Marketing does work, you are doing it wrong.

[AllUpHere]

I think being able to judge people and their advice is a basic requirement for being successful. Not everyone is dishonest and out for themselves. If you have this attitude then life and business become very difficult.

Life and business are fine, but thanks for your concern.

As someone once said, if you can tell the difference between good advice and bad advice, you don't need the advice.

Steve

I think marketing advice can be a little easier to judge than most. Marketing generally is just common sense mixed in with a bit of technical knowledge. If someone is trying to persuade you that what they do is some kind of dark art that is difficult to understand, they aren't marketing experts.

Any marketing advice that makes sense, and seems like a good idea from a common sense point of view is probably good advice. If it seems over complicated, it's probably nonsense.

No one ever got famous predicting things will stay more or less the same in the future. That's why we have things like "Native Advertising" ans "Customer Centric Marketing".

Agreed. The thing is, most of the silly terms you come across are simply describing techniques and ideas we have all been using for years, it's just that someone has tried to make a name for themselves by giving it a fancy new name.

 

[integrity Rules]

There's been such good advice in the posts in this thread that I thought I would try and summarise my understanding.
Please note this is my idiosyncratic take; doubtless others will understand things differently dependent on their level of existing marketing sophistication.

Edited and subtitled
If what you are doing isn't working , go back to the drawing board . Get clear on your USP.
( Doing the same again and expecting different results is the very definition of insanity )

"If your marketing or promotional activity hasn't had the desired results, take a couple of steps back, and think about the following.

• What advantage does my business have over the competition? If you can't think of an advantage, find one. Once you know what your advantage is, you can start to work on a marketing strategy that WILL work."

How you begin something will have a disproportionate impact on how it all turns out
Deming says that the first 15% of a process will determine 85% of its success/ failure depending on how well thought out (or not ) it has been; and depending on the quality of execution.
"90% of marketing is in the planning. The mistake people make is to jump straight to the last 10%, and expect it to work."

Misunderstanding the arena of marketing; mistaking the tail of the cat for the cat itself

.
"...huge majority of businesses think the promotional activity is the marketing, when actually, it's the little bit you do at the end of marketing, after you have done all the more important stuff."

You can't hire people to do your business thinking for you

" Most people see SEO's, graphic designers, web designers, and copywriters as 'marketing professionals' so take their advice when it comes to marketing. What they don't understand is that by the time you even start speaking to these people you need to have already worked out the vast majority of your marketing decisions. The professionals mentioned above need you to have already made the really important decisions, and as a rule won't have the knowledge or skills required to help you.
When it comes to marketing, the bit that really matters is what you do before you start getting these people involved"

SEO's, graphic designers, web designers, and copywriters are good for gaining tactical advantage from the strategy you have set up
All this points to the fact that the business owner better have some understanding of marketing basics at the outset.
But see comments re SEO below

IMO, a decent SEO is one of very few of the marketing professionals mentioned, that can actually be a great help to a business owner seeking strategic help. Decent SEO's have an understanding of competition, advantages, target markets, ROI, and most of the things needed to build a decent marketing strategy. The advice of a decent SEO, on the back of an hour or 2 with a decent marketing strategist would be hard to beat for many small business owners.

"The reason SEO is so powerful is that (if done well) it gets the business owner to think about a lot of things they would normally forget about, when using other forms of advertising. Even the very act of performing initial competitor analysis and thinking about the likely cost per client gained, puts businesses leaps and bounds in front of businesses who do no strategic marketing work at all.

A decent SEO can be just as valuable at the marketing planning stage, as they are at any other time. This does, however, rely on the fact that you have done some marketing and business planning first."

savvy businesses invest in SEO

... 75-80% of my budget personally does go on SEO related promotions.

Test advertising every which way

….many business owners think …. that every advert should make a profit and don't really understand that it is a testing process in order to get every little piece of the ad working as good as it should.
There is so much to get right (or wrong) - from the medium used, the target market, the ad size, the ad copy, image or no image, the offer itself, the sales letter, the follow up campaign, the up sells/cross sells, the delivery of offer - everything.
A lot of the time .. there hasn't been enough thought put in to the overall system except for just chucking a few quid on an ad in the local paper and hoping for the best.
The spray and pray method doesn't work"

Marketing isn't a dark art ! Beware mumbo jumbo & overcomplicated concepts

"... marketing advice can be a little easier to judge than most. Marketing generally is just common sense mixed in with a bit of technical knowledge. If someone is trying to persuade you that what they do is some kind of dark art that is difficult to understand, they aren't marketing experts.
Any marketing advice that makes sense, and seems like a good idea from a common sense point of view is probably good advice. If it seems over complicated, it's probably nonsense."

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Any marketing advice that makes sense, and seems like a good idea from a common sense point of view is probably good advice.

There's a "web conversion guru" who's been banging on about how you should use prices ending in 9. According to him, it works because it makes the price look smaller.

Seems logical.

However, I've tested price points repeatedly. While results have varied (unsurprisingly), prices ending in 9 have performed poorly – usually very poorly – far more often than they should.

How poorly? I've seen response drop by 1/3.

Just one example of "common sense" being bad advice.

Steve

 

[integrity Rules]

…
I've tested price points repeatedly. While results have varied (unsurprisingly), prices ending in 9 have performed poorly – usually very poorly – far more often than they should.
How poorly? I've seen response drop by 1/3.
Just one example of "common sense" being bad advice.

Steve

Interesting .
The moral I suppose is:
Every case is different
Test everything you can.

From Colin fox s' thread … "and don't really understand that it is a testing process in order to get every little piece of the ad working as good as it should.
There is so much to get right (or wrong) - from the medium used, the target market, the ad size, the ad copy, image or no image, the offer itself, the sales letter, the follow up campaign, the up sells/cross sells, the delivery of offer - everything."

 

[AllUpHere]

There's a "web conversion guru" who's been banging on about how you should use prices ending in 9. According to him, it works because it makes the price look smaller.

Seems logical.

However, I've tested price points repeatedly. While results have varied (unsurprisingly), prices ending in 9 have performed poorly – usually very poorly – far more often than they should.

How poorly? I've seen response drop by 1/3.

Just one example of "common sense" being bad advice.

Steve

2 Points really.

First, don't take too much notice of a web conversion 'Guru', and second, concepts such as the one described (all prices ending in 9) definitely come under the 'over complicated messing about' category that I would never recommend business owners waste their time with (when they should be concentrating on marketing strategy). Business owners can easily have these kinds of theories tested, so don't need to rely solely on the common sense rule for those.

 

[Brand Majesty]

In regards to comments about SEO, from what I've seen there's been a gradual shift from trying to reach the broadest audience, towards something more specific or local.

Having the keyword "Plumbing Expert" isn't going to do much, but "Plumbing Expert in New Cross" might get you Somewhere. I think the jargon word is "long tailed"

 

[fisicx]

First, don't take too much notice of a web conversion 'Guru'.

In any case, it's 7 not 9 that peforms better. Or 5. Or rounding off.

Or perhaps it's all a load of bollox: http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/5067/marketing/the_truth_about_the_fallacy_of_7.html

Wikipedia however sits firmly on the fence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pricing

So ignore the gurus. They are probably just gurus in their own heads.

 

[Brand Majesty]

On a very practical level, having a product range all end in 5's work well for face to face sales as it limits the variety of change and coinage you need-ie no coppers.

That's what I learned from stall work anyway

 

[Twoscoops]

All 5s and 9s in my shop. Has always seemed to work for face to face sales. Great thread by the way, I'm picking up loads of useful stuff.

 

[AllUpHere]

On a very practical level, having a product range all end in 5's work well for face to face sales as it limits the variety of change and coinage you need-ie no coppers.

That's what I learned from stall work anyway

We have done a few car boot sales to thin out the junk I accumulate in the garage over the years. I just round everything to the nearest pound to save messing about. Anyone who wants to haggle anything down priced at a quid can think again.

 

[AllUpHere]

Great thread by the way, I'm picking up loads of useful stuff.

Personally I think the OP deserves all the credit for that. Feel free to thank all of his posts.

 

[BOS]

re car boot sales; at one recently where buyer picked up some sort of car part, english not his first language and said £10, the seller said £20, the buyer just said "why?". sale concluded at £10.

 

[Matt1959]

re car boot sales; at one recently where buyer picked up some sort of car part, english not his first language and said £10, the seller said £20, the buyer just said "why?". sale concluded at £10.

lol these guys are classic. I was clearing out stuff from my uncles garage. An electric chainsaw I asked £25. Sterotypical broken english car booter comes along and offers me £15 which I refuse. The he ups it to £20 which I refuse and he cant understand why and starts jabbering on. He comes back 30 mins later and offers £25 and I tell him I'm not selling it, stick it back in the van and sold it to someone else for £20 at the end. I HATE CAR BOOT SALES AND THE PEOPLE THAT BUY FROM THEM

 

[amir_apricot]

The original post is spot on. I've worked in marketing related roles for a decade and the concept that 'marketing doesnt work' is incredibly inaccurate and comes from misunderstandings of what marketing is and how its deployed as well as from bad experiences.

Its like saying that exercise doesnt work. Of course it does. It just is a case of matching the exercise to the person and ensuring that they are doing it correcting and crucially, sustainably.

Marketing is the same. It will work for any business. There just needs to be some thought into what the best marketing to do for that particular company is, some testing (low to no cost), measuring results and then scaling up when you figure out what is working.

I've first hand experience of making it work with companies of all sizes across many verticals - its a process and one that people get wrong often because they dont really understand what is needed to make a successful campaign.

 

[AllUpHere]

Thanks Amir. Welcome to UKBF.

 

[amir_apricot]

No worries - glad to be here!

 

[CharlineCaisse]

"His majesty - The Chance"

Sometimes that's the most important factor.

 

[Ben_Doyle]

The problem is that most, nearly all business owners in fact, are not marketers.

A good marketing plan comes off the back of good market research which frankly, very few business owners do.

• Who is your perfect customer?
• Where does he 'hang out'?
• What are his needs, wants, desires, pains, frustrations etc?
• How does your product or service address those needs, wants, desires, pains, frustrations etc?

Once you can answer these questions you can then craft an intelligent marketing campaign rather than slap dashing it. You can TARGET people who are ACTIVELY LOOKING for your product or service and create marketing messages that ENGAGE with those people and provide value to them.

Testing is also a MASSIVE part of marketing and something else that very few people do and complain that it doesn't work.

We constantly test campaigns against each other for our clients from the colour of envelopes we use in direct mail to the headlines we use on PPC ads.

One small seemingly insignificant change can have drastic effects.

Myself, as a marketer knew how I was going to market my business before I even set it up. But to most people, marketing is an after thought. It should be the first.

Ben

 

[johnzakaria]

Marketing online still works, but it needs one to understand it correctly and how does it work.

 

[Louis Porter]

90% of marketing is in the planning. The mistake people make is to jump straight to the last 10%, and expect it to work.

I do completely agree with this. Nobody can understand the depth of preparation of a successful Marketing campaign, unless they've been involved in one. Most of our clients expect instant results, but they don't realise that it takes time to plan and set up a successful marketing campaign.

They did no market reaserach at all, they just blindly followed the suggestions of the SEO company (who are well known for ripping people off).

I do agree that there a too many black-hat and unethical SEO companies (and individual consultants) out there that offer magical SEO to get them ranking, but never say how or for what keywords. Most clients don't understand that ranking for keywords isn't helpful unless they have search volume.

 

[AllUpHere]

I do completely agree with this. Nobody can understand the depth of preparation of a successful Marketing campaign, unless they've been involved in one. Most of our clients expect instant results, but they don't realise that it takes time to plan and set up a successful marketing campaign.

Hi Louis, welcome to the forum.

If I'm honest, I think the preparation for a 'campaign' is part of the last 10%. I tend to find those who think of marketing as a series of 'campaigns' are the ones who don't really get it. Anything to do with a marketing campaign is simply promotional marketing activity. The 90% is all the work that's done before the campaigns. The stuff done to tailor the business to meet the needs of the most profitable target market (including finding out which part of the market that is).

 

[Louis Porter]

Hi Louis, welcome to the forum.

If I'm honest, I think the preparation for a 'campaign' is part of the last 10%. I tend to find those who think of marketing as a series of 'campaigns' are the ones who don't really get it. Anything to do with a marketing campaign is simply promotional marketing activity. The 90% is all the work that's done before the campaigns. The stuff done to tailor the business to meet the needs of the most profitable target market (including finding out which part of the market that is).

Hi AllUpHere,

Thank you for the welcome.

I completely agree, marketing is a completely unified process to the entire business and everything it does. However, I was referring specifically to marketing campaigns, as in campaigns that market specific products and services (not the business' broader marketing). A lot of our clients come to us and request that we only market a specific product, service or event. Now this isn't ideal, and we try to tell them that it's best to develop a marketing strategy for a business as a whole, once their mind is made up it's difficult to change it.

But in both cases, sufficient research should be executed to gain insight into your market. I personally think it's better to over prepare than under prepare, but it's a mistake that I've seen happen all too often.

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[AllUpHere]

Hi AllUpHere,

Thank you for the welcome.

I completely agree, marketing is a completely unified process to the entire business and everything it does. However, I was referring specifically to marketing campaigns, as in campaigns that market specific products and services (not the business' broader marketing). A lot of our clients come to us and request that we only market a specific product, service or event. Now this isn't ideal, and we try to tell them that it's best to develop a marketing strategy for a business as a whole, once their mind is made up it's difficult to change it.

But in both cases, sufficient research should be executed to gain insight into your market. I personally think it's better to over prepare than under prepare, but it's a mistake that I've seen happen all too often.

Wouldn't you agree?

Hi Louis.

Yes, I completely agree.

I notice you work for an agency. Do you have any tips for keeping the 'creative types' focused on providing a solution that makes money for the client, rather than simply showing off what they can do from a design perspective? This forum is populated mainly by small and micro businesses, who have little need for 'brand awareness' or even a brand for that matter. These sorts of businesses need a very different service to larger corporate clients. Is this something you consider and cater for in your business?

 

[SamJones]

If your marketing or promotional activity hasn't had the desired results, take a couple of steps back, and think about the following.

What advantage does my business have over the competition? If you can't think of an advantage, find one. Once you know what your advantage is, you can start to work on a marketing strategy that WILL work.

90% of marketing is in the planning. The mistake people make is to jump straight to the last 10%, and expect it to work.

Great thread! Just so I am understanding correctly (but over simplifying), a generic approach would be:

Define core advantage -----> Plan marketing strategy on this ------> Implement tools aligned to this

If so, any good reads/tips/templates for the 2nd stage (marketing strategy)?

Sam

 

[AllUpHere]

Great thread! Just so I am understanding correctly (but over simplifying), a generic approach would be:

Define core advantage -----> Plan marketing strategy on this ------> Implement tools aligned to this

If so, any good reads/tips/templates for the 2nd stage (marketing strategy)?

Sam

Hi Sam.

Thanks, this thread does seem to be helping a few people to understand the basics of marketing.

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that the 2nd stage would be promotional marketing, where as I would say that the second stage would probably be tailoring your business to best benefit from the advantage in step one. Only after you have done that, are you ready to promote your services.

For example, in your business the promotional part is easy. It's not going to take too much effort to get you clients, because it's a business type that is very easy to promote. However, it's the stages before the promotional work that make it easy, not the promo work itself.

I hope the above makes sense. In your business, it's the target market selection that is most important. Once you know who your target market are, you can tailor your offering to them, and also work out the best way to communicate that offering to them. As you have probably already worked out, your target market isn't actually 20 somethings.

 

[SamJones]

Hi Sam.

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that the 2nd stage would be promotional marketing, where as I would say that the second stage would probably be tailoring your business to best benefit from the advantage in step one. Only after you have done that, are you ready to promote your services.

For example, in your business the promotional part is easy. It's not going to take too much effort to get you clients, because it's a business type that is very easy to promote. However, it's the stages before the promotional work that make it easy, not the promo work itself.

I hope the above makes sense. In your business, it's the target market selection that is most important. Once you know who your target market are, you can tailor your offering to them, and also work out the best way to communicate that offering to them. As you have probably already worked out, your target market isn't actually 20 somethings.

No I understood the second stage as that. The thirds stage would be promotional. Thanks for the clarification - appreciate it!

"As you have probably already worked out, your target market isn't actually 20 somethings" Interesting - I have worked out that maybe it needs more defining within that area.

 

[AllUpHere]

No I understood the second stage as that. The thirds stage would be promotional. Thanks for the clarification - appreciate it!

"As you have probably already worked out, your target market isn't actually 20 somethings" Interesting - I have worked out that maybe it needs more defining within that area.

It's not that you need to define it better, it's that the 20 somethings are your end user, but not necessarily the decision maker that your promotional marketing needs to be targeted at. If I was acting on your behalf I would be looking to tailor what you are doing to best meet the needs of certain influencers and decision makers, rather than assuming that because you have a service for 20 somethings, that they are your target client. Equally, yours is the type of business that works best by working towards alliances with other businesses, rather than simply trying to promote your services in isolation.

 

[Silky]

I do completely agree with this. Nobody can understand the depth of preparation of a successful Marketing campaign, unless they've been involved in one. Most of our clients expect instant results, but they don't realise that it takes time to plan and set up a successful marketing campaign.

I do agree that there a too many black-hat and unethical SEO companies (and individual consultants) out there that offer magical SEO to get them ranking, but never say how or for what keywords. Most clients don't understand that ranking for keywords isn't helpful unless they have search volume.

The depth of a campaign? Not all successful businesses start with this, and indeed far too many spend time navel gazing....

First of all you don't need to be a marketing professional to actually practise pure marketing. The butty shop that has some great specials, good prices, delights their customers and goes the extra mile ? They're fabulous marketeers. Probably no huge campaigns, more than likely no SEO (not all businesses are online!!) and defintely no free key rings. Their success? They understand their customer and watch to see what is popular and what is not. They make more of what is, less of what is not. They see what other nearby shops are offering and tailor their product so it's better / cheaper or simply more appealing. They do what they can to get customers in their doors.

Marketing professionals*(an insider view, having worked at director level for some large consumer brands) will often talk it up and make it sound like a black art. It's not . Marketing (not advertising) is about understanding your customer, providing them with a product they'll want, a product that is better than the competition or indeed unique, and more to the point, a product which will make you money. Marketing is:
* Product development - developing a product that fulfills a customer need
* Distribution - making sure you have a route to market so you can reach your customer (whether online, on the high street, via Fiverr or by schmoozing large retail buyers)
*Pricing your product so it sells - knowing what price does work, and what doesn't. Making sure your price is attractive to customers but makes you money
* Telling your customer about your product (this is the advertising bit commonly mistaken as Marketing). Advertising, word of mouth, bill boards, social media....


The Marketing of any business depends on that business, their customers and indeed their aims. This thread keeps veering into the territory of promotional gifts (??!) and SEO, the fomer is pretty irrelevant in most cases, the latter is also only one form of distribution and in many cases still not necessary.

In short:
Know your customer and what they like
Know where to find them
Know how much they'll spend
Know how to get them to spend it with you.

 

[Shirlyn]

Hi,

Marketing ways are different for different businesses, One type of marketing campaign can not be used for other projects.

 

[capitalvirtual]

Is email marketing really effective? how many people have looked at an email and then purchased a product directly from that email?

 

[Silky]

Is email marketing really effective? how many people have looked at an email and then purchased a product directly from that email?

That depends on whether it's a totally cold call, a cold call but highly targeted, or an email to your own database of interested customers. A good enough offer or some interesting news and the last can work very well, I'd avoid the first as you're likely to end up in the spam bin.

As with the rest of the conversation, it depends again on your product.

 

[thinkcoreseo]

totally agree...

"Benjamin Franklin — 'If you fail to plan, you are planning to fail!"

 

[StevePoster]

The truth is, almost any type of promotional activity / advertising will work, but you need to do it right.

But it won't work for every business.

Just like every website needs different optimization process to perform well in the web.

 

[ericuws]

This thread was helpful thank you!

 

[andrewcakebox]

I agree 100%. If you are placing a print ad or any kind of campaign designed to bring in revenue, its not just about how nice the ad looks, it's all in the AD COPY. There are specific words that copywriters use that make all the difference. If you're hiring a graphic designer that hasn't a clue about copy or doesn't work with a copywriter then it's all down to chance.

As you rightly said, you have to know what your hook is and your advantage over the competition and show how your product is the medicine for the readers "pain". Only then can you achieve better results in your marketing campaigns.

 

[Carepoint Media]

I totally agree with this... "The truth is, almost any type of promotional activity / advertising will work, but you need to do it right." Carepoint Media specialises in advertising in GP surgeries and this works perfectly for health care related organisations, charities, gyms, health food producers etc. We have seen companies who sell office equipment comment that advertising in GP surgeries does not work. For such companies we may indeed not be the right place to advertise, but this does not mean that the yoga school on the corner won't see an increase in sales after advertising with us.
I am happy to see more attention being placed on the proper matching of business type and advertising media used as well as the advertising campaign itself.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I agree 100%. If you are placing a print ad or any kind of campaign designed to bring in revenue, its not just about how nice the ad looks, it's all in the AD COPY. There are specific words that copywriters use that make all the difference. If you're hiring a graphic designer that hasn't a clue about copy or doesn't work with a copywriter then it's all down to chance.

This is a particularly important point. In the vast majority of cases the design doesn't do the selling, the copy does. There are exemptions, for example with highly aesthetic products like jewellery, but even those need some copy to explain what the product is and what it's made of to increase the perceived value and improve the response rate.

The main factors which will influence whether someone buys something are:

1). What the product is and how it works
2). What the benefits are/why they should use it
3). Why it's better than competitors' offerings
4). The general feeling and emotion they have towards the product and the concept of owning it

Influencing these is all achieved with the copy. What you SAY to the reader. Investing heavily in good design without paying as much (if not more) attention to the copy is a recipe for a failed campaign. There have been situations where well-designed flyers have been out-performed by single-sheet sales letters, even though the letters were just pages of blandly formatted text with no graphics included.

A good way to think of it is the concept of reading a good fiction book. Each page might just be a wall of text and nothing else, but the words help the reader to imagine incredibly emotional, creative and powerful scenes. It's about the thoughts and feelings you create inside the person's mind, and words do that far more than the artistry around it.

 

[amac]

Is email marketing really effective? how many people have looked at an email and then purchased a product directly from that email?

It's very effective but as others have said, you need to measure everything and double down on what works for you. So, email marketing per se might not be the best way to market your business but look at your analytics/logs, see what works then do that.

 

[Karen Bennett]

A lot of people that suggest that marketing channels don't work for them simply do not invest the time nurturing the communication tool. I don't know how many times someone told me they set up a Facebook, twitter or Linkedin account and it didn't work for them. When I question what kind of things they were doing to utilise the medium - they said nothing?? 'You are doing it wrong' Well said !!

 

[The Byre]

I tend to find those who think of marketing as a series of 'campaigns' are the ones who don't really get it. Anything to do with a marketing campaign is simply promotional marketing activity. The 90% is all the work that's done before the campaigns. The stuff done to tailor the business to meet the needs of the most profitable target market (including finding out which part of the market that is).

Could we please have those words tattooed onto the inside of the eyelids of those involved in marketing everywhere!