Knowing the mind of God

[cjd]

Anyone who is a Christian knows that they are no better than anyone else. It's not a case of doing good or "we're more righteous than you".

So it is NOT a general Christian belief.

Please listen the the ex Head of the Roman Catholic Church in the UK, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, say and then defend his statement that atheists are "not fully human".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbrfz...layer_embedded

It really couldn't be clearer. He's not speaking as an individual he's speaking as the head of a faith.

If you trawl this thread you'll see Hedgehog explain how people that are not bound by god's morality are a danger and a nice lady who tells me that she is 'more moral than I am' because she believes in god and I don't.

This last is telling because she argued for ages that by saying more moral she didn't mean she was any better than me.

Prejudice is not seen by the prejudiced - ask the BNP; it's only seen by those discriminated against and by a society that has had its consciousness raised to become attuned to it.

 

[FreeBusiness]

Correct, as you can not prove that god exists, the rest of the statement fails.

But even if you could show that God exists, you then have to show that 'he' is your god and not someone else's and that he offers us the best way of living or even that he cares one way or the other. Hopeless.



It's a general belief held by people of faith that atheists are less human and less moral. It's often said outright, like the good old archbishop and others on this thread, but more usually it's just intrinsic in their belief structure. By any normal definition that is bigotry.



I don't.



Bigotry needs to be challenged wherever we find it - I agree with you. However, I've had several discussions with fundamentalists here and they can't see that saying 'I am more moral than you because I'm a Christian' is an insult and a prejudice. One of them believes that atheists are only one cup of coffee away from rapists and murderers.

For my part, I think all fundamentalists are bonkers by definition. But at least I know it's an unpleasant thing to say.

One cannot prove anything, period.
One definitely cannot prove living right is best, except by experience, ie you have to live right to discover it is the best way to live.

It is not a generally held belief that non-Christians are less moral, it is definitely not a Christian belief. Christians by definition are less moral than everyone because we know better and do not live according to our principles.

I'm not responsible for what people who call themselves Christians say. There are 'Christians' who say there is no God and Jesus was just a good person, (if they even agree he exists).

Fundamentalists are bonkers acccording to the world:
1CO 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

 

[FreeBusiness]

Yes, I've never used bears to kill children to make a point.

I've never drowned the entire world and everything in it.

I've never sent my son on a suicide mission

Good point, though I assume by you saying this that you've never been responsible for saving a worls souls.

This is a rehetorical question: Have you ever criticized a companies excecutive or politician? Kinda easy isn't it.

One more question:

There is a train coming. You need to pull a switch to stop it but a blind deaf person is in the way and if you push him out of the way he will land on an electrified rail and if you do not the train will crash, what do you do? (And not be open to criticism)?

Robert

 

[Top Hat]

Good point, though I assume by you saying this that you've never been responsible for saving a worls souls.

This is a rehetorical question: Have you ever criticized a companies excecutive or politician? Kinda easy isn't it.

One more question:

There is a train coming. You need to pull a switch to stop it but a blind deaf person is in the way and if you push him out of the way he will land on an electrified rail and if you do not the train will crash, what do you do? (And not be open to criticism)?

Robert

Well if I'm an all powerfull god, I stop the train lift the blind deaf guy out of the way (and cure him, cause thats the kind of nice guy I am)

How is it moral to drown the world, kill children with bears

 

[FreeBusiness]

Please listen the the ex Head of the Roman Catholic Church in the UK, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, say and then defend his statement that atheists are "not fully human".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbrfz...layer_embedded

It really couldn't be clearer. He's not speaking as an individual he's speaking as the head of a faith.

If you trawl this thread you'll see Hedgehog explain how people that are not bound by god's morality are a danger and a nice lady who tells me that she is 'more moral than I am' because she believes in god and I don't.

This last is telling because she argued for ages that by saying more moral she didn't mean she was any better than me.

Prejudice is not seen by the prejudiced - ask the BNP; it's only seen by those discriminated against and by a society that has had its consciousness raised to become attuned to it.

Being the head of a faith is in Christian theology a contradiction, we are all equal under God, the sons and daughters of God A true Christian recognizes no 'head' but Jesus.

Also, a main tenet of faith is we have no right to judge, we are supposed to work on ourselves. In any case, sinner and saved are all equal before God, the believer is saved but through the mercy of God, not by anything the believer is or does.

We differ only in that the believer has put his faith in Jesus and the non-believer thinks he can tough it out on his own.

Robert

 

[FreeBusiness]

Well if I'm an all powerfull god, I stop the train lift the blind deaf guy out of the way (and cure him, cause thats the kind of nice guy I am)

How is it moral to drown the world, kill children with bears

I did not ask what you would do if you were God, that would be a stupid question similar to asking what you would do if you were a girl on her second date and the guy wanted to go to bed with you.

Morality is a human word so it is also meaningless to talk in human terms about God.

To paraphrase the question, what would you do as god, if people put themselves in a position where right and morality lose their meaning?

Remember, as god you have an entire world including the whole history of mankind to save and there is this problem with people who think they can refuse to act right and still thin they are entitled to a life without reprecussions.

Robert

Robert

 

[marchog]

Top Hat - What would you do if you were a girl on our second date and I wanted to go to bed with you?

 

[cjd]

Morality is a human word so it is also meaningless to talk in human terms about God.

You're not answering the question - just dodging all around it.

Please explain how God is acting morally when he kills children with bears?

 

[Top Hat]

Remember, as god you have an entire world including the whole history of mankind to save and there is this problem with people who think they can refuse to act right and still thin they are entitled to a life without reprecussions.

If I was all powerful god I'd find a better way than drowning the entire world.

Anyway I have no belief in god, he/she does not exist and religions are all clearly made up nonsense

 

[creospace]

Crikey this thread still going - not been in here (time out) for months

 

[FreeBusiness]

You're not answering the question - just dodging all around it.

Please explain how God is acting morally when he kills children with bears?

How do you answer a meaningless question?
You are telling me your values have to guide the world including God and then asking me why isn't God obeying your commands. The truth is there is no morality, no one has come up with a definition of what is right withour exceptions. If a rule is not universal it is not applicable.

Robert

 

[FreeBusiness]

If I was all powerful god I'd find a better way than drowning the entire world.

Anyway I have no belief in god, he/she does not exist and religions are all clearly made up nonsense

Perhaps then you could come up with a better system than the one we have now that lets millions of kids die every year because we are all too greedy and selfish to get rid of war, nation states and capitalism. This seems a far easier thing to do than to find a way to save the world from sin. Since you have made a study of all the world religions I have to bow to your conclusions - or was your decision based on it being the easiest conclusion to make?

Just wondering

Robert

 

[cjd]

How do you answer a meaningless question?
You are telling me your values have to guide the world including God and then asking me why isn't God obeying your commands.

Robert

Thou shalt not kill is one of the few things that your God is said to have said himself and had carved into stone. That is not my 'values' or my 'commands', it's your God's own words.

I'll ask again, why does God break his own rules? Doesn't murdering children make him immoral by his own standards?

The truth is there is no morality, no one has come up with a definition of what is right withour exceptions. If a rule is not universal it is not applicable.

No morality? You are joking?

However, I'll take that a face value and ask you why, if an all seeing all knowing god that cares for us exists, there is no absolute morality?

 

[YODspica]

If there is no God, who changes the water on the aquarium for the fish.

 

[stockdam]

Please listen the the ex Head of the Roman Catholic Church in the UK..............
If you trawl this thread you'll see Hedgehog ...........

Two swallows don't make a summer. You said "It's a general belief held by people of faith".........no it's not and I don't think any normal person would believe what you said. You've used two examples and no mater how you want to put it these are their own personal opinions which are not held by the vast majority of Christians. How many Christians do you know? Ask them what they think and then come back and tell me if you still think it's a general belief.

Your comments say a lot about your attitude towards Christians.

Finally, even if the Pope said it then it doesn't mean he is right and his views represent anything other than his views. He is as flawed as you or I.

 

[FreeBusiness]

Thou shalt not kill is one of the few things that your God is said to have said himself and had carved into stone. That is not my 'values' or my 'commands', it's your God's own words.

I'll ask again, why does God break his own rules? Doesn't murdering children make him immoral by his own standards?

'Thou shalt not kill'... think about it. Can you really make that into a universal principle with no exception.

Christianity is not about falling laws, you are talking about Judiasm, I am not a Jew. I follow Christ .. not Moses.




No morality? You are joking?

However, I'll take that a face value and ask you why, if an all seeing all knowing god that cares for us exists, there is no absolute morality?

Two points. If there is a morality we do not know it. To repeat you nor the most celebrated philsophers can come up with an appropriate moral code, the closest thing to a perfect system is in the NEW TESTAMENT. But this tells us to correct our own life and stop worrying about what others are doing because we do not know their hearts, certainly we do not know the heart of God.

We have been given choice, all choices have costs all costs have to be paid. Sin is externalizing costs. But there are no rules to guide us each case is looked at on its own merits.

Capitalism is based on greed and greed is about claiming as much as one can for oneself and transferring costs onto everyone else, it is the epitome of evil, it rests on the love of money.

If you wish to live 'morally' form a cooperative and concentrate on paying any costs you create.

Robert

 

[cjd]

If there is a morality we do not know it.

That's just rubbish; with the exception of psychopaths, everyone has morality, both instinctive and learnt - without it society could not work.

But you have ducked the question at least four times now, I guess you have no answer to how a god that kills children for name calling is behaving morally.

You say you believe every word of the bible - how can that be?

 

[cjd]

Two swallows don't make a summer. You said "It's a general belief held by people of faith".........no it's not and I don't think any normal person would believe what you said. You've used two examples and no mater how you want to put it these are their own personal opinions which are not held by the vast majority of Christians. How many Christians do you know? Ask them what they think and then come back and tell me if you still think it's a general belief.

I gave three examples one of which was a leader of the biggest faith on the planet - what more evidence could there be?

The thing you need to understand is that people that hold a prejudice do not necessarily know that they do - almost by definition. The UK definition of whether a minority group is discriminated against is whether they FEEL that they are, not whether the majority think that they are not.

Ask yourself this, do you think Alf Garnet thinks he's a racist?

Finally, even if the Pope said it then it doesn't mean he is right and his views represent anything other than his views. He is as flawed as you or I.

Ask Admagic whether that's true or not. Suppose he was speaking infallibly? (laughable though that is, I accept).

More importantly, when the leader of an organisation says things like that, he legitimises those view in others. He is telling millions of his followers that atheists are less than human and many will agree - and that is despicable.

 

[stockdam]

I gave three examples one of which was a leader of the biggest faith on the planet - what more evidence could there be?

The thing you need to understand is that people that hold a prejudice do not necessarily know that they do - almost by definition. The UK definition of whether a minority group is discriminated against is whether they FEEL that they are, not whether the majority think that they are not.

Ask yourself this, do you think Alf Garnet thinks he's a racist?



Ask Admagic whether that's true or not. Suppose he was speaking infallibly? (laughable though that is, I accept).

More importantly, when the leader of an organisation says things like that, he legitimises those view in others. He is telling millions of his followers that atheists are less than human and many will agree - and that is despicable.

You gave two examples but from that you make a sweeping generalisation and bigoted comment. Do you think you are a bigot........you tarred all people of faith with the same brush and that's the sign of a bigot. If I gave you two examples of Russians who thought child abuse was ok then would it be ok to say that in general Russian people condone child abuse? Or would I be accused of being a bigot?

Cormac Murphy-O'Connor also defended Michael Hill who was a child abuser.......are you going to claim that he did this with the backing of all his church? Are all Catholics child abusers?

Your comments are laughable. Tell me again......."It's a general belief held by people of faith that atheists are less human and less moral."

Laughable.

 

[Top Hat]

Perhaps then you could come up with a better system than the one we have now that lets millions of kids die every year because we are all too greedy and selfish to get rid of war, nation states and capitalism. This seems a far easier thing to do than to find a way to save the world from sin. Since you have made a study of all the world religions I have to bow to your conclusions - or was your decision based on it being the easiest conclusion to make?

Just wondering

Robert

Surely thats a problem for your god.

Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?

 

[Top Hat]

Question, which of these gods are made up by man, which are real?

Aphrodite
Atlas
Brahma
Frigg
Hades
Krishna
Kingu
Yahweh
Zeus

 

[FreeBusiness]

That's just rubbish; with the exception of psychopaths, everyone has morality, both instinctive and learnt - without it society could not work.

But you have ducked the question at least four times now, I guess you have no answer to how a god that kills children for name calling is behaving morally.

You say you believe every word of the bible - how can that be?

You have asked a question with only two answers. God is not moral ie not God, or God is moral and it is moral to kill children. This is your world. In my world it is not a meaningful question and so cannot have a meaningful answer. Children are killed all the time, they die all the time. Is this moral? What is morality? You tell me what is morality and then I can tell you if God killing children fits that (your)definition of morality. Is it moral to kill seals, or calves, or fetuses? It is easy to answer questions. It is easy to make snap judgements about issues especially when a person censures all the details and issues surrounding the incident. So if you think you can prove a point by asking such questions don't always expect an answer.

However, to humor you here is the best I can do: If it is absolutely and always wrong to kill children and God killed some children with absolutely nn reason which could be construed as sufficient and if what God does is able to be analyzed in terms of human values and there is such a thing as morality and someone can determine what constitutes a moral action and the killing of children is always absolutely wrong then we are all guilty of murder because we let it continue day after day when we could do something about it and this is the murder of children that will happen tomorrow, next month, next year and so on, not the death of children that happened in the past. But I guess we are so worried about correcting the morality of others, or just trying to make some obscure point, we can't be bothered to look at our 'sins of ommission'
Robert

 

[FreeBusiness]

Surely thats a problem for your god.

I'm not to sure what you think God is or what you think we are? It is so easy to fish out a few expectations and then condemn God (or someone else) that they are not living up to expectations. The British condemned the Americans for not fighting by the proper rules of war (which the British wrote).

We have a choice, we can sit on our arses and complain that God is not doing what we think He is supposed to be doing or we can correct our own failings. There is not other path, they can be summed up in the words responsibility and immaturity.

Perhaps it might be a good exercise to sit down and write a letter to God explaiing to Him all the things He is suppposed to be doing and while you are at it why not tell Him how this is to be done.

Have you ever considered that sins stem from the fact we have choice, for God to eliminate the ills of this world, He would need to eliminate their source in human arrogance, greed and hate, in other words He would need to eliminate choice because this allows us to complain about what everyone else should or should not be doing rather than correcting our own faults.

Robert

 

[Top Hat]

I'm not to sure what you think God is

I think god is imaginary, does not exist, a way for ancient peoples to explain the unexplained

 

[DCE]

Top Hat Can you explain what you think the Purpose of Life is using your imagination to the fullest?

 

[marchog]

Welcome back DCE! Bit nearer to the end times too. You must be excited.

 

[DCE]

Hi Marchog are you excited about the future?

 

[marchog]

On the whole yes. In fact I've just saved a starving baby if the last website I was on is to be believed. Now if your mate's going to be drowning everyone again I'll have wasted my loot. Please have a word.

 

[Top Hat]

Top Hat Can you explain what you think the Purpose of Life is using your imagination to the fullest?

Im not sure thats a valid question.

Whats the purpose of life for a bacteria?

Whats the porpose of life for a mouse?

Whats the purpose of life for a Chimp?

The purpose of life is to propergate genes.

Any other purpose is secondary.

What do you think the purpose of life is?

 

[DCE]

On the whole yes. In fact I've just saved a starving baby if the last website I was on is to be believed. Now if your mate's going to be drowning everyone again I'll have wasted my loot. Please have a word.

You can read his words yourself in the Bible at:-

Revelation 21:3

With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4*And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

What a wonderful hope for the future also the scripture continues:-

Revelation 21:5

And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true. ! I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free.

Did you notice its a free gift, of everlasting life, worth looking into.

 

[marchog]

Sounds good DCE. Are you sure it's free? Do I not have to do anything?

 

[DCE]

Sounds good DCE. Are you sure it's free? Do I not have to do anything?

Yes it tells you at John 17:3 in your Bible

(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

 

[marchog]

I dunno DCE, admagic made me an offer last week.....a good offer...

 

The purpose of life is to propergate genes.

Any other purpose is secondary.

What do you think the purpose of life is?

Then why arent you out all night bonking every femaile you see?

Proves you dont believe your own statement.

 

[FreeBusiness]

I think god is imaginary, does not exist, a way for ancient peoples to explain the unexplained

Now you are making him sound like the big bang theory ....
I wish I could make such a leap of faith, I guess I am too great a realist
Robert

 

[FreeBusiness]

Im not sure thats a valid question.

Whats the purpose of life for a bacteria?

Whats the porpose of life for a mouse?

Whats the purpose of life for a Chimp?

The purpose of life is to propergate genes.

Any other purpose is secondary.

What do you think the purpose of life is?

The puropose of life is life
Genes are the physical carrier of life but genes are not life
Life is choice
Choice creates value
Life has an economic aspect
Highest expression of life is in the creation of wealth, ie value
God is the thing with the highest value
Purpose of life is to choose God and worship Him by basing all choices, (valuations) on His Will/plan for us

Robert

 

[FreeBusiness]

Then why arent you out all night bonking every femaile you see?

Proves you dont believe your own statement.

High Five Admagic
Thats the first intelligent comment I've heard on this forum.

(Wish I'd said that)
Robert

 

[marchog]

High Five Admagic
Thats the first intelligent comment I've heard on this forum.

You expect too much from not-fully-humans. Are you in the same sect as ad?

 

[marchog]

It's not that intelligent. You don't have to breed to pass on genes.

 

[cjd]

If it is absolutely and always wrong to kill children and God killed some children with absolutely nn reason which could be construed as sufficient

Your God said absolutely 'thou shalt not kill' (I tend to agree with him).

So if god breaks his own rule, what does that tell us? That he is a lessor god? That he makes it up as he goes along? Or just maybe we made it all up?