hard).

What I did see before I left Kleeneze was that the leaders who were doing well were still retailing to prove it works. Repeatedly Rob Forster, Gavin Scott & many others would show a wad of orders generated from customers in the last 30 days.

The major strength of Kleeneze is that when you show someone the business you can show them these orders, show them your certificate of income, show them the money going into the bank & the same for you new team members along with your uplines proof.

Im sure you have also come across many kleeneze distributors who only do a small amount or no retail & try to just recruit. The problem is that those they recruit duplicate this & they all make no money together & then quit.

Your story of Bob Webb is very different to ones I have heard him tell over & over. I still have them on tape & CD but I do agree he built the business up to a good level & stopped retailing.

I don't know what has gone wrong with Kleeneze but they too seem to be in decline in the UK.
We have not had a book on our estate for over 2 years & I do still see many of my old customers who are also not getting a book on a regular basis, although they would buy if they received one.

I am often shocked to find distributors who were doing very well with Kleeneze who have since quit. Why someone earning 2k plus a month would quite is shocking but many of them tell me they just couldn't sustain the turnover & group.

Don't get me wrong, I do think Kleeneze is the best MLM in the UK but they do seem to be declining/stuck with distributor numbers.

G

 

[sandfire]

Hi Gibby,

I was directly sponsored by Bob back in 1995 and so I do know the history
of his development in his early years in Kleeneze. I got it from the man,
himself.

I got suckered into retailing by listening to a number of members of Bobs
group - crossline to me, who were preaching the concept of doing at least
£1000 a month retail and preaching teaching downlines to do the same.

I also met another crossline distributorship who were doing £4,000 a month
retail and recommended it highly. As I said earlier, I earned very little for
the hours I put in and I had no time to sponsor. I felt that I had been
given a bum-steer and I still feel that way.

I agree with you that the origins of Network Marketing were product sales
based, but things evolve and we must adapt to survive.

I got out of Kleeneze because of the returns I was getting. I remember
being at a company showcase in Kenilworth and overhearing two of
the top distributors talking about the rubbish products. "But hey ... people
buy them and I'm earning big money, so no problem - crazy isn't it?"

I blamed Kleeneze, and started looking for a better opportunity which is
what many people do. For a while I grass-hoppered from company to
company, but I fared no better in any of them.

Eventually I came to the conclusion that the problem was me and the fact
was that I couldn't market and promote. If my life depends on my
marketing and promoting skills, I might as well not get up in the morning.

I tried buying leads from several different companies but they were an
additional expense that I really didn't think was very duplicatable, so I
eventually came across the company I am now with.

They supply lists of mlm leads which are in fact, the product, effectively
killing two birds with one stone. The only marketing and promotion I do,
is done passively.

I get the impression that Kleeneze is passing from one owner to another
and this is undermining confidence, but this may just be hearsay. I hope it
survives because it has helped a lot of people for very many years and
will do so if allowed to for many years to come.

As I've said in another post, I don't think it is dying in the UK. I think
many people who would have considered MLM, now have the options of
Affiliate Marketing and Internet Marketing as well.

Cheers,

 

[Beachcomber]

As I mentioned previously, I think the addittion of online ordering has swept the carpet out from under the feet of many Kleeeeeneeeezeeee (how many 'e's does a company need!) retailers.

 

[gibby]

Hi Sandfire,

Trying to do too much retail does burn alot of ppl out. There were several agents in the NE doing 4k plus of retail a month & seemed to stick at it for years I was involved.

Retailing used to give me an hourly rate of £20+ per hour but you do have to be very strict with your time and avoid knocking on doors. We did managed to teach this to our group but if agents spend to long talking to customers or knocking on doors the hourly rate went right down. Why they didn't teach this across the network I could never understand but then again I knew many agents who presented books to start with & saved themselves 3 or 4 months of blanket dropping. Not everyone has the ability to do this though.

One of the big reasons I stopped doing Kleeneze was the 4pm to 8pm you had to work most nights. I did a little delivering products but most of that time was spent on the phone, following up leads, signing new ppl in & training the group.
I liked doing it but when you have a young family that time bracket is very important & I felt so guilt about being on the phone very night.

Another reasons was that you could really work hard for promising new distributors to have them quit a few years for silly reasons.
I agree Kleenze did lose something when the owners went bust & the new owners really screwed parts of it up, especially for the European side of things.

Luckily we had started another business & that went crazy for us just as Kleeneze hit all the problems & I managed to use many of the skills I have acquired from mlm over the years to make it work well.

One of the things that put me off staying with Kleeneze was the amount of poaching going on. A certain top distributor group had a habit of approaching people in other teams to pull them across to their teams. Kleeneze Knew this was going on but did nothing to stop it & it did lose them a few distributors. There were other dirty tricks going on that put off new distributors if you were not in that team.
Really there is no need for this & short term it made some folks look like stars but long term alot of us lost all respect for Kleeneze.

Glad to hear things are going well. I have been told many times you can make a lot of money supporting mlm distributors rather than being one.

G

 

[sandfire]

Retailing used to give me an hourly rate of £20+ per hour but you do have to be very strict with your time and avoid knocking on doors.

Wow! £20+ per hour. You must have had it superbly organised and down to a fine art.

Why they didn't teach this across the network I could never understand

Actually, in my view that's a very good point which actually
highlights a weakness in the MLM system. The training is wide
open to abuse, misdirection and being hijacked by distributors
who really don't know what they are talking about. Just before
I gave up Kleeneze, I attended a meeting where ever greater
personal retailing was being promoted. Afterwards, I approached
Bob about my concerns and he brushed it off with, "Some will do
it for a while and during that time it means extra volume." But
Bobs attitude was always easy come easy go. I think he breathes
the SWSWSW code. I am not knocking him, because he is a darned
sight more successful than me However, it left me feeling
reluctant to recommend these meetings to my team.

...but then again I knew many agents who presented books to start with & saved themselves 3 or 4 months of blanket dropping. Not everyone has the ability to do this though.

I was okay with presenting, but almost all of the few
distributors I sponsored were very uncomfortable with doing the
same. Bob Hawkes was very emphatic about keeping everything
duplicatable. If success is an indicator of being right or
wrong, then John is evidently right about that.

One of the big reasons I stopped doing Kleeneze was the 4pm to 8pm you had to work most nights. I did a little delivering products but most of that time was spent on the phone, following up leads, signing new ppl in & training the group.
I liked doing it but when you have a young family that time bracket is very important & I felt so guilt about being on the phone very night.

I was very fortunate that my children were off my hands, so I
can only imagine what a challenge you had. Can't have been
easy, for sure.

Another reasons was that you could really work hard for promising new distributors to have them quit a few years for silly reasons.

That's another very good point. I understand that some firm in
the USA conducted a survey amongst the top 20% of MLM
distributors and one of the questions was, "Where do you think
you waste most of your time in MLM" or something very similar.
Apparently the vast majority answered, "Spending time with the
wrong people."

The problem is identifying the right people before you have
spent too much time with them. You wouldn't know anyone who has
that one worked out, would you? I think they could charge the
earth for the answer

Luckily we had started another business & that went crazy for us just as Kleeneze hit all the problems & I managed to use many of the skills I have acquired from mlm over the years to make it work well.

Good job and good timing, Gibby. It's also great to hear that
your skills developed in MLM are still being of benefit, so it
hasn't been a total waste of time. Long may it last.

One of the things that put me off staying with Kleeneze was the amount of poaching going on. A certain top distributor group had a habit of approaching people in other teams to pull them across to their teams. Kleeneze Knew this was going on but did nothing to stop it & it did lose them a few distributors. There were other dirty tricks going on that put off new distributors if you were not in that team.
Really there is no need for this & short term it made some folks look like stars but long term alot of us lost all respect for Kleeneze.

These bad practices must have started after I left, or may be I
was too knackered to notice, LOL. It's this sort of skulduggery
that gives the company a bad name. It also has the habit of
making people feel that the entire industry is tarred with the
same brush. I think Brasso mentioned that people were flogging
books, and tapes and were making more money out of it than from
sales of company products. That sounds just like Amway, to me.
I agree with you completely. There is no need. I remember the
subject being discussed at one Kleeneze meeting and most
distibutors were very against it - rightly so in my book.

Glad to hear things are going well. I have been told many times you can make a lot of money supporting mlm distributors rather than being one.

Thanks Gibby. I'm hoping being being a distributor as well as
supporting distributors is even better. I look forward to
reading more of you posts. They are well balanced.

Cheers,

 

[sandfire]

As I mentioned previously, I think the addittion of online ordering has swept the carpet out from under the feet of many Kleeeeeneeeezeeee (how many 'e's does a company need!) retailers.

I agree, and I remember talking to the local Bettware Co-ordinator who
expressed the same fears.

 

[SSoge]

Usually in a recession MLM firms get a big increase of new distributors, from people needing to earn an extra income or replacinging an income.

Im wondering why this hasn't happened with this recession as things seem to be going backwards for many MLM firms.

As an example, just in the last few months Euphony has gone bust & recently Eco/Bio Flow has announced its dropping the mlm side of the business.

I used to get approached 2 or 3 times a week for new mlm opportunities & this has totally stoppped. Even the Kleeneze & Betterware catalogues have dissappeared in our areas.

Could it be mlm has had its day in the UK?


G

good point, I have never joined an mlm opportunity until most recently, and people genuinely avoid it like the plague - very worrying.

 

[Grencolur]

Why someone would join an MLM that requires selling a product that on most occasions is too dear or is a product that you have to encourage others to use so that there is some form of distribution is beyond me. You need a massive downline for a start, need to be thick skinned as not everyone is going to be kind to you and a lot of patience. If you are interested in making money on line without all the hassles of the above send an email to me at [email protected] and I will send you some info of an online program that is legitamite and is attracting some 170+ people per day.

Cheers
Tony

 

[gibby]

good point, I have never joined an mlm opportunity until most recently, and people genuinely avoid it like the plague - very worrying.

not sure if that is quite true, possibly 10 years ago in the UK this was true but mlm does seem much more accepted these days.
15 - 10 years ago the big objection was often "its not a pyramid is it?"
over the last 5 its been "its not selling is it?" or " your not one of those scientoligist cult ppl are you?

I think ppl in the UK are naturally becoming more open to different ways of making a living, especially over the last few years.
Previously it was mainly those who were self employed who would show an interest.

G

 

[sandfire]

You need a massive downline .

Cheers
Tony

That is the whole point of success in NETWORK marketing. The people who get
this understand what it is all about. The rest of the people don't. Simple, tschh!

 

[gibby]

yeah - but having a massive team all not moving product = failure

network marketing is about moving product through a team

if you can't move product how on earth are you going to teach your team to do it.
why would anyone join if they didnt think the product wont move?

You don't need a massive downline in a good mlm.

Look at Amway (failing for years in the UK)
when things were good the average turnover per agent was £40 a month
how many agents do you need at 5% to make just £1k a month

they all teach 1 , 5, 25 125 etc
so in Amway with agents just buying for themselves you need
500 agents buying £40 = 20k of tunover a month = £1000 income for you
This does not work as most of those agents buying £40 worth do not make a profit, they lose money with the other expenses every month.

If the dont make money they quit & no one gets anywhere near 500 ACTIVE agents in the team.

Look at a retailing mlm such as kleeneze or others
K agents retail about £1000 per month each.
As its retail based (moving product) you & 10 agents gives an income of about £1000 to £1200.

The idea of any business is to move a product or service. No turnover = no income or profit & this is one of the big reasons most mlm firms fail

G

 

[sandfire]

yeah - but having a massive team all not moving product = failure

network marketing is about moving product through a team

if you can't move product how on earth are you going to teach your team to do it.
why would anyone join if they didnt think the product wont move?

You don't need a massive downline in a good mlm.

Look at Amway (failing for years in the UK)
when things were good the average turnover per agent was £40 a month
how many agents do you need at 5% to make just £1k a month

they all teach 1 , 5, 25 125 etc
so in Amway with agents just buying for themselves you need
500 agents buying £40 = 20k of tunover a month = £1000 income for you
This does not work as most of those agents buying £40 worth do not make a profit, they lose money with the other expenses every month.

If the dont make money they quit & no one gets anywhere near 500 ACTIVE agents in the team.

Look at a retailing mlm such as kleeneze or others
K agents retail about £1000 per month each.
As its retail based (moving product) you & 10 agents gives an income of about £1000 to £1200.

The idea of any business is to move a product or service. No turnover = no income or profit & this is one of the big reasons most mlm firms fail

G

Gibby,

If I only have to buy product for my own use to qualify for commissions,
product is moving from the company to me, is it not? In this case,
although I am a member of the network, I am also a customer.

Therefore there is no need to do any retailing.

If I have 3 teams each with say... 500 members who each buy £40 worth
of product a month, for their own personal use, then product is moving
from the company to the end user.

That means that 1500 members each purchasing £40 of product for their
own use is £60,000 of product per month is being moved, without any
retailing.

If I then earn 5%, my income is a creditable £3,000 a month.

Amway and Kleeneze are both very good companies, but they use the
original plan which involves retailing. However, I guarantee you that
almost none of the top 20% of all the network members in those two
companies do any personal retailing.

I am involved in an MLM that has been growing successfully now since
2001 and I do not engage in any personal retailing and neither do any
of my team.

I hope this makes sense,

Gordon

 

[sandfire]

Further to my last post, the expenses that people suffer from is normally
to do with prospecting.

The vast majority of people who fail in MLM, as far as I can see, do so
because they are clueless about Marketing and Promoting which is
essential to successful prospecting and lead generation.

If you actually think about it, although all of us are bombarded by adverts
and promotions, all marketing a product or service, most of us wouldn't
know how to write a headline that pulls let alone a full advert.

So newbies listen to their upline, who in turn are probably just about as
clueless. The outcome, big expenditure and no results.

I went through all this. I am the first to admit that I am useless at
marketing and promotion, so I don't do it myself. I use a professional
company who supplies me with the leads and I only pay for what I order.

Does that make sense?

Gordon

 

[gibby]

different mlms have expenses.
Most of the firms I have seen have a weekly to monthly meeting & if its someone new to business or mlm they will need these.
There are also training meetings, books, cds, voicemail, websites etc.

Just like any other business there will be some expenses & sadly the averge mlm agent in the UK does not make a profit after these expenses.

Last time I saw the DSA figures the average turnover of a mlm agent in the UK was £20 to £40 per month (OK many firms do more)
but if your buying into a club/discount system & buying £40 worth & your expenses are around the same its trading at a loss.

sadly most mlmers I have come across do this month after month.
Many of them like the idea that they "own a business" or like the meetings & the new friends. The collect the books & tapes, even spend thousands on high priced seminars but they just don't seem to move product & if they do recruit those ppl duplicate what they do.

Most businesses of any type don't succeed but there seems to be ahigher amount of "mlm junkies" who are just in it for the badge.

g