Liz Truss PM - Gone Within a Year?

MBE2017

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    The problems were similar in 2008 but they just invented a way of kicking the can down the road.

    Nothing new, quantative easing has gone on for decades.

    Simple question, where has listening to the experts got us in the last 100 years? The same economic cycles repeat over and over again, just as the housing market has an 18/20 year cycle.

    Nothing changes, which is exactly how the elites like things.
     
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    If Germany goes into a bad recession as well, the EU could be finished, who will bail them out?
    Nobody.

    However - Germany has resources and a level of wealth that allow it far greater leeway than other countries. Each household is preparing itself for an austere winter and buildings in Germany are far better insulated than in the UK, where they are often not insulated at all. They can and they will save energy.

    Also, the German economy is not just Germany, but all those counties around it - Denmark, Poland, Austria, Czechia, North Italy (South Tirol), Switzerland, France, Belgium, Holland - all deeply integrated with the German economy. Your all-German kitchen appliances were probably made in Spain or Czechia, my neighbour's Mini was built in Munich and German cars are built using components and pre-built assemblies from all over the EU. Aldi and Lidl are in every EU country, as well as the UK and the US and beyond.

    Anyway - right now, I am watching with morbid fascination as this idiot government blows up the UK economy. Even Ray Dalio (CEO of the world's largest hedge and investment fund company 'Bridgewater Associates) gave an interview to the BBC's 'Today' programme, condemning what he sees as a fundamental failure by this government to understand how money markets work -

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001cdzf (go to 2:33:30)

    What is going on right now defies all logic and flies in the face of everything we know.
     
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    Simple question, where has listening to the experts got us in the last 100 years?
    Unfortunately, politicians only listen to people they agree with and those are nearly always NOT experts. Post-war nationalisation by Atlee? The mad groundnut scheme? Thatcher giving away the UK's oil for just £400m (today's value at least £2tn!)? Believing in trickle-down economics? MMT? No sane expert would ever have pushed any of that nonsense!

    No - those are the fruits of bias and dogma.
     
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    Karimbo

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    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001cdzf (go to 2:33:30)

    What is going on right now defies all logic and flies in the face of everything we know.
    I am surprised that any crackpot government can just waltz in and make changes to this degree. Surely there are civil service people in place who will advise them strongly on what they can and cannot do.

    I don't think it's due to ignorance I think it due to deliberate recklessness. They believe the only solution to inflation is rising interest rates and they do what they need to do get the bank of England to raise rates.

    But the fault with that simplistic logic is that our inflation is caused by energy imports which are in USD. The cure for inflation devalues our currency agains5 USD which causes more inflation. Turkey was a basket case example of that.

    They should have just kept things as they are until the energy markets stabliise and then put their policies in April.

    Right now we're going to get petrol. Back at 1.80+ again and diesel at 1.90+




    It's gambling with peoples lives. They are gambling that people will just a rough 2 years and come out of it OK. L But it might not work like that, there could be damage that lasts 10 or. More years. It might cause millions of homeowners aged 45+ to lose their homes and never be able to get back onto property ladder and basically ruin the life.
     
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    WaveJumper

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    Maybe Boris wasn't so bad after all........ some one had to say it. If this was not so serious it would be funny, alas they have absolutely no idea what they are doing and looks like Truss and her team will not be happy until they have completely trashed the UK.

    And its only Wednesday
     
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    Newchodge

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    I am surprised that any crackpot government can just waltz in and make changes to this degree. Surely there are civil service people in place who will advise them strongly on what they can and cannot do.

    I don't think it's due to ignorance I think it due to deliberate recklessness. They believe the only solution to inflation is rising interest rates and they do what they need to do get the bank of England to raise rates.

    But the fault with that simplistic logic is that our inflation is caused by energy imports which are in USD. The cure for inflation devalues our currency agains5 USD which causes more inflation. Turkey was a basket case example of that.

    They should have just kept things as they are until the energy markets stabliise and then put their policies in April.

    Right now we're going to get petrol. Back at 1.80+ again and diesel at 1.90+




    It's gambling with peoples lives. They are gambling that people will just a rough 2 years and come out of it OK. L But it might not work like that, there could be damage that lasts 10 or. More years. It might cause millions of homeowners aged 45+ to lose their homes and never be able to get back onto property ladder and basically ruin the life.
    The first thing Kwarteng did was to sack the senior civil servant at the Treasury. His deputy's post had not been filled for months .... This was planned.
     
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    MBE2017

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    The real petrol on the fire moment for the UK will be next year.

    1.8 million fixed rate mortgages are coming to an end of their fixed period, even if they can afford another fix, many might not be able to get one. People used to paying 1-2% APR mortgages will be looking at 6-10% APR IMO.

    I think repossessions are likely to surge.
     
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    IanSuth

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    The real petrol on the fire moment for the UK will be next year.

    1.8 million fixed rate mortgages are coming to an end of their fixed period, even if they can afford another fix, many might not be able to get one. People used to paying 1-2% APR mortgages will be looking at 6-10% APR IMO.

    I think repossessions are likely to surge.
    My brother luckily just fixed a 5yr deal on his huge house purchase and by the end of that he should be an equity partner with big £

    But he just built a spreadsheet model for a mate to help him understand the various options for his mortgage and what they could/would mean under various scenarios

    That guy is now both very grateful and sh*t scared
     
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    IanSuth

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    It's gambling with peoples lives. They are gambling that people will just a rough 2 years and come out of it OK. L But it might not work like that, there could be damage that lasts 10 or. More years. It might cause millions of homeowners aged 45+ to lose their homes and never be able to get back onto property ladder and basically ruin the life.
    The ones over 45 should have got their first properties fairly cheap so any over stretching now is basically self inflicted (i am 51)

    The ones I feel sorry for are aged 40-45, they missed cheap houses and so have large debt to equity ratios and as little chance to start again
     
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    Karimbo

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    The ones over 45 should have got their first properties fairly cheap so any over stretching now is basically self inflicted (i am 51)

    The ones I feel sorry for are aged 40-45, they missed cheap houses and so have large debt to equity ratios and as little chance to start again
    I think 40-45 are probably the age I am talking about. They are going to be in that age where they wont qualify for 25 year mortgages, so they have to have huge deposit to get a 20 or 15 year mortgage on their income.

    It's the age where if they're not established and got their career on track, early on in their life. It may be a bit too late if they mess up at that age.

    I'm a bit youger and I'm generation rent. I have got a few more years to get a 25 year mortgage so it might work out alright for me if the property prices do crash. But I'm renting so I'm at the whim of my landlords financial stability.
     
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    Karimbo

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    it's laughable what they're doing this morning.

    instead of facing the media or parliament they're going round across the country doing 5 minute interviews with local radio stations. parroting the same answers over and over again.

    Blaming everything on Ukraine and saying how they saved the everyone for £5000 energy bills.

    Ukraine war happened back in March 2022 and we were coping fine. The energy price cap was also the same one that was in place by the previous administration.

    completely ignoring any questions about the policy announcements that sent shockwaves through the markets crashing the pound and some bond market thing which i dont understand.
     
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    IanSuth

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    Not just Ukraine, She is trying to twist things so the banks take the blame for any interest rate increases, pretty inevitable she would do this really
    Be interesting to see how they spin it when the departmental heads come back and say "forget cuts - we need more money for the school heating bills, cost of living pay rises, hospital heating, police station heating, prison heating, the promised more NHS 111 call handlers" (an area i know quite well the skills shortages in) etc etc
     
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    Justin Smith

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    The Tories really are coming out with absolute tosh now.
    Blaming the invasion of Ukraine disingenuous, the main reason we are where we are would be shutting down the economy, to a greater or lesser extent, for about two years. And the inflation is due to pumping many many Billions into it at the same time. The government (= the Tories) chose to do that, albeit with the total support of Labour. In fact Labour wanted even more suppression, for even longer, and even more money pumped into the economy.
    Jokers, the lot of them (incl Labour).
     
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    Be interesting to see how they spin it when the departmental heads come back and say "forget cuts - we need more money for the school heating bills, cost of living pay rises, hospital heating, police station heating, prison heating, the promised more NHS 111 call handlers"
    I do understand the reasoning behind the motive behind the call for public savings - everywhere I look at the public or quasi-public sector, I see waste on a colossal scale. HS2, Creative England, all sorts of publicly funded bodies to promote various arts festivals, MoD wasting £13bn on canceled projects - and every bloody corner of the NHS, from absurd and failed IT projects to league tables for how often nurses wash their hands. One doctor told me that he spends four hours a day, doing paperwork - making him a remarkably highly paid filing clerk!

    But you have to restructure public bodies over the long term - not by cutting budgets! You would not cut costs in a private company by turning down the heating, but by closing unprofitable production lines.
     
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    I do understand the reasoning behind the motive behind the call for public savings - everywhere I look at the public or quasi-public sector, I see waste on a colossal scale. HS2, Creative England, all sorts of publicly funded bodies to promote various arts festivals, MoD wasting £13bn on canceled projects - and every bloody corner of the NHS, from absurd and failed IT projects to league tables for how often nurses wash their hands. One doctor told me that he spends four hours a day, doing paperwork - making him a remarkably highly paid filing clerk!

    But you have to restructure public bodies over the long term - not by cutting budgets! You would not cut costs in a private company by turning down the heating, but by closing unprofitable production lines.
    That is exactly the point - but they won't do it. They'll leave everything in place, without reform or prioritisation, but 'trim' the existing budgets so essential public services suffer just as much as unnecessary, unwanted, or grossly inefficient services. Maritime reconnaissance aircraft anyone ?
     
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    The Tories really are coming out with absolute tosh now.
    Blaming the invasion of Ukraine disingenuous, the main reason we are where we are would be shutting down the economy, to a greater or lesser extent, for about two years. And the inflation is due to pumping many many Billions into it at the same time. The government (= the Tories) chose to do that, albeit with the total support of Labour. In fact Labour wanted even more suppression, for even longer, and even more money pumped into the economy.
    Jokers, the lot of them (incl Labour).
    They've done even better than blaming Ukraine. Apparently, (according to the Tory Leader of the House of Lords), the market reaction was caused by the markets believing there was an increased chance of a Labour Government being elected, with consequent increases in taxation and borrowing.

    You couldn't make it up.
     
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    thetiger2015

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    That is exactly the point - but they won't do it. They'll leave everything in place, without reform or prioritisation, but 'trim' the existing budgets so essential public services suffer just as much as unnecessary, unwanted, or grossly inefficient services. Maritime reconnaissance aircraft anyone ?
    This isn't just a UK thing though, almost every government seems to leak money. The US military burns through billions doing things it doesn't need to do and creating more administrative costs just because it gives people jobs to do.

    Didn't they employ a former military guy to oversee the NHS? Wasn't he going to streamline it all? What happened?
     
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    Newchodge

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    They've done even better than blaming Ukraine. Apparently, (according to the Tory Leader of the House of Lords), the market reaction was caused by the markets believing there was an increased chance of a Labour Government being elected, with consequent increases in taxation and borrowing.

    You couldn't make it up.
    Did they, by any chance, suggest WHY there was an increased chance of a Labour government?
     
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    simon field

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    One doesn't wish to be unkind but following her round of media interviews yesterday the question needs to asked if Truss is actually unwell , in particular whether she has had a mini-stroke or TIA. The vacant expression, the cold , flat , lack of any emotion in her speech . The slowed down thought processes , the long silence between the questions asked of her and any reply. Answering every question with the same answer , as if she hasn't heard or understood what was said to her. Early retirement on ill health grounds would be a respectable way out for her.
     
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    MOIC

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    One doesn't wish to be unkind but following her round of media interviews yesterday the question needs to asked if Truss is actually unwell , in particular whether she has had a mini-stroke or TIA. The vacant expression, the cold , flat , lack of any emotion in her speech . The slowed down thought processes , the long silence between the questions asked of her and any reply. Answering every question with the same answer , as if she hasn't heard or understood what was said to her. Early retirement on ill health grounds would be a respectable way out for her.
    Nothing wrong with being unkind!

    She's behaving like most of us thought she would, she hasn't got a clue.

    She cannot answer a question that she isn't expecting. She just repeats the same thing over and over again . . . . .Putin's illegal war is to blame.

    Get rid of her now, before she causes more damage and makes a laughing stock of the UK.

    With hindsight, a year was far too long to include in the title of this thread!
     
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    The vacant expression, the cold , flat , lack of any emotion in her speech . The slowed down thought processes , the long silence between the questions asked of her and any reply. Answering every question with the same answer , as if she hasn't heard or understood what was said to her.
    Abject fear (and stage fright) works exactly like a transient ischaemic attack.

    It has been a long time since I had stage fright, but watching LT, I saw the same signs the audience must have seen in me when I first trod the boards at the age of 18 (playing the king in 'The Tinder Box' panto).

    She was hesitant and stumbling and repeated herself for the same reasons that I was hesitant and stumbling and repeated my last line - she was trying to remember what she was supposed to say next - she had an answer prepared for her, but she could not get to that answer amidst the fog of fear.

    I have in the past coached people in public speaking and the answer is to beast through your lines with a talk radio station turned up very loud - fear is very distracting and very like having that radio distracting one and one has to learn to overcome that.

    Soldiers in battle get the same thing - freezing in the face of abject fear and shock.
    she hasn't got a clue.
    And that is why she is afraid. She is hopelessly out of her depth.
     
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    IanSuth

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    That is exactly the point - but they won't do it. They'll leave everything in place, without reform or prioritisation, but 'trim' the existing budgets so essential public services suffer just as much as unnecessary, unwanted, or grossly inefficient services. Maritime reconnaissance aircraft anyone ?
    Case in point

    Yesterday a team mate of mine who works in the estates office at a large military establishment near Camberley posted a picture on our whatsapp

    They have changed riot training and as such a bunch of scrum caps that were available to anyone who wanted during said training are superfluous - they were going to be binned, most totally unworn. He has intercepted them, bagged them up and they will be offered around our rugby club then remainder given to Wooden Spoon a charity that send kit to developing countries (places like Wales ?)

    Go have a look at Gilbert Scrum caps and the prices - these are worth c£30 each and there are 180 of them !

    May be a small amount on it's own but illustrates the poor procurement and stock control
     
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    DontAsk

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    IanSuth

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    Abject fear (and stage fright) works exactly like a transient ischaemic attack.

    It has been a long time since I had stage fright, but watching LT, I saw the same signs the audience must have seen in me when I first trod the boards at the age of 18 (playing the king in 'The Tinder Box' panto).

    She was hesitant and stumbling and repeated herself for the same reasons that I was hesitant and stumbling and repeated my last line - she was trying to remember what she was supposed to say next - she had an answer prepared for her, but she could not get to that answer amidst the fog of fear.

    I have in the past coached people in public speaking and the answer is to beast through your lines with a talk radio station turned up very loud - fear is very distracting and very like having that radio distracting one and one has to learn to overcome that.

    Soldiers in battle get the same thing - freezing in the face of abject fear and shock.

    And that is why she is afraid. She is hopelessly out of her depth.
    It is what happens when 5 people have persuaded themselves if only people read their book and followed their instructions we would all be millionaires by this time next year - then they get a chance to try it out and by the ned of page 1 realise everyone is staring at them blankly knowing they are fools.

    (the only way we will be millionaires is by rampant inflation)
     
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    Jasondb

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    This is why I wanted Mordant rather than Truss she said she would respect Boris tax and national insurance changes until the next election. Truss is an ideologist along Thatcher lines and I don't think now is the time to be too cavalier.

    Apart from COV-ID Johnson got a lot of things right yet was too unpopular due to his character.

    Still Truss has put money into helping against fuel poverty though the markets did not like that as they thought it was unfunded due to other tax cuts.

    A rocky road ahead and may have to 'cash-in' my pension early, what a time we live in.

    Of course the proxy war in Ukraine is not helping and that is beyond our control due to Uncle Sam and since Brexit we need them on-side.
     
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    MBE2017

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    My brother luckily just fixed a 5yr deal on his huge house purchase and by the end of that he should be an equity partner with big £.

    Personally I am expecting a 20/30% correction on house prices over the next 1-2 years. Each time something inflationary occurs, such as the £65 billion recent spend, it takes around 1-1.5 years to filter through.

    For those beginning to get worried today, it might seem much worse in another years time. The big problem is every nation seems intent on ignoring the real issues, foregoing any real pain, until all other avenues are exhausted, causing much harsher pain overall.

    Most of today’s problems stem from the Covid bail out decisions, and having never addressed the problems from 2008. Now we also find pension companies massively over leveraged, unable to cover margin calls. This reckless gambling on people’s pensions should be illegal.

    What has happened? Another bail out, unlimited gilt purchases guaranteed by the BoE. Now that is going to teach them. Amazed this is still allowed to happen in the world, when will people decide enough is enough? When 20 million pensions actually disappear? The UK was within hours of that scenario the other day.
     
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    Bob Morgan

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    Looking a little more sideways, for a moment . . . Tory Party Funding from Construction and House-Builders will be another factor to consider. Notwithstanding the events of the last week or so, many developers are still reeling from the Gove/Gauke 'Tampering' with the Planning System - Gauke and Gove just walked away having ignored Civil Service Advice in terms of 'Operation.' Presently, many of the Division One House-Builders have sites WITH Approvals, that cannot be built on - That is all assuming that completed houses could be sold? Once again, Government has demonstrated its response of " . . . if we do not talk about it, the problem might go away!"
     
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    Personally I am expecting a 20/30% correction on house prices over the next 1-2 years. Each time something inflationary occurs, such as the £65 billion recent spend, it takes around 1-1.5 years to filter through.

    For those beginning to get worried today, it might seem much worse in another years time. The big problem is every nation seems intent on ignoring the real issues, foregoing any real pain, until all other avenues are exhausted, causing much harsher pain overall.

    Most of today’s problems stem from the Covid bail out decisions, and having never addressed the problems from 2008. Now we also find pension companies massively over leveraged, unable to cover margin calls. This reckless gambling on people’s pensions should be illegal.

    What has happened? Another bail out, unlimited gilt purchases guaranteed by the BoE. Now that is going to teach them. Amazed this is still allowed to happen in the world, when will people decide enough is enough? When 20 million pensions actually disappear? The UK was within hours of that scenario the other day.
    That got an up-vote from me - it covers at least 75|% (probably much more) of everything that has been going wrong for a very long time.

    One could add falling productivity, lack of proper pension arrangements (thereby forcing many people to invest in houses, instead of a SECURE pension) mismanaged Brexit negotiations, a wrongly structured health system, an over-complicated tax system that is loaded with loopholes, a completely mad political system and worst of all, government spending now accounting for about (nobody really knows the real precise figure!) 50% of GDP.

    But all (except that last point) are minor irritations for the UK economy. But gov. spending is now about half the economy but the Laffer Curve for the UK economy kicks in at about 30% and tops out at 35% and after that, starts to fall as the entire economy shrinks in real terms - and one realises that we are very far up that creek and the paddle floated off ages ago!

    Yes, Truss is right when she says that the economy must be restructured - BUT all restructuring must be done carefully and gradually.

    Shooting your mouth off to please the more biliously rightwing members of the Tory backbenches was always going to alarm the money markets. It may have brought joy and sunshine to the Colonel Blimps of this world, but it took minutes for the bond market to realise that T-bills were now unfunded and for the sell-off to begin.

    By the time the FT went into print on the subject with the famous shitstorm statement, 30-year T-bills had lost almost half of their value!

    Yes, you did read that correctly - long-term government bonds were heading rapidly towards becoming worthless when the BoE stepped in and began buying them up.

    Pension funds had to sell those bonds as a result of margin calls. It was not brokers and fund managers selling off to earn a buck, it was AI algorithms being forced into a sell-off because the pension funds had been forced into leveraged margin accounts to get the returns that those buying those pensions were expecting.

    Or as Ray Dalio said on the Today Programme "There seems to be a total lack of understanding by the British Government of how the money markets work."

    Or to quote our esteemed PM, Ms. Truss, "The quality of my cabinet shows the depth and breadth of talent within the Parliamentary Conservative Party today!"
     
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    WaveJumper

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    That got an up-vote from me - it covers at least 75|% (probably much more) of everything that has been going wrong for a very long time.

    One could add falling productivity, lack of proper pension arrangements (thereby forcing many people to invest in houses, instead of a SECURE pension) mismanaged Brexit negotiations, a wrongly structured health system, an over-complicated tax system that is loaded with loopholes, a completely mad political system and worst of all, government spending now accounting for about (nobody really knows the real precise figure!) 50% of GDP.

    But all (except that last point) are minor irritations for the UK economy. But gov. spending is now about half the economy but the Laffer Curve for the UK economy kicks in at about 30% and tops out at 35% and after that, starts to fall as the entire economy shrinks in real terms - and one realises that we are very far up that creek and the paddle floated off ages ago!

    Yes, Truss is right when she says that the economy must be restructured - BUT all restructuring must be done carefully and gradually.

    Shooting your mouth off to please the more biliously rightwing members of the Tory backbenches was always going to alarm the money markets. It may have brought joy and sunshine to the Colonel Blimps of this world, but it took minutes for the bond market to realise that T-bills were now unfunded and for the sell-off to begin.

    By the time the FT went into print on the subject with the famous shitstorm statement, 30-year T-bills had lost almost half of their value!

    Yes, you did read that correctly - long-term government bonds were heading rapidly towards becoming worthless when the BoE stepped in and began buying them up.

    Pension funds had to sell those bonds as a result of margin calls. It was not brokers and fund managers selling off to earn a buck, it was AI algorithms being forced into a sell-off because the pension funds had been forced into leveraged margin accounts to get the returns that those buying those pensions were expecting.

    Or as Ray Dalio said on the Today Programme "There seems to be a total lack of understanding by the British Government of how the money markets work."

    Or to quote our esteemed PM, Ms. Truss, "The quality of my cabinet shows the depth and breadth of talent within the Parliamentary Conservative Party today!"
    Bang on a complete lack of understanding of how the markets work, our puppet PM has not got a clue she's just doing whats she's told by the faceless "Think Tanks" who have now taken over government policy. I just wonder how much our out going chancellor made shorting the pound down last week, he must have been laughing his socks off at their incompetence.

    Going forward out PM appears to have no understanding of the impact this is going to have on the BOE and their decision on interest rates come November (markets factoring in 1.25% increase minimum) wiping out any help they thought they were giving the public. And I noticed in an interview she side stepped that question after a pretty long pause.
     
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    MBE2017

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    One could add falling productivity, lack of proper pension arrangements (thereby forcing many people to invest in houses, instead of a SECURE pension)
    I agree with all of the above apart from this, plenty of savvy investors I know have took average pension pot and turned them into decent income producing assets, increasing their pensions hugely compared to a standard annuity normally offered.

    Several have become multi millionaires, most have become very comfortable, the very odd one might have over reached themselves, but they can sell the odd house and ride out the storm.

    It tends to be the young 25-45 year olds rushing too fast who have risked everything on an ever rising market.

    Personally I would put my money in property any day of the week, even with what is due too happen. I am still looking to add to my assets, most people I know are as well.
     
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    I agree with all of the above apart from this, plenty of savvy investors I know have took average pension pot and turned them into decent income producing assets, increasing their pensions hugely compared to a standard annuity normally offered.
    So do I, but Joe Blow and Aunty Floe are usually not very savvy investors. The B2L crowd seems to divide up - those who know what they are doing and end up with a large portfolio of properties and those who haven't a clue and end up with one or two.

    In any market and at all times, even when everything seems overpriced, there will be bargains to be had - the property market is no exception to that rule. It's just that when things are overpriced, the bargains are harder to find!
     
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    Jeff FV

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    Gove is on manoeuvres, which makes me think Truss’s days are numbered. Like him or loath him, he is an astute political operator and, having written his own history in summer, is now positioning himself as the “voice of reason” in the Conservative party, possibly eying up the top job that has always eluded him. (Although I think a more likely outcome to Truss’s downfall will be Sunak being anointed the new leader, but Gove getting a big job in his cabinet)

    If Truss doesn’t U turn on the reduction in tax for top rate payers, this will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. A cabal of Conservatives are coalescing around Gove, looking to rebel and vote against this (and why not - could any MP look their constituents in the eye after voting through tax breaks for the richest, paid for by the poorest) and this will be the end of her premiership.

    u-turning on this will not necessarily save her, but if she doesn’t it will destroy her.
     
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