Knowing the mind of God

[Deleted member 3454]

I watched about half of it but had to give up when it all became too much for me - it's just too hard to watch religion as showbiz...... All I can say is that it's not quite as horrible to see as a American evangelical event.

Thanks for watching and for your comments. Sorry to hear you saw it as "showbiz" - that was actually a normal service for us where the only major difference was that it was broadcast live.

The band you saw on stage do rehearse for a few hours every week and everything the church does is done well, which may explain the "showbiz" feel. The congregation was totally unrehearsed and the reactions you saw/heard were entirely genuine.

Thanks again for your comments.

 

[cjd]

The congregation was totally unrehearsed and the reactions you saw/heard were entirely genuine.

I'm sure they were. Can you explain why you think God wants you to worship 'him' like that?

 

[Deleted member 3454]

I'm sure they were. Can you explain why you think God wants you to worship 'him' like that?

Yes, I can!

In several places in the Bible we are encouraged to worship with trumpets, cymbals, dancing and clapping - have a look at Psalm 98, for example, or Psalm 149 or Psalm 150. Jesus himself talked about parties and celebrations in his parables and the service broadcast on BBC1 was a just that - a celebration. The church is so large that we meet on Sundays for celebrations and during the week in smaller groups to study the bible and discuss how we can use what we learn in our daily lives.

Contrary to popular belief God is not a boring old fart - he is a caring father. Different people choose to worship in different ways. I come from a Methodist background where we had what I call a "5 hymn sandwich" service - hymn, prayer, hymn, offering, hymn, preach, hymn, prayer and close that was timed rigidly. As I studied the bible and my faith grew I found this no longer suited me and I moved to a church that allowed a more liberated style of worship. Personally I find it uplifting and I love it, but I know and accept that it doesn't suit everyone.

 

[cjd]

Contrary to popular belief God is not a boring old fart - he is a caring father.

From my readings of the bible and religious history, God seems to be anything man wishes to make him. For most of the 2000 years since the birth of Christianity it seems that god was mostly a tyrant to be feared 'hellfire and damnation' etc.

But my question was a bit wider than worship as entertainment - I can see that everyone was enjoying themselves - more about why god needs to be worshipped at all?

 

[marchog]

Yes, I can!

In several places in the Bible we are encouraged to worship with trumpets, cymbals, dancing and clapping - have a look at Psalm 98, for example, or Psalm 149 or Psalm 150. Jesus himself talked about parties and celebrations in his parables and the service broadcast on BBC1 was a just that - a celebration. The church is so large that we meet on Sundays for celebrations and during the week in smaller groups to study the bible and discuss how we can use what we learn in our daily lives.

Contrary to popular belief God is not a boring old fart - he is a caring father. Different people choose to worship in different ways. I come from a Methodist background where we had what I call a "5 hymn sandwich" service - hymn, prayer, hymn, offering, hymn, preach, hymn, prayer and close that was timed rigidly. As I studied the bible and my faith grew I found this no longer suited me and I moved to a church that allowed a more liberated style of worship. Personally I find it uplifting and I love it, but I know and accept that it doesn't suit everyone.

At first that sounds very silly until I remember that the god of welsh rugby demands I sing and jump about etc and requires a suppression of critical thinking so that I may telepathically influence players - great uplifting larks that don't really matter unless it makes you hate english rugby fans.

Does the father like gays for instance? He seems to feel a bit disappointed with them - what does he say to you?

 

[FreeBusiness]

From my readings of the bible and religious history, God seems to be anything man wishes to make him. For most of the 2000 years since the birth of Christianity it seems that god was mostly a tyrant to be feared 'hellfire and damnation' etc.

But my question was a bit wider than worship as entertainment - I can see that everyone was enjoying themselves - more about why god needs to be worshipped at all?

God does not need to be worshipped, God needs nothing at all. What He asks/tells us is for our benefit.

In everything we have a choice. If we end up condemned it is through the choices we make - in the same way businesses fail. If we wish to take more than we give, destroy more than we contribute the economics of our life condemn us. Choice is fundamentally economic. Everything we choose has costs but many do not wish to pay them and so they live as if they can escape the actions of what they do. Look at the people who take drugs? People actually think they can somehow beat the reality of drug use.

The same with greed. Our economics is based on greed, the Bible tells us time and again the consequeces but as individuals and as society we think we can escape Gods rules.

His rules do not benefit Him, they are there for us. We can break them as we choose, it is nothing to Him because in the end - you reap what you sow.

Robert

 

[marchog]

God does not need to be worshipped, God needs nothing at all. What He asks/tells us is for our benefit.

In everything we have a choice. If we end up condemned it is through the choices we make - in the same way businesses fail. If we wish to take more than we give, destroy more than we contribute the economics of our life condemn us. Choice is fundamentally economic. Everything we choose has costs but many do not wish to pay them and so they live as if they can escape the actions of what they do. Look at the people who take drugs? People actually think they can somehow beat the reality of drug use.

The same with greed. Our economics is based on greed, the Bible tells us time and again the consequeces but as individuals and as society we think we can escape Gods rules.

His rules do not benefit Him, they are there for us. We can break them as we choose, it is nothing to Him because in the end - you reap what you sow.

Robert

Are you saying you follow the rules as written in the Bible?

 

[FreeBusiness]

Of course not, I'm human. I'm saying if I do or don't God is neither helped nor hindered. I do know I am better off when I keep a weather eye on them and I have seen enough people ignore them and not fare too well. There are also people who live reasonably well and do not believe in God. This is because the rules are good. Its not a matter of obeying God, it is a matter of living according to what as said are essentially the rules of economics - the economics of life including how we earn a living.

Robert

 

[marchog]

Of course not, I'm human. I'm saying if I do or don't God is neither helped nor hindered. I do know I am better off when I keep a weather eye on them and I have seen enough people ignore them and not fare too well. There are also people who live reasonably well and do not believe in God. This is because the rules are good. Its not a matter of obeying God, it is a matter of living according to what as said are essentially the rules of economics - the economics of life including how we earn a living.

Robert

You've read it have you?

 

[FreeBusiness]

I spent the first fifity years laughing at Christians and in my arrogance decided to disprove it once and for all so I read and re-read until, like so many others before me, realized it was actually true.

I now chuckle inside when I listen to non-Christians. Very, very few know the least thing about Christians, Christianity or the Bible.

Robert

 

[Top Hat]

... There are also people who live reasonably well and do not believe in God. ...

well at least I'm almost human

 

[cjd]

I spent the first fifity years laughing at Christians and in my arrogance decided to disprove it once and for all so I read and re-read until, like so many others before me, realized it was actually true.

I now chuckle inside when I listen to non-Christians. Very, very few know the least thing about Christians, Christianity or the Bible.

Robert

So your belief came from personal revelation?

On the worship thing, you say that "His rules do not benefit Him, they are there for us. We can break them as we choose, it is nothing to Him because in the end - you reap what you sow"

Do he have a rule that he must be worshipped and that's why it's done?

 

[Top Hat]

I spent the first fifity years laughing at Christians and in my arrogance decided to disprove it once and for all so I read and re-read until, like so many others before me, realized it was actually true.

I'm struggling though it at the moment, stuck in the old testament, and i have to say its incredibly boring, clearly an ancient people obsessed with oxen.

Hoping that the new testament will be better, who knows perhaps I'll find god (I do feel pretty well inoculated)

Should I skip to the new testament?

 

[cjd]

well at least I'm almost human

I'm afraid not, sorry.

atheists have been declared "not fully human" by the ex head of the Roman Catholic Church in the UK, the very reverend Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor. God bless him.

Hear him say it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbrfz...layer_embedded

 

[marchog]

Well some children have just teased me for my lack of hair. I'm looking for guidance as to what my response should be. Does the Bible have anything to say on the matter? I bet there's a good rule for this.

 

[cjd]

Well some children have just teased me for my lack of hair. I'm looking for guidance as to what my response should be. Does the Bible have anything to say on the matter? I bet there's a good rule for this.

Yes, it say "suffer the little children". I guess it's all in the interpretation - could go either way.

 

[marchog]

Yes, it say "suffer the little children". I guess it's all in the interpretation - could go either way.

I feel sure god would have something more direct to say on a matter of this importance. What would be an appropriate punishment? That's my moral maze.

 

[marchog]

Ok I'll do my own research. Thanks for nothing.

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0802/bears.html

Aha! I should tear them apart with she-bears!

 

[Top Hat]

Ok I'll do my own research. Thanks for nothing.

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0802/bears.html

Aha! I should tear them apart with she-bears!

We've done god sending bears to kill children, all perfectly moral according to the believers, though as a non believer, I couldn't follow the logic

 

[cjd]

I couldn't follow the logic

There was a very good and very obvious reason for that - if I remember, Steve was tying himself in logic and context knots again.

 

[cjd]

You're right baldy, the penalty for name calling is to be torn apart by she bears.

From The Holy Bible, 2 Kings 2:23-24:

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them"

"I am grateful that the Lord Jesus stopped this time at just one. Thank-you, Jesus!" - Pastor Deacon Fred

God loves us everyone.

 

[marchog]

You're right baldy, the penalty for name calling is to be torn apart by she bears.

That seems reasonable enough. We've all done it. I've found some more examples of Biblical justice:-

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/inj/long.html

Good rules indeed.

 

[FreeBusiness]

So your belief came from personal revelation?

On the worship thing, you say that "His rules do not benefit Him, they are there for us. We can break them as we choose, it is nothing to Him because in the end - you reap what you sow"

Do he have a rule that he must be worshipped and that's why it's done?

There is worship and there is worship. Some people settle for what is called praise. My idea of worship might be termed veneration, in the sense that one venerates a wise person - someone you respect.

We do a lot of silly things for a person we love. People express themselves in the way they think appropriate

Robert

 

[FreeBusiness]

I'm struggling though it at the moment, stuck in the old testament, and i have to say its incredibly boring, clearly an ancient people obsessed with oxen.

Hoping that the new testament will be better, who knows perhaps I'll find god (I do feel pretty well inoculated)

Should I skip to the new testament?

I sympathize with you. The Old Testament is boring and in basically more of historic interest. Jesus made moot the teachings of that time, it was for a particular people in a particular epoch.

People find God if they look for Him. Not everyone finds Him. I did not have a very good relationship with my dad and it actually impacted by ability to have a relationship with God for the longest time.

But everyone is different.

Robert

 

[FreeBusiness]

I'm afraid not, sorry.

atheists have been declared "not fully human" by the ex head of the Roman Catholic Church in the UK, the very reverend Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor. God bless him.

Hear him say it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbrfz...layer_embedded

This is probably not going to go down well but if you believe in God and God is all-knowing therefor has dictated the best way to live therefore belief in Him and obedience to Him is rational and rationality is chosing the right course of action and belief in what is real is rational and the right choice and God is real therefore belief in Him is rational and being human is rational then those who choose to believe in such a stupid thing as materialism are not technically human (assuming the above holds true).

Robert

 

[marchog]

I sympathize with you. The Old Testament is boring and in basically more of historic interest. Jesus made moot the teachings of that time, it was for a particular people in a particular epoch.

Robert

The recommendations for rape and genocide were certainly tedious. I can hear Paul Merton buzzing in with 'repetition!'.

I don't expect you follow the teachings of Jesus either do you? You have read what he recommends?

 

[cjd]

This is probably not going to go down well but if you believe in God and God is all-knowing therefor has dictated the best way to live therefore belief in Him and obedience to Him is rational and rationality is chosing the right course of action and belief in what is real is rational and the right choice and God is real therefore belief in Him is rational and being human is rational then those who choose to believe in such a stupid thing as materialism are not technically human (assuming the above holds true).

Well you got the first 9 words right at least ;-)

Apart from the erroneous logic - 'if you believe in god' is not the same thing as 'god exists'.

You also have to prove your propositions 'and is all knowing' then you need to show how those two statements lead to the conclusion that 'he's 'dictated the best way to live' etc etc.

But it fails at the first fence of course.

Anyhoo, the idea that atheists are not really human and are less moral (at best) than believers in any particular god fantasy is bigotry pure and simple - and one day us atheists will have as much protection in the law from prejudice and discrimination like that as coloured people have from racists.

I look forward to suing your arse all the way to hell and back

 

[cjd]

There is worship and there is worship. Some people settle for what is called praise. My idea of worship might be termed veneration, in the sense that one venerates a wise person - someone you respect.

To a sceptic like me, that just says that you make it up and do what you feel like. But the bible talks a lot about worshipping, it seems important to God that you do it. I can't think of any reason why a God would need that.

 

[FreeBusiness]

The recommendations for rape and genocide were certainly tedious. I can hear Paul Merton buzzing in with 'repetition!'.

I don't expect you follow the teachings of Jesus either do you? You have read what he recommends?

The trouble with talking to people with different beliefs is that we use two exclusive (and to some degree exclusionary) language. When I use a word it means one thing to me and a totally different thing to someone else and the discussion starts to go around in circles.

'Follow the teachings'? I am a fundamentalist. I believe every word of the Bible is true. Do you understand the teachings of Jesus, that is the question. The difference between Christianity and every other faith in the world, including materialism, is that all others tell you what to do, Jesus tells you to discover it.

Robert

 

[cjd]

I believe every word of the Bible is true.

Can you explain the she bears then?

 

[FreeBusiness]

Well you got the first 9 words right at least ;-)

Apart from the erroneous logic - 'if you believe in god' is not the same thing as 'god exists'.

You also have to prove your propositions 'and is all knowing' then you need to show how those two statements lead to the conclusion that 'he's 'dictated the best way to live' etc etc.

But it fails at the first fence of course.

Anyhoo, the idea that atheists are not really human and are less moral (at best) than believers in any particular god fantasy is bigotry pure and simple - and one day us atheists will have as much protection in the law from prejudice and discrimination like that as coloured people have from racists.

I look forward to suing your arse all the way to hell and back

I did not say God exists, I said if God exists then the rest follows. That is called a conditional statement so obviously if you do not accept that God exists then the conclusions are immaterial.

You are assuming that God does not exist and so, since God does not exist belief in him is bigotry pure and simple. Different assumption, different conclusion.

PS Don't take it personal ... its called a discussion.

PPS If you wish to read bigotry get an issue of Skeptic magazine and read how they talk about Christians, they go out of their way to insult, ridicule and all but swear and it is supposed to be a Rational based magazine ha ha

Robert

 

[FreeBusiness]

To a sceptic like me, that just says that you make it up and do what you feel like. But the bible talks a lot about worshipping, it seems important to God that you do it. I can't think of any reason why a God would need that.

Its all about choice and yes, in once sense that is exactly what you do but there is a right and wrong in this world. But each person and each situation is unique and no set of principles will ever suffice to cover every eventuality. The Bible teaches us some principles and some points but a lot of it is to instill the right attitude in the believer, not a set of rules to apply (incidently this is what separates Christianity from all other faiths, including materialism). All other beliefs tell you the formulae that you must follow, essentially they try and eliminate choice from your life. God Created man and the universe out of choice and this is what we are meant to exercise in our day to day living.

What is worship? This is for the individual believer to decide. As I said to me worship is veneration and this comes down to walking in His footsteps, doing what in my heart I believe He wishes me to do in this life.

Robert

 

[FreeBusiness]

Can you explain the she bears then?

I assume by this you really mean to ask why do bad things happen to good people. This assumes that people are 'good' and that God has or should eliminate all choice from the world (the universe is created out of choice, what we see as energy and call 'work' is choice manifest. A natural law is a repititious choice.
We eat food, is this 'right'. We destroy life to live.

A question that should also be asked is what would happen if we actualy lived as God wished us to - if we did not spew evil everywhere we walk? We ask why God does things it would be wiser to ask why we do?

If nothing bad ever happened would we buy insurance?

Robert

 

[Top Hat]

I assume by this you really mean to ask why do bad things happen to good people. This assumes that people are 'good' and that God has or should eliminate all choice from the world (the universe is created out of choice, what we see as energy and call 'work' is choice manifest. A natural law is a repititious choice.
We eat food, is this 'right'. We destroy life to live.

A question that should also be asked is what would happen if we actualy lived as God wished us to - if we did not spew evil everywhere we walk? We ask why God does things it would be wiser to ask why we do?

If nothing bad ever happened would we buy insurance?

Robert

No I think he was asking why god sent 2 bears to kill 42 children because they called someone baldy

 

[FreeBusiness]

Anyhoo, the idea that atheists are not really human and are less moral (at best) than believers in any particular god fantasy is bigotry pure and simple - and one day us atheists will have as much protection in the law from prejudice and discrimination like that as coloured people have from racists.

I look forward to suing your arse all the way to hell and back [/quote]

Belief and non-belief and morality are totally disconnected. There are tons of people more moral than many Christians. For example, one of the worst things you can do as a Christian is center your life on money and the vast majority of Christian do.

Christians do not base their hope on their ability or even willingness to act morally. We base our hope on the existence of Jesus.
Robert

 

[FreeBusiness]

No I think he was asking why god sent 2 bears to kill 42 children because they called someone baldy

Then the answer would be that He was making a point.

I assume your values and principles are more just and universal than God's?

Robert

 

[cjd]

I did not say God exists, I said if God exists then the rest follows. That is called a conditional statement so obviously if you do not accept that God exists then the conclusions are immaterial.

Correct, as you can not prove that god exists, the rest of the statement fails.

But even if you could show that God exists, you then have to show that 'he' is your god and not someone else's and that he offers us the best way of living or even that he cares one way or the other. Hopeless.

You are assuming that God does not exist and so, since God does not exist belief in him is bigotry pure and simple. Different assumption, different conclusion.

It's a general belief held by people of faith that atheists are less human and less moral. It's often said outright, like the good old archbishop and others on this thread, but more usually it's just intrinsic in their belief structure. By any normal definition that is bigotry.

PS Don't take it personal ... its called a discussion.

I don't.

PPS If you wish to read bigotry get an issue of Skeptic magazine and read how they talk about Christians, they go out of their way to insult, ridicule and all but swear and it is supposed to be a Rational based magazine ha ha

Bigotry needs to be challenged wherever we find it - I agree with you. However, I've had several discussions with fundamentalists here and they can't see that saying 'I am more moral than you because I'm a Christian' is an insult and a prejudice. One of them believes that atheists are only one cup of coffee away from rapists and murderers.

For my part, I think all fundamentalists are bonkers by definition. But at least I know it's an unpleasant thing to say.

 

[Top Hat]

Then the answer would be that He was making a point.

I assume your values and principles are more just and universal than God's?

Robert

Yes, I've never used bears to kill children to make a point.

I've never drowned the entire world and everything in it.

I've never sent my son on a suicide mission

 

[cjd]

Then the answer would be that He was making a point.

Well that would make sense. And that's how it reads, so if you believe every word of the bible, you also have to believe that God's morality is in question on this one - as many occasions were he appears to use what we would term disproportionate force in anger - even to the extent of committing genocide.

So how is it that explained?

I assume your values and principles are more just and universal than God's?

To the extent that I have never killed children with bears, sent plagues and famine, murdered other tribes, committed genocide, endorsed slavery, turned a good woman into a pillar of salt fornicated with my daughters, yes.

 

[stockdam]

It's a general belief held by people of faith that atheists are less human and less moral. It's often said outright, like the good old archbishop and others on this thread, but more usually it's just intrinsic in their belief structure. By any normal definition that is bigotry.

You have said some tripe in your time but this caps it all. Where do you get this belief from? It may be said by some people but in CJD's world then this means everyone?

Anyone who is a Christian knows that they are no better than anyone else. It's not a case of doing good or "we're more righteous than you".

So it is NOT a general Christian belief.