Marketing does work, you are doing it wrong.

[AllUpHere]

There seem to be an awful lot of people both on here and in 'the real world', who try to tell us that certain types of 'marketing' don't work, because they have tried it and it failed. What they don't seem to realise is that it failed because they did it wrong, not because the medium does not work.

The truth is, almost any type of promotional activity / advertising will work, but you need to do it right.

I am often told how PPC campaigns don't work, when the client has simply hashed together a quick campaign and sent the traffic to a landing page not optimised to convert the visitors.

I am often told how print advertising doesn't work, when the client has simply paid a graphic designer to design the advert (or worse still, an in-house designer), with no thought of a specific strategy. A graphic designer can only do so much. They can't design an advert that will make you money, if you aren't basing that advert on sound marketing principles.

If your marketing or promotional activity hasn't had the desired results, take a couple of steps back, and think about the following.

What advantage does my business have over the competition? If you can't think of an advantage, find one. Once you know what your advantage is, you can start to work on a marketing strategy that WILL work.

90% of marketing is in the planning. The mistake people make is to jump straight to the last 10%, and expect it to work.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

The truth is, almost any type of promotional activity / advertising will work, but you need to do it right.

But it won't work for every business.

Steve

 

[AllUpHere]

But it won't work for every business.

Steve

Agreed. However, if I had stated that any method (that is suitable for your business type) will work, it then opens up another question. That question being, how do I know which promotional techniques are right for my business.

 

[yottacom]

There seem to be an awful lot of people both on here and in 'the real world', who try to tell us that certain types of 'marketing' don't work, because they have tried it and it failed. What they don't seem to realise is that it failed because they did it wrong, not because the medium does not work.

The truth is, almost any type of promotional activity / advertising will work, but you need to do it right.

I am often told how PPC campaigns don't work, when the client has simply hashed together a quick campaign and sent the traffic to a landing page not optimised to convert the visitors.

I agree.
But please allow me a little digression

Most people don't know that marketing and advertising are two different sides of the same coin.

Marketing should help us understand the client, his needs and habits... and act to satisfy those needs.

Advertising on the other part, try to create a conversation with those clients. Advertising done well is not noisy or "forced", it could be enjoyable!

During the decades advertising has become a tool to influence the masses, creating false needs.

So when people say "Marketing doesn't work", they actually mean "SHOUTING ORDERS TO STRANGERS WILL NOT HELP ME SELL MY PRODUCTS ANYMORE!!!".

Every vendor should read this book, written nearly a century ago. Most principles are still valid!

It's available on the kindle store for less than 7 pounds and it's probably downloadable from other sources!

 

[AllUpHere]

Thanks Gotta, that's a good point well made.

I'm usually the one banging on about the difference between marketing and advertising / promotional activity, but this thread was supposed to be in a slightly different direction.

I completely agree with the scientific advertising recommendation. It's still just as relevant today. I'm sure I downloaded my copy for free somewhere, so it's worth having a quick search.

 

[Gold-Star-Rob]

If you join Drayton Bird's mailing list you get it as a free pdf.

 

[AllUpHere]

If you join Drayton Bird's mailing list you get it as a free pdf.

I've never signed up to that, so there must be another free source somewhere.

If you Google scientific advertising, the first result is a pdf to download.

 

[Gold-Star-Rob]

You find that with a lot of the older advertising books, there's a pdf of breakthrough advertising floating around the internet too.

 

[businessfunding]

I agree with the point of the thread

From my work with start-ups the fundamental problem is that marketing is viewed almost entirely as promotion. And naive start-ups are far too easilly sold (for example) SEO as the most important thing.

They fling money blindly at an SEO expert for 6 months - get no result and conclude thar either SEO or marketing don't work

 

[AllUpHere]

I agree with the point of the thread

From my work with start-ups the fundamental problem is that marketing is viewed almost entirely as promotion. And naive start-ups are far too easilly sold (for example) SEO as the most important thing.

They fling money blindly at an SEO expert for 6 months - get no result and conclude thar either SEO or marketing don't work

That's a good point. Using promotional activity (be it SEO, PPC, building a website, advertising offline or whatever) before you actually work out your marketing, is the easiest and quickest way to waste money.

The biggest problem is that a huge majority of businesses think the promotional activity is the marketing, when actually, it's the little bit you do at the end of marketing, after you have done all the more important stuff.

 

[fisicx]

Got to agree with that. I've got a client at the moment who has spent thousands on SEO promoting a range of keywords but doesn't even know if these keywords are 1: what people are using in their searches and 2: match the services on offer on his website.

They did no market reaserach at all, they just blindly followed the suggestions of the SEO company (who are well known for ripping people off).

 

[AllUpHere]

They did no market reaserach at all, they just blindly followed the suggestions of the SEO company (who are well known for ripping people off).

That is exactly what causes the problem. Most people see SEO's, graphic designers, web designers, and copywriters as 'marketing professionals' so take their advice when it comes to marketing. What they don't understand is that by the time you even start speaking to these people you need to have already worked out the vast majority of your marketing decisions. The professionals mentioned above need you to have already made the really important decisions, and as a rule won't have the knowledge or skills required to help you.

When it comes to marketing, the bit that really matters is what you do before you start getting these people involved.

 

[Tin]

When it comes to marketing, the bit that really matters is what you do before you start getting these people involved.

Yes, that's a fair point but it only has merit if the person knows exactly what he/she should be doing because if they do then they will at least be someway prepped to crafting the best return from whoever they use for marketing. Lots of people don't have this advantage and clearly the guy Fisicx was talking about has fallen foul of this and by the sounds of things, the seo company has basically left the client high and dry. But then that's seo, one of the most awkward market sectors to trust.

 

[johno123]

From a promotions/advertising pint of view too many ompanies throw money at this with no thought. A good promotions company should advise on the merchandise and gifts that suit their company and crucially are relevent to their target market. Their are key products that work for 80% of advertising campaigns but with expert advice campaigns can be so successful. The devil is in the detail.

 

[AllUpHere]

From a promotions/advertising pint of view too many ompanies throw money at this with no thought. A good promotions company should advise on the merchandise and gifts that suit their company and crucially are relevent to their target market. Their are key products that work for 80% of advertising campaigns but with expert advice campaigns can be so successful. The devil is in the detail.

I disagree. The whole point of this thread is that businesses shouldn't be getting to the stage where they need to buy promotional materials, and not know exactly what they should be buying. The problems occur when they take advice on such things from the people that sell them.

 

[johno123]

I disagree. The whole point of this thread is that businesses shouldn't be getting to the stage where they need to buy promotional materials, and not know exactly what they should be buying. The problems occur when they take advice on such things from the people that sell them.

If you don't take advice from the people who sell promotional products then who should you take advice off? I think the key is choosing a good promotional gifts supplier. To dismiss any advice from a someone who has experience in the field I would suggest is a little foolish.

 

[AllUpHere]

Yes, that's a fair point but it only has merit if the person knows exactly what he/she should be doing because if they do then they will at least be someway prepped to crafting the best return from whoever they use for marketing. Lots of people don't have this advantage and clearly the guy Fisicx was talking about has fallen foul of this and by the sounds of things, the seo company has basically left the client high and dry. But then that's seo, one of the most awkward market sectors to trust.

Agreed. The whole problem really goes back to the problem that marketing is almost universally misunderstood, so when small businesses have an advert designed by a graphic designer, or use a decent designer to build them a website, they think they are doing it right. They don't even realise they have already missed out the most important chunk of the work.

The reputation SEO has got is a shame. IMO, a decent SEO is one of very few of the marketing professionals mentioned, that can actually be a great help to a business owner seeking strategic help. Decent SEO's have an understanding of competition, advantages, target markets, ROI, and most of the things needed to build a decent marketing strategy. The advice of a decent SEO, on the back of an hour or 2 with a decent marketing strategist would be hard to beat for many small business owners.

 

[AllUpHere]

If you don't take advice from the people who sell promotional products then who should you take advice off? I think the key is choosing a good promotional gifts supplier. To dismiss any advice from a someone who has experience in the field I would suggest is a little foolish.

You think the very best advice available regarding a certain product is from a salesman of a particular product?

 

[fisicx]

You think the very best advice available regarding a certain product is from a salesman of a particular product?

I recommend buying personalised plastic keyrings as they will increase sales, boost your ranking and attract women. You can get them from my plastic keyring website.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

If you don't take advice from the people who sell promotional products then who should you take advice off?

Someone whose income doesn't depend on whether or not you buy.

The newspaper tells you you need to be in the newspaper. The Yellow Pages salesman tells you you need to be in the Yellow Pages (if such a thing still exists). The SEO tells you you need SEO. The PPC guy says you need PPC...

You need to figure out who your target market is, and what you can afford to spend to get a sale. If you do that (and do it well), you'll eliminate a lot of options that don't suit your business.

Then, once you've figured out what's most likely to work, you can go after that market with an ad that tells them why they should buy from you.

The biggest problem I see with most businesses is the only "reason" to buy from them, rather than their competitors, is that they want your money. There's no advantage for the buyer, only the seller.

And that, IMO, is why so much advertising fails.

Just my 2p,

Steve

 

[FMitchell]

I work for a digital marketing agency as a development manager.

I believe You have to look at your business closely and take a step back possibly from a 3rd person point of view. And say 'what would be most effect for my business'

Look at it is who you are targeting, if it is a generation without smartphones then you wouldn't optimise in SMS and mobile apps (bit extreme but you get the idea)

The internet is not going away, in my company we optimise in getting the most out of their online resources, so businesses that use that avenue for services and E-commerce.

My advise to anyone would be Get On Google! SEO,PPC it's all about getting recognised over the competition.

Fraser

 

[BOS]

I once got speaking to a new local business next to my favourite bike shop - they were a commercial laundry. Having bought a number of machines they now wanted business. They said that they were advertising in all the local magazines etc and that they hoped that all the hotels nearby read them. I suggested that they contact the hotels direct, by phone or in person. Far too scary. Just be sure you know the right mix of marketing/sales.

 

[AllUpHere]

I once got speaking to a new local business next to my favourite bike shop - they were a commercial laundry. Having bought a number of machines they now wanted business. They said that they were advertising in all the local magazines etc and that they hoped that all the hotels nearby read them. I suggested that they contact the hotels direct, by phone or in person. Far too scary. Just be sure you know the right mix of marketing/sales.

It's not really about having the right mix of marketing and sales. It's much more about making sure that marketing influences every single decision you make.

In your example, they made marketing mistakes long before they were thinking of ways to promote their business.

Ill give you an example. If they were hoping for local hotels to supply a healthy chunk of their turnover, they should have tailored their business to best meet the needs of this target market from the start. For example, when buying the machines, they should have been thinking about which ones would be best for this work. Equally, when they hire staff and set opening times, they should consider how to optimise these decisions to meet the needs of the target market. If local hotels always want to do their washing at 6 in the morning, opening at 9 is going to make sure that whatever promotional work you do, it's going to fail.

This may seem like a rather academic argument, and to be honest we are heading towards the realms of Porters competitive strategies. However, if you want your marketing to be effective, you really need to start at the beginning.

 

[tombuckland]

Agreed. The whole problem really goes back to the problem that marketing is almost universally misunderstood, so when small businesses have an advert designed by a graphic designer, or use a decent designer to build them a website, they think they are doing it right. They don't even realise they have already missed out the most important chunk of the work.

The reputation SEO has got is a shame. IMO, a decent SEO is one of very few of the marketing professionals mentioned, that can actually be a great help to a business owner seeking strategic help. Decent SEO's have an understanding of competition, advantages, target markets, ROI, and most of the things needed to build a decent marketing strategy. The advice of a decent SEO, on the back of an hour or 2 with a decent marketing strategist would be hard to beat for many small business owners.

I reckon this is a fair point. SEO can be the only marketing you ever need if you do it right, but most people, including myself at one point, rush into it, with low budgets and huge aims and expect to be page 1 in a week and raking it in. There is a reason it works and is so successful and that is not because it is easy.

 

[AllUpHere]

I reckon this is a fair point. SEO can be the only marketing you ever need if you do it right, but most people, including myself at one point, rush into it, with low budgets and huge aims and expect to be page 1 in a week and raking it in. There is a reason it works and is so successful and that is not because it is easy.

I wouldn't go as far as to say SEO is the only marketing you ever need, but that's just me being picky over your definition of marketing. SEO can certainly be the only promotional tactic you need to use (in certain circumstances).

The reason SEO is so powerful is that (if done well) it gets the business owner to think about a lot of things they would normally forget about, when using other forms of advertising. Even the very act of performing initial competitor analysis and thinking about the likely cost per client gained, puts businesses leaps and bounds in front of businesses who do no strategic marketing work at all.

A decent SEO can be just as valuable at the marketing planning stage, as they are at any other time. This does, however, rely on the fact that you have done some marketing and business planning first.

 

[tombuckland]

I wouldn't go as far as to say SEO is the only marketing you ever need, but that's just me being picky over your definition of marketing. SEO can certainly be the only promotional tactic you need to use (in certain circumstances).

The reason SEO is so powerful is that (if done well) it gets the business owner to think about a lot of things they would normally forget about, when using other forms of advertising. Even the very act of performing initial competitor analysis and thinking about the likely cost per client gained, puts businesses leaps and bounds in front of businesses who do no strategic marketing work at all.

A decent SEO can be just as valuable at the marketing planning stage, as they are at any other time. This does, however, rely on the fact that you have done some marketing and business planning first.

I wouldn't use it solely "just in case" you do get hit for a random reason by google, and your site goes down the rankings, your profit would instantly be 0. But 75-80% of my budget personally does go on SEO related promotions.

 

[integrity Rules]

Edited
BOS said: ↑
I once got speaking to a new local business next to my favourite bike shop - they were a commercial laundry. Having bought a number of machines they now wanted business. They said that they were advertising in all the local magazines etc and that they hoped that all the hotels nearby read them. I suggested that they contact the hotels direct, by phone or in person.
Far too scary.

[QUOTE="AllUpHere]

In your example, they made marketing mistakes long before they were thinking of ways to promote their business.
If they were hoping for local hotels to supply a healthy chunk of their turnover, they should have tailored their business to best meet the needs of this target market from the start. ( Keypoint)
For example, when buying the machines, they should have been thinking about which ones would be best for this work. Equally, when they hire staff and set opening times, they should consider how to optimise these decisions to meet the needs of the target market. If local hotels always want to do their washing at 6 in the morning, opening at 9 is going to make sure that whatever promotional work you do, it's going to fail.

If you want your marketing to be effective, you really need to start at the beginning.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this post , it hits home.
This is such an important point, easily disregarded. I know we did. Most small businesses learn through trial & error. Frankly , we don't know what "paid for" advice is essential at the outset and what is "nice to have". The value of business forums is that it gives a basis for learning from the experience of others , and for gaining a sense of the territory of interest !
Julia
West London Colonics

 

[AllUpHere]

Thanks for this post , it hits home.
This is such an important point, easily disregarded. I know we did. Most small businesses learn through trial & error. Frankly , we don't know what "paid for" advice is essential at the outset and what is "nice to have". The value of business forums is that it gives a basis for learning from the experience of others , and for gaining a sense of the territory of interest !
Julia
West London Colonics

You are right, it's probably the most important point of all.

The problem is, it has been taken on by all the marketing 'Guru's', who try to twist it into something much more complicated, just so that they can repackage it as their theory and amaze the world. Many small business owners switch of when they hear silly 'buzz phrases' like customer centric marketing. Then you have the academics adding their twist on these sort of things, making it more complicated still.

Again, I completely agree with your second point too. It is near impossible for a small business to know whether it is worth paying for all the advice on offer. There are far too many experts, and the term marketing is used in such a broad and varied sense that it really is near on impossible to know.

I have built my entire consultancy business around the fact that there really are very few people giving no nonsense marketing advice in a completely unbiased way. As a general rule it takes me (on average) 2 hours to give most small business owners and startups enough information for them to be able to deal with their marketing themselves (in a much more productive and profitable way than they would have been able to otherwise).

I often refer to what I do as 'the things you do before marketing'. It's basically the decisions you make, that ensure your marketing works as efficiently and effectively as possible.

If anyone wants me to expand on these points, or give any examples, i'd be happy to.

 

[tombuckland]

just so that they can repackage it as their theory and amaze the world.

Very true. Usually they make it more difficult to understand like you said, but also will leave out some key piece of information that is needed to increase conversions or click throughs or what not.

 

[Colin Fox]

A lot of the time the problem is that many business owners think that by putting a few adverts in the paper, they are marketing when, in fact, they are using a part of marketing called advertising.

They also think that every advert should make a profit and don't really understand that it is a testing process in order to get every little piece of the ad working as good as it should.

There is so much to get right (or wrong) - from the medium used, the target market, the ad size, the ad copy, image or no image, the offer itself, the sales letter, the follow up campaign, the up sells/cross sells, the delivery of offer - everything.

A lot of the time as the OP said, there hasn't been enough thought put in to the overall system except for just chucking a few quid on an ad in the local paper and hoping for the best.

The spray and pray method doesn't work

And I guess what you're saying, as well, is to have a fully developed USP or EVP and integrate it into everything you do.

 

[StevePoster]

Is marketing doesn't apply to all kinds of business? like Websites need different SEO?

 

[AllUpHere]

A lot of the time the problem is that many business owners think that by putting a few adverts in the paper, they are marketing when, in fact, they are using a part of marketing called advertising.

There are many types of small local business which may find (if they get the basics right first), that all they require is an advert in the local paper. It all comes down to how it is used. If this advert is based on promoting a decent USP (although actually i'm not a fan of that term), which has been completely and successfully integrated into the business, whilst at the same time having decent copy that will provoke some kind of emotional response, you're laughing.

There is nothing wrong with keeping it simple when it comes to marketing. Every day I see marketing being over complicated by someone who has a 'system' for marketing, and is trying to sell this 'system' to clients, or by someone who can't admit how basic it actually is, because it will undermine the jumped up ideas they are trying to sell.

 

[AllUpHere]

Is marketing doesn't apply to all kinds of business? like Websites need different SEO?

You are going to need to expand on that. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

 

[Colin Fox]

Yeah, not saying anything against only putting an ad in a local paper but a lot of the business owners I've spoken to don't know anything else. A lot of them have stopped advertising because they aren't getting a return.

What I was saying was that there is so much more to marketing than just advertising in the paper.

Things like joint ventures which are simple to set up, don't cost much and, if done between two great businesses, makes everyone (including the customers) happy.

A lot of business think that a jv is better left to the big boys like Mcdonalds Coke and don't realise there are aspects of marketing they can implement themselves for greater effect than just a spray and pray advert.

 

[johno123]

Someone whose income doesn't depend on whether or not you buy.

The newspaper tells you you need to be in the newspaper. The Yellow Pages salesman tells you you need to be in the Yellow Pages (if such a thing still exists). The SEO tells you you need SEO. The PPC guy says you need PPC...

You need to figure out who your target market is, and what you can afford to spend to get a sale. If you do that (and do it well), you'll eliminate a lot of options that don't suit your business.

Then, once you've figured out what's most likely to work, you can go after that market with an ad that tells them why they should buy from you.

The biggest problem I see with most businesses is the only "reason" to buy from them, rather than their competitors, is that they want your money. There's no advantage for the buyer, only the seller.

And that, IMO, is why so much advertising fails.

Just my 2p,

Steve

I take your point but a blanket fingers in your ears attitude is not really ideal. You will miss opportunities, good advice etc. More about selecting the good advice and making judgements on people. Surely that is part of what makes a good business person?

 

[johno123]

You think the very best advice available regarding a certain product is from a salesman of a particular product?

I think being able to judge people and their advice is a basic requirement for being successful. Not everyone is dishonest and out for themselves. If you have this attitude then life and business become very difficult.

 

[MojoPromotions]

Very good points from yottacom, I couldn't agree more, marketing should be about presenting the solution to a customer's need and letting the benefits do the talking.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

I take your point but a blanket fingers in your ears attitude is not really ideal. You will miss opportunities, good advice etc. More about selecting the good advice

As someone once said, if you can tell the difference between good advice and bad advice, you don't need the advice.

and making judgements on people. Surely that is part of what makes a good business person?

Isn't this whole "good at judging people" thing a fantasy?

Steve

 

[yottacom]

Isn't this whole "good at judging people" thing a fantasy?
Steve

I agree, it's really difficult to judge people, otherwise used car salesmen would be out of job.

 

[Gold-Star-Rob]

No one ever got famous predicting things will stay more or less the same in the future. That's why we have things like "Native Advertising" ans "Customer Centric Marketing".