Lord Sugar's comments - opinions!

[NickD]

Hi,

I am not sure if someone has already started a thread on this - apologies if you have!

Recently, Lord Sugar commented that "Engineers do not make good business people", or words to that effect. This was apparently during an episode of the TV programme 'The Apprentice'.

I have to say that I did not see the program in question, but I, like many others, was particularly insensed by his remarks!

Do you think engineers make good business people? Or am I (an engineer) completely sunk!

It saddens me that these old Victorian attitudes are still prevelant even today, where those who gets their hands dirty are somehow passed off as inferior members of society.

 

[RadiusBPO]

He obviously forgot about Bill Gates, Larry Page etc etc... Maybe Brunel, he must have been a good businessman to get funding for his projects.

Lord Sugars approach to business isn't something I admire, he was never the best in something and made most of his money through property investment and property prices increasing due to the ease people could borrow.

Then of course there's the monkeys he hires, brash offensive middle management types.

Oh what is his latest world leading idea??? Some stupid TV which shows adverts all day and sits in a petrol station.

 

[Esk247]

I don't think he's saying you're an inferior being if you're an engineer...he probably has limited knowledge of engineering, whether that be manufacturing, design, implementation etc etc.

I don't know the context in which any of this was said, so it's hard to comment. :redface:

 

[GeorgeStrait]

What he said was he had never worked with an engineer who made a good business man. He quantified this by saying he had experience of two engineers he had worked with who had failed at business side of things. It wasn't a generalisation, but just a observation from his own experience.

But of course it's been taken out of context. I've never worked someone under 25 who would be good at business, doesn't mean they are not out there though.

 

[IANL]

Hi There

I saw that episode. I think you have to understand his background, his book talks about his business background.

Without knowing his thoughts I would suggest that he means you may be good technically but not very good at marketing. This is also my experience. I have met some great engineers and designers who have some very clever things they can build and design but are not great marketeers.

There are some exceptions where some good engineers have gone on to great things (Dyson). But did he have a great marketing team behind him. Did he think of design or just the technology.

To be fair you can have a crap product and make a lot of money by clever marketing (Ratners comes to mind !! )and conversly you can have a great product but not make any moey due to lack of marketing.

There is always hope. Where there's a will there's a way!

 

[NextPoint]

The specific phrase was more to the point of him saying that he'd never worked with an engineer that was good at business. That's just his observation on the people who he's worked with and not necessarily saying that engineers don't make good business people.

It probably is true that most engineer types aren't good business people - most software engineers I speak to don't like to get involved in the business side of things and instead like to focus on what they do best. If you're good at both engineering and business, the chances are that the engineering will at some point take a back seat as the demands of managing the business takes more and more time; maybe that's why you don't see as many engineers being business people - because they want to focus on what interests them most.

With that said, although Lord Sugar has achieved a lot with his businesses, he's not exactly in the same league as Dyson - a great example of how an engineer can do great in business. Lord Sugar once commented on The Apprentice along the lines of how he wished he'd created the iPod - the fact is this would never have happened because his businesses follow the same model of copying what other businesses do, but doing it cheaper. Steve Jobs on the other hand succeeded by looking at the bigger picture and correctly predicting what there was a demand for - quality MP3 players that were backed by an easy, affordable and legal way to get content, hence the iPod/iTunes combo.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

If he's basing his view of engineers on just 2 people - and genuinely believes what he's saying - he's a half-wit.

It's such a small sample, it's meaningless. What % of businesses succeed? 20%?

However, I suspect he doesn't believe it. Basically, he's an attention-seeking gobshite who will trot out any old rubbish to get attention.

Steve

 

If you are an engineer then your specialist subject is engineering.

If you are a business person then your specialist subject is business.

To hard for some to grasp I expect.

Having said that there is bound to be some that can crossover,but in general having been an engineer ,I would agree with Alan.

Earl

 

[Homer J Simpson]

LOL at Alan, Dyson is worth twice as much as him......

 

[GeorgeStrait]

If he's basing his view of engineers on just 2 people - and genuinely believes what he's saying - he's a half-wit.

It's such a small sample, it's meaningless. What % of businesses succeed? 20%?

However, I suspect he doesn't believe it. Basically, he's an attention-seeking gobshite who will trot out any old rubbish to get attention.

Steve

You missed the point Steve, he said he "had never worked with an engineer who would make a good business man". It's not a generalisation or point of view, but a simple statement from his own experience, that people have taken out of context.

Apparently you are commenting without reading the whole thread, classy

 

LOL at Alan, Dyson is worth twice as much as him......

What makes you think Dyson is an engineer.?:|

Earl

 

[directmarketingadvice]

You missed the point Steve, he said he "had never worked with an engineer who would make a good business man". It's not a generalisation or point of view, but a simple statement from his own experience, that people like to take out of context.

Apparently you are commenting without reading the whole thread, classy

Interesting that you're claiming I never read a post... given I actually made reference to something in that post in my reply.

Your comment was:

He quantified this by saying he had experience of two engineers he had worked with who had failed at business side of things.

my comment was:

If he's basing his view of engineers on just 2 people

So do you still think I hadn't read the thread?

Leaving that silliness aside, what are you disagreeing with?

Are are you arguing that, if 2 people fail in business that happen to have something in common, that's evidence that having that quality means you're not good at business?

Or are you arguing that Sugar's comment about engineers was just a throwaway remark that wasn't intended to suggest anything general about engineers? (In which case, what exactly was his point?)

Or was your comment that "He quantified this by saying he had experience of two engineers he had worked with who had failed at business side of things" just a load of nonsense?

Take your pick...

Steve

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I wouldn't take anything Lord Sugar says personally we need to remember in all this that the show is just pantomime for our entertainment and probably Sugar's. I watch the apprentice because I think it's great people watching, there's nothing better than than watching them trying to squirm out of situations while covering their back making sure if any decision they made goes wrong they can always blame somebody else.

I watched an episode where they had to make money from rubbish I think at the end of the two days they had made something like £900ish and Alan was saying see you can even make money from rubbish. There was five of them involved in the task for two days. No mention of the fuel they had to put in the van let alone the van itself or any other expense involved. I would say they were lucky if they came out of it £40 each and that's before tax Well worth two days graft.

The only person making any money out of rubbish is Alan himself Your a light weight Lord Sugar, your fired!

Just because your in business doesn't mean you have to be an absolute d*ck to make money. I wouldn't want to work with most of the people who are on the show. I hate sycophants at the best of times and the show brings out the worst in them.

I can't remember the name but the girl who went the other week hit the nail on the head when she said if she had to be the person they wanted her to be then it wasn't for her anyway. Good for her.

Last week Alan was giving the Irish bloke a bad time for being "Passive, aggressive" and was good at convincing other people to go along with his decisions.

Alan said in his time he's heard all the bullsh*t in the book. But surely that is exactly what the Irish bloke needs to do??? Being good at non aggressively selling ideas to people. That's a salesmen isn't it?

To the OP anyone from any back ground can make a good business person so don't let Lord Sugars do as I say not as I do approach convince you any different.

 

[Gord]

I'd say it's about the same for any skill group.

This is a bit of an obnoxious generalisation but I'm just making a point.

Most get stuck in their particular work skill mind set, makes no difference if they are engineers ( attention to detail ) , sales/marketing ( chasing turnover / hairy fairy feel good factors ) or finance ( manipulating & believing the numbers rather than reality ).
I'd say that around 10%-20% of any of the groups could make a good job of running a business/ becoming a good CEO. The rest will, to some degree or other, do badly because they could not take a broader view & adapt from their previous narrow experience & job requirements.

If you are a business person then your specialist subject is business.
Earl

But it doesn't mean you are any good at it. I'd still argue that 10-20% applies here also.

Anyhow, China is run by engineers, google the makeup of the China Govt.

 

[GeorgeStrait]

Interesting that you're claiming I never read a post... given I actually made reference to something in that post in my reply.

Your comment was:



my comment was:



So do you still think I hadn't read the thread?

Leaving that silliness aside, what are you disagreeing with?

Are are you arguing that, if 2 people fail in business that happen to have something in common, that's evidence that having that quality means you're not good at business?

Or are you arguing that Sugar's comment about engineers was just a throwaway remark that wasn't intended to suggest anything general about engineers? (In which case, what exactly was his point?)

Or was your comment that "He quantified this by saying he had experience of two engineers he had worked with who had failed at business side of things" just a load of nonsense?

Take your pick...

Steve

Steve, I'll keep this really simple for you as you seem to be struggling.

He DID NOT generalise, he has experience of TWO engineers that failed at the business side of things, that is all he ever said.

Understand now, he is NOT referring to ALL engineers.

Hope you understand now.

 

[NickD]

Interesting comments!

True, Lord Sugar's more recent ventures have been in the property sector, although this has taken a bit of a bashing of late. I remember his earlier ventures in home computing too. The products, whilst cheap, were unreliable and he had many problems with suppliers in the early days.

I am not sure if some of the people he takes on through 'The Apprentice' are the sort I would employ! Some of them have hardly jumped out of their school unform and seem to call themselves 'businessmen' or businesswomen'. Good business is more the result of experience telling you whether certain decisions have, in the past, been right. Having a degree in Business Studies does not actually make you good at business!

Back to the original theme, I believe that good businessmen/women come from many backgrounds, not just accountancy and law. Engineers, it is often said, can bring a sense of logic to business methodology. Also, remember that without engineers in his businesses, Lord S would never have made it to where he is today!

 

[I Love Spreadsheets]

I'm start to think that Lord Sugar is becoming a bit of media whore out to say controversial things just to get the press coverage. I stopped listening to him sometime ago when he failed to represent entrepreneurship in this country despite being given a government position to do so.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Steve, I'll keep this really simple for you as you seem to be struggling.

He DID NOT generalise, he has experience of TWO engineers that failed at the business side of things, that is all he ever said.

Understand now, he is NOT referring to ALL engineers.

Hope you understand now.

So, that was #2 in my list of 3 options?

Do you want to have a go at answering the follow-up question for that choice?

Steve

 

[Merchant UK]

I'm an Engineer, and have run my own engineering Company amonst other companies for the past 15 years without any issues, I wouldn't class myself as an expert businessman otherwise i'd be a multi millionaire however i do know engough about business, built up over the years and from experiance.

I've never listened to Lord Sugar much as i believe he's pretty arrogant and always thinks he's right, mine you if you had his money then you could say what you wanted.

As far as a business mentor he has about enough appeal as a Pug with no legs, Personally i just can't stand him at all.

For a real Business Mentor and sadly they don't make them like this anymore was John Harvey-Jones, how hosted that Business programe, The troubleshooter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey-Jones

To me he was worth 10 alan sugars, RIP

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I'm start to think that Lord Sugar is becoming a bit of media whore out to say controversial things just to get the press coverage

That is exactly what it is, the show needs to sell. How many people does he fire purely because they are of no entertainment value rather than the best choice for a business partner. I personally think the engineer went because the Irish bloke who should have went had more entertainment value. He picked the name "hip replacement" for a magazine aimed at older people

The engineer went and due to Alan not having any other good reason went with because engineers don't make good business people.

When it comes to generalising I think were all doing it here, everyone's picturing a bloke with a micrometer and a set square. There wouldn't be much point in asking a Bio medicine engineer or motor engineer to build a bridge.

 

[GeorgeStrait]

So, that was #2 in my list of 3 options?

Do you want to have a go at answering the follow-up question for that choice?

Steve

Sorry Steve, but if you actually understood what was said and when (I really can't explain it any simpler, probably my fault) you would realise your "questions" are wholly irrelevant.

Maybe if you watch the show you will get a better understanding.

 

[Team Leith Training]

I have not read all the threads but did hear of the comment.

All i can say is, it is indeed a controversal comment.
I am an engineer myself, who is not doing too badly.
Steve Jobs, is certainly doing better than me with £113m a MONTH on Itunes and Iphone Apps alone.

So i certainly thing he needs to revise this.

Besides, without wishing to post deflamatory remarks about Lord Alan, but what has he done thats really been a success?
The amstrad in the 1980s, well done i'll give him that.

But since then, he missed out on the co processor and did nothing there.
Developed an emailing telephone?

Again not wishing to cast aspersions (and i would not say no to his bank balance) but on the scale of things, he is not that big compared to todays industrial captains. Like Branson, or Jobs, Gates, and i hate to say it, Trump.

This is all i will say on it, but to be honest i stopped watching the apprentice weeks ago, and do not intend to view it.
The calibre is just not there, and to be honest, i have better things to do (like posting threads like these lol)

Theres my two bobs worth.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Sorry Steve, but if you actually understood what was said and when (I really can't explain it any simpler, probably my fault) you would realise your "questions" are wholly irrelevant.

So asking in which context - or for what reason - he said what you claim he said is "irrelevant"?

I don't think so.

Since I can't get any sense out of you, I turned to Google and, according http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2011/jun/apprentice-engineer.cfm:

He explained his decision to fire 28-year-old Ward by claiming "I've never come across an engineer that can turn his hand to business".

Now, if as you said, that's based on knowing 2 engineers, I stand by my comments.

On the other hand, if your comment that

He quantified this by saying he had experience of two engineers he had worked with who had failed at business side of things.

is just something you made up, I'd be happy to re-consider my opinion.

As Keynes once said, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

Happy now?

Steve

 

[GeorgeStrait]

.

As Keynes once said, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

Happy now?

Steve

What's wrong with "I've never come across an engineer that can turn his hand to business". Wasn't that what I've been saying. He has never come across one (he, or that Nick chap quoted the figure of two he had experience with).

Do you know what, you could have watched the show by now and be making informed comments, unless of course you don't get a tv reception in your flat, but then you can always use Iplayer of course.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

What's wrong with "I've never come across an engineer that can turn his hand to business". Wasn't that what I've been saying. He has never come across one (he, or that Nick chap quoted the figure of two he had experience with).

Who said they had experience of 2?

Sugar? Or someone else?

On page 1, you said it was Sugar who made this claim.

If that isn't true, then the whole story changes, doesn't it?

Steve

 

[GeorgeStrait]

Who said they had experience of 2?

Sugar? Or someone else?

On page 1, you said it was Sugar who made this claim.

If that isn't true, then the whole story changes, doesn't it?

Steve

I give up Steve, are your being deliberately thick or playing games . Either old Sugar socks said two, or that Nick chap said Sugar had experience of two. I can't remember which but the end result is the same. He didn't generalise.

As I said, watch the bloody show, then come back when you have a clue.

I'm off for a lie down now

 

[directmarketingadvice]

I give up Steve, are your being deliberately thick or playing games

As I understand it, this thread is about comments made by Alan Sugar.

Therefore, what he actually said, is relevant.

Making up stuff and claiming he said it... or taking stuff that other people said and claiming it was Sugar that said it... or not knowing who said something, but attributing it to Sugar anyway... is likely to lead people to the wrong conclusions.

...And pointing out that simple truth isn't being "thick" or "playing games", it's just knowing that it's useful to know the difference between "facts" and "made up stuff".

Steve

 

[Podge]

The exact quote from AS is " I've never yet come across an engineer that can turn his hand to business"

 

[Esk247]

The exact quote from AS is " I've never yet come across an engineer that can turn his hand to business"

then he's talking rubbish..look at Estwig.

 

[Podge]

then he's talking rubbish..look at Estwig.

I don't disagree with you I merely posting the quote as there appeared to be a bit of confusion as who said what.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

The exact quote from AS is " I've never yet come across an engineer that can turn his hand to business"

Was that all he said? Or did he also suggest this was based on just 2 engineers failing in business?

If he just said that sentence you quoted, it could be fair enough. He may have known 20 engineers that started businesses and they all failed.

20/20 failing starts to get significant. 2/2 is meaningless.

It's all about the sample size.

Steve

 

[Jeff FV]

Originally Posted by Podge
The exact quote from AS is " I've never yet come across an engineer that can turn his hand to business"

That ^^^^^^^^ is was Sugar said.

Then on the after show programme on BBC2 Nick Hewer, Sir Alan's aid, said that he (Sugar) had had a bad experience with 2 engineers.

 

[GeorgeStrait]

That ^^^^^^^^ is was Sugar said.

Then on the after show programme on BBC2 Nick Hewer, Sir Alan's aid, said that he (Sugar) had had a bad experience with 2 engineers.

Thank you, which is why - as I said - it wasn't a sweeping generalisation but based on his experience with these two engineers.

Doesn't matter if Sugar or Nick said it, it's the facts behind the statement.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

That ^^^^^^^^ is was Sugar said.

Then on the after show programme on BBC2 Nick Hewer, Sir Alan's aid, said that he (Sugar) had had a bad experience with 2 engineers.

OK, so not what George Strait claimed on page 1. To be fair, I should have guessed...

So does that mean Sugar's opinion was based on a sample of just 2 engineers?

Or do we even know?

Steve

 

[RedEvo]

I'm an engineer and I run a business but it doesn't surprise me that Sugar has never experienced an engineer who is also good at business. I don't see his comments as controversial, it's just his experience and I dare say many other people's.

Engineers tend to be academically talented (I'm the exception) and as such would have the confidence to start a business. However, I believe if I'd started my own business with me and a business head I'd be doing much better than I am. Sure I've learned some stuff but I don't think my engineering background has assisted me.

d

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Throughout history there have been fantastic engineers who have built magnificent machines, railways, bridges, aero engines and ships all of which were world leaders, but at the same time a very large majority of them had their companies go bust on more than one occasion.

During the same period thousands of businessmen also went to the wall

I should expect it's very hard for a engineer, chemist or any one else in a profession to enjoy working outside their first love and therefore maybe not apply a great deal of interest in the management of the business

 

[jon1984]

One word:

DYSON

 

[directmarketingadvice]

I should expect it's very hard for a engineer, chemist or any one else in a profession to enjoy working outside their first love

Surely most business owners liked something before they liked business?

I don't watch the Apprentice, but would an engineer who goes on that show really be passionate about being an engineer?

Based on the early series I watched, he'd probably care more about being a z-list celebrity than anything else... including engineering and including business.

Many people take a meandering road towards starting a business.

Starting off as the sort of logical thinker who can get an engineering degree should hardly be an obstacle.

Steve

 

[Jeff FV]

Starting off as the sort of logical thinker who can get an engineering degree should hardly be an obstacle.

Steve

I did an engineering degree. In my final year we did a module on engieering management or engineering in business, or some such (it was a looong time ago!) and we used to have an hour a week lecture from someone who worked in the City.

He always used to tell us that he'd rather employ an engineering graduate (for his city firm) than a business graduate (and the University had (still has) a strong business school) as we were highly numerate, could interpret graphs and charts, analyse a problem etc. Sometimes wish I'd taken his advice and taken him up on his offer - I'd probably be retired on some Caribbean island by now!

I think Sir Alan is guilty of bit of gross generalisation, not sure why so many are so keen on pigeon holing people.

20 years ago I would never have thought I'd find myself selling cards and gift wrap to high quality retail outlets, but I don't think that knowing how to calculate the stress in a turbine blade has hampered me!

Perhaps a better question might be 'what is an engineer?'

 

[The Panda]

Engineers also make terrible customers.
I have had dealings with 4 in my years of selling and each one was a pedantic know it all. I avoid them like the plague now.
I can smell an engineer 10 yards off. I am not the only one in my business that says this either.