Looking for legal advice

[Clarel2303]

Hi, I am hoping someone can point me in the right direction.
I have an issue relating to my telecoms contract and the relocation of my business.
I have contacted a few law firms now and all have said they can't help. I believe I need a firm/person who specialises in telecoms contracts?
Any help gratefully received.
Thanks

 

[fisicx]

What exactly is the issue?

Most telecom contracts are pretty watertight which means moving to a new location may require you to continue to pay the existing contract or pay for relocation. This might not seem fair but it will all be in the terms you agreed to.

Unless of course it's something else.

 

[Clarel2303]

What exactly is the issue?

Most telecom contracts are pretty watertight which means moving to a new location may require you to continue to pay the existing contract or pay for relocation. This might not seem fair but it will all be in the terms you agreed to.

Unless of course it's something else.

Thank you for your reply.
I am moving my business to a bigger premises.
I checked my telecoms contract and there doesn't appear to be anything mentioned in the Ts&Cs about relocation or associated costs. When I enquired with them they have quoted the best part of £1000 to move the services, which is a significant amount for my small business.
Before just simply having to accept it, I want some advice on whether I can argue this.
Hope that makes sense.
Thanks

 

[fisicx]

Makes perfect sense.

There is probably something in the contract about relocation - there usually is.

Maybe Graham (@The Resolver) can help with this.

Or our telecoms expert @cjd

 

[Clarel2303]

Thanks, hopefully I can find some light at the end of this tunnel.

 

[cjd]

Some (many)Telco contracts are theft, that's one reason we got involved. £1,000 is a lovely, big round number isn't it?

I'd need to know a lot more about the contract and what kind of services you have before being able to say anything meaningful. As a starter, what does it say about termination?

Also, what services do you have and how much per month are you paying?

 

[eteb3]

It may say nothing about relocating, but what does it say about the premises to be served? If the premises are specified, it’s highly likely that serving new premises will mean a new contract. But it all depends on what’s written, obvs

Who is the contract with?

 

[Clarel2303]

Some (many)Telco contracts are theft, that's one reason we got involved. £1,000 is a lovely, big round number isn't it?

I'd need to know a lot more about the contract and what kind of services you have before being able to say anything meaningful. As a starter, what does it say about termination?

Also, what services do you have and how much per month are you paying?

Hi cjd,
We have broadband and phone (2*handsets). We pay the telecoms provider for the services and a finance lease company for the rental of the equipment. We pay a total of approx. £270 per month - £207 for the equipment and £63 for the services. It's horrendous but we were misled at the point of sale.

Regarding termination it states: 7. TERMINATION 7.1 The Services, (other than Support Services, see clause 14.2) may be terminated (subject to clause 7.2 and 7.3), by the Customer giving at least 90 days written notice to the Supplier provided that expiry of the notice coincides with the completion of the Minimum Term. In other words, the Customer cannot terminate for its convenience prior to the end of the Minimum Term. If no such notice has been provided, the term of the Contract shall automatically continue at the end of the Minimum Term (such extension being the Extended Term), unless a party gives to the other party not less than 30 days' written notice at any time to terminate the Contract. 7.2 If the Customer is a Microenterprise or Small Enterprise Customer, or a Not-For-Profit Customer, the Minimum Term shall not be more than 24 months for the relevant Services.

As I mentioned previously, I can't find anything in the contract about relocating and costs of doing so. There is a clause covering material detriment and I wondered if this is something I could invoke.

Getting legal advice on this issue appears to be impossible.

Any words of wisdom you can offer would be much appreciated.

 

[Clarel2303]

It may say nothing about relocating, but what does it say about the premises to be served? If the premises are specified, it’s highly likely that serving new premises will mean a new contract. But it all depends on what’s written, obvs

Who is the contract with?

Hi eteb3,
The premises are specified as part of the "customer information" alongside my contact details.
It's all very overwhelming. I was hoping to have a solicitor to look over the contract and advise me of what options I have, if any.

 

[Newchodge]

Hi eteb3,
The premises are specified as part of the "customer information" alongside my contact details.
It's all very overwhelming. I was hoping to have a solicitor to look over the contract and advise me of what options I have, if any.

I don't understand why you are struggling to find a solicitor. It is very basic contract law. They will need to read he entire contract and any related documents that are referred to, so they may charge quite a lot.

I assume you are still well within the minimum term?

 

[eteb3]

A solicitor would cost you in the region of £600 minimum I would guess

 

[pentel]

Have you reached the end of the minimum term?

Not sure what equipment you are leasing but £207 seems a lot, 2 basic phones and a modem / router should cost no more than £300 in total!

 

[Clarel2303]

I don't understand why you are struggling to find a solicitor. It is very basic contract law. They will need to read he entire contract and any related documents that are referred to, so they may charge quite a lot.

I assume you are still well within the minimum term?

Hi Newchodge,
I thought the same but 2 of the several I have contacted said that telecoms is more specialised.
Yes, I am 2 years in to a 7 years contract.

 

[Clarel2303]

A solicitor would cost you in the region of £600 minimum I would guess

I haven't managed to get as far as a quote yet.

 

[Clarel2303]

Have you reached the end of the minimum term?

Not sure what equipment you are leasing but £207 seems a lot, 2 basic phones and a modem / router should cost no more than £300 in total!

Hi Pentel,
We are 2 years in to a 7 year contract.
It is basic equipment, likely to cost around £1000 to buy outright, but lets just say I wasn't advised of everything at the point of sale...that's a whole different matter that I have already attempted to resolve.

 

[Newchodge]

Can you copy the part of the contract about premises on here, please, we may be able to offer some ideas.

 

[Clarel2303]

Can you copy the part of the contract about premises on here, please, we may be able to offer some ideas.

To be sure I share the correct part, do you mean all clauses that refer to the premises?

 

[Newchodge]

To be sure I share the correct part, do you mean all clauses that refer to the premises?

Actually, it may be better to share the whole document. I'll send you a private message with my email so you can send it there, if that's OK?

 

[Clarel2303]

Actually, it may be better to share the whole document. I'll send you a private message with my email so you can send it there, if that's OK?

Yes, that would be much appreciated. Thanks

 

[Newchodge]

Yes, that would be much appreciated. Thanks

Ok, I think you may be caught by para 20.1.2 under which you cannot allow anyone other than them to relocate the equipment. Could you post that clause, so that other may comment, please?

 

[eteb3]

2 If the Customer is a Microenterprise or Small Enterprise Customer, or a Not-For-Profit Customer, the Minimum Term shall not be more than 24 months for the relevant Services.

What are the definitions of Microenterprise and Small Enterprise? If you’re stressing over £1000, your biz is probably one or the other; and that makes me want to know where your 7 years comes from because 24 months should be the max

The notice provision you quoted is pretty muddled, but it looks to me like you can give 30 days any time after the end of the minimum term

 

[Clarel2303]

Ok, I think you may be caught by para 20.1.2 under which you cannot allow anyone other than them to relocate the equipment. Could you post that clause, so that other may comment, please?

Thanks again for taking a look at this for me.

Here's the clause you mention: 20.1.2 ensure that the Equipment is not, without prior approval from the Supplier moved at any time from the address at which it was originally installed, or altered, adjusted or interfered with in any way except by the Supplier's servants or agents. Alterations include the reprogramming of the Equipment to change network providers for the purpose of least cost routing;

I had noticed this clause but I didn't interpret this as allowing them to charge for relocating the service.

 

[Newchodge]

Thanks again for taking a look at this for me.

Here's the clause you mention: 20.1.2 ensure that the Equipment is not, without prior approval from the Supplier moved at any time from the address at which it was originally installed, or altered, adjusted or interfered with in any way except by the Supplier's servants or agents. Alterations include the reprogramming of the Equipment to change network providers for the purpose of least cost routing;

I had noticed this clause but I didn't interpret this as allowing them to charge for relocating the service.

It doesn't specifically say they can charge, but it certainly doesn't say they should do it for free!

 

[Clarel2303]

What are the definitions of Microenterprise and Small Enterprise? If you’re stressing over £1000, your biz is probably one or the other; and that makes me want to know where your 7 years comes from because 24 months should be the max

The notice provision you quoted is pretty muddled, but it looks to me like you can give 30 days any time after the end of the minimum term

Thanks eteb3.

I am confused by this part because my business is a microenterprise but the minimum term on the contract states 84 months. I wonder whether the 84 months term relates only to the finance lease though rather than the services or both combined?

 

[Clarel2303]

It doesn't specifically say they can charge, but it certainly doesn't say they should do it for free!

Yes, that's true.

 

[fisicx]

I had noticed this clause but I didn't interpret this as allowing them to charge for relocating the service.

That’s precisely what it means. Only they can move anything and do so will mean paying for the change (just like you have to pay for anything these days).

 

[Clarel2303]

That’s precisely what it means. Only they can move anything and do so will mean paying for the change (just like you have to pay for anything these days).

Thanks fisicx.

So they don't actually have to state that there will be a cost involved?

 

[fisicx]

Thanks fisicx.

So they don't actually have to state that there will be a cost involved?

No. In the same way when you get a utilities contract they don’t say there will be a charge to make a change.

 

[eteb3]

my business is a microenterprise but the minimum term on the contract states 84 months. I wonder whether the 84 months term relates only to the finance lease though rather than the services or both combined?

The clause about micro businesses is clear: the max length of the minimum period for a micro business is 24 months.

If another clause says it’s 84 months, the court will be left trying to decide the true intention of the parties. Unfortunately the bespoke term (if that’s what it was? the one you haven’t quoted) is likely to override the boilerplate term (the one you have quoted). But that’s not a certainty and you really do need to show the whole thing to a contract solicitor.

And do you mean you have two contracts, for services and for leasing the equipment? Or are you speculating how the one contract in front of you works?

 

[Clarel2303]

The clause about micro businesses is clear: the max length of the minimum period for a micro business is 24 months.

If another clause says it’s 84 months, the court will be left trying to decide the true intention of the parties. Unfortunately the bespoke term (if that’s what it was? the one you haven’t quoted) is likely to override the boilerplate term (the one you have quoted). But that’s not a certainty and you really do need to show the whole thing to a contract solicitor.

And do you mean you have two contracts, for services and for leasing the equipment? Or are you speculating how the one contract in front of you works?

It is what I believe is called a "dual contract". It was presented to me by the telecoms provider but the finance lease is a different company.
The contract is a total of 13 pages long, with 5 pages relating to the finance lease agreement. On checking again, the 84 months is only mentioned on the pages relating to the finance lease.
I definitely could use some legal eyes to look over it but yet to find a firm/person that is willing/able to.

 

[cjd]

Like I said, many (most) telco contracts are theft and ALL 7 year contracts are extortion with menaces.

Give them 90 days notice and learn from the mistake. Continue with you fight against mis-selling.

There's absolutely nothing special about the services you have. Get a new (honest) provider at the new premises. There is no reason for a contract longer than 30 days. Porting your number will cease your existing services but you'll still need to pay for the 90 days notice.

The criminals will probably tell you that you can't port your numbers until the end of the 90 day (or 7 years if they're also enjoy kidnap) but that's a lie, you can.

I'm not a lawyer and I've not seen your contract so that's not legal advice - if you feel that you need it, you'll only get that from a solicitor. Otherwise you're going have to make a commercial decision and tough it out.

If you need help with what a sensible service would cost you, give us a call. I'd be surprised if it's more than £60 pm for the services and a few hundred quid one-off for the phones and router. No contract.

0345 868 5555