Impossible to go self-employed

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

I started my business Sept 2008 with only my last weeks wages to see me through. Insurances were paid after month 1. other invoices were on either 30 or 90 days.

Apart from 4 days with food poisoning and 1 week on holiday I have not had a day off in almost 18 months I work 7 days a week. But my business only trades 5 days per week. I have paperwork and research I need to do that i just dont have time to do during the week.

Your business will become kinda like a hobby (of sorts) It will become all you think about morning noon and night. You will wake up in the middle of the night in cold sweats because you think you have forgotton to do something. Then youll struggle to sleep.

One word: organization.

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

It can seem like that.
I know how bogged down in red tape you can - it makes your head spin!

But, that doesn't mean it cannot be done, it just means you need advice.
As mentioned, Business Link is a very useful place - free professional advice.

Also try the Citizens Advice Bureau for benifit advice.

The help is out there - don't try and do it all yourself, your head will explode!

Business Link looks good. However, Citizens Advice - I tried phoning them, there's never anyone in the office. They're open from 9am to 10am in my city and even then, there's no-one in the office, it's impossible to get hold of them!

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

But none of the "laws for web design" force designers to work for 16+ hours a week.

So, couldn't you do that* part time and still get benefits?

Steve

* Or whatever the hell this business is about - I don't understand.

Yes but I would only be allowed to keep the first £10 that I earn.

 

[Mpg]

One word: organization.

One word

Dedication

Another

Drive

Another

Determination

All of the above you will need

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

One word

Dedication

Another

Drive

Another

Determination

All of the above you will need

True. Which is why I'm still here, I wouldn't have bothered otherwise.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Yes but I would only be allowed to keep the first £10 that I earn.

Are you saying "I'd be working these hours and only be £10 a week better off"?

So?

Is the point of this business to supplement your benefits or to build it up to the point you can get off benefits and run it full-time?

Steve

 

[Mpg]

Ok +1 for sticking around.


You need a big list and work through from number 1 to number XXX

Set yourself smaller goals.

I want to have 50 drivers out there every day but thats mind boggling.

So i set smaller goals if i can increase my drivers by 10 per year i will reach my goal in 3 more years.

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

What amazes me is that no-one seems to have had experience of going self-employed while claiming income support, only via the tax credits route which I can't do.

Which kind of scares me, if I'm one of the very few people who go self-employed and continues to claim income support and I declare my income from work, I'm worried that they'll accuse me of benefit fraud - something which I was previously warned about here on these very forums!

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

Are you saying "I'd be working these hours and only be £10 a week better off"?

So?

Is the point of this business to supplement your benefits or to build it up to the point you can get off benefits and run it full-time?

Steve

Yes, I'd need to build up the income to the point where my income support would be £0, so I would be earning it myself instead and then build up from there.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Yes, I'd need to build up the income to the point where my income support would be £0, so I would be earning it myself instead and then build up from there.

So what's the problem? Why are you defining this as "impossible"?

Steve

 

[Mpg]

Yes, I'd need to build up the income to the point where my income support would be £0, so I would be earning it myself instead and then build up from there.

Then thats what you do.

Start up as a sole trader. If your claiming income support then that suggests there is an income coming into the household.

The 16 hrs per week is a grey area. If you only do 5-6 hrs of web designing and the rest is research then that prob wont be classed as work.

You need to speak to the benifits department. there are grants to get people off income support.

There are lots of options for you.

Your trading address can be your home.(mine is)

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

So what's the problem? Why are you defining this as "impossible"?

Steve

Basically financing the legal side of the business, legal contracts, etc. I can go ahead right now and just do it, the business itself is not a problem. But if any income I receive has to be declared and then deducted from my benefits then how am I going to get the money to finance the legal side of the business?

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

Then thats what you do.

Start up as a sole trader. If your claiming income support then that suggests there is an income coming into the household.

The 16 hrs per week is a grey area. If you only do 5-6 hrs of web designing and the rest is research then that prob wont be classed as work.

You need to speak to the benifits department. there are grants to get people off income support.

There are lots of options for you.

ok, good idea. Do you know if these grants would affect the benefits that I'm entitled to at the moment?

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

And can a council house be a trading address?

 

[Mpg]

Basically financing the legal side of the business, legal contracts, etc. I can go ahead right now and just do it, the business itself is not a problem. But if any income I receive has to be declared and then deducted from my benefits then how am I going to get the money to finance the legal side of the business?

You only put your accounts in once a year so you will have already spent that money. So not an issue.

Unless you actually pay yourself a wage then your not earning anything

Your accountant will work out how much profit has been made after the fisrt year. April and you dont have to pay the tax until the next Jan.

If you find that your making a killing then you can notify The BA and they will stop your IS and you have to pay back any extra payments. So keep an eye on your income.



Your trading address could be a caravan if thats were your trading from.
It doesnt matter whether its a flat or an office.

You dont need to have actual business premises.

I run a courier company with 15 drivers from my semi detached house.

If its down to image then you need to try to share some office space. I believe business link used to let you do that but that was a while ago.

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

Excellent, this is starting to sound a lot more feasible now. So if I received a grant which was used to cover the legal costs, does that mean those costs have to be recovered (plus other business expenses) before I actually make a declarable profit then?

 

[Mpg]

ok, good idea. Do you know if these grants would affect the benefits that I'm entitled to at the moment?

I'm not 100% but i doubt it they are grants for starting a business not for personal use.

 

[C3ntral]

1: Start the business off as a hobby. (sole trader)

2: Do work for people you know and give them an invoice.

3: you don't need Public Liability insurance, what do you think is going to happen? one of your website is going to fall on someeones head?

PL is NOT compulsary, howerever Employers is, but because it is only you thats employed, then you're really only breaking the law against yourself and as such yourself would be the only one to complain, and really, if you end up in this sort of position you should be checking yourself into a mental institute...

Check businesslink.gov.

4: So in conclusion you have no real startup costs...

5: The taxman is a reasonable soul, really, he is, you could reasonably say in court that you tried to become self employed, keep the money you earn from the business seperately in a different account (you can open one for free under the following way 'yourname T/A digital services') Keep a set of books, right up to date. so that you can easily produce a set of accounts for the taxman, if he should ask... The taxman can only take the amount he is owed, which is around 20% of your profit, they can't do anythign really bad to hurt you.... as long as you can prove that this business has not been of benefit to you (because you have made no drawigns etc).

6: your business sounds like its all computer based, you have a computer you are using to post on this forum therefore you can use that for your business.

7: go to business gateway

8: there may be some business access programs in your area, look for SIP areas (Social Inclusion Partnership) they run programs which can even allow you to keep your benefits whilst trying to start the business...

9: DO SOMETHING.

Its ONLY you stopping YOU...

Go for it... whats the worst that can happen?

 

[Mpg]

Excellent, this is starting to sound a lot more feasible now. So if I received a grant which was used to cover the legal costs, does that mean those costs have to be recovered (plus other business expenses) before I actually make a declarable profit then?

In simple terms

Your expenses get deducted from your income and whats left is profit.

If you dont need to pay back the grants(which is the purpose of a grant Vs loan) then Bonus.

 

[C3ntral]

Excellent, this is starting to sound a lot more feasible now. So if I received a grant which was used to cover the legal costs, does that mean those costs have to be recovered (plus other business expenses) before I actually make a declarable profit then?

I'm not seeing where these legal costs are coming from?

Why do you need contracts?

If you have a customer who wants a site designed or a service from you, then all you need to do is get them to sign a bit of paper which states their intention to pay you for the service you have quoted them for.

It could be hand written in crayon and would still hold up in court if what you're worried about getting paid...

You need to provide us with more details for what these 'legal' expenses are going to be for?

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

Thanks C3ntral, some good advice there especially about the taxman! So I would simply register as a sole trader within three months of trading.

Technically it's not ALL computer based and there is a physical side to the business but it doesn't require any kind of premises open to the public.

What about professional indemnity insurance?

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

I'm not seeing where these legal costs are coming from?

Why do you need contracts?

If you have a customer who wants a site designed or a service from you, then all you need to do is get them to sign a bit of paper which states their intention to pay you for the service you have quoted them for.

It could be hand written in crayon and would still hold up in court if what you're worried about getting paid...

You need to provide us with more details for what these 'legal' expenses are going to be for?

I would need terms & conditions, privacy policy for my own website and intellectual property contracts that allow editing of copyrighted audio material - basically I need a solicitor.

 

[Mpg]

Google sample terms and conditions.

Loads will come up

You dont need a lawyer to type up your terms and conditions.

Put a post in the IT section saying as a new web disigner what terms and conditions do i need.

That will get a response

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

Google sample terms and conditions.

Loads will come up

You dont need a lawyer to type up your terms and conditions.

What about intellectual property law and copyright?

 

[C3ntral]

Thanks C3ntral, some good advice there especially about the taxman! So I would simply register as a sole trader within three months of trading.

Technically it's not ALL computer based and there is a physical side to the business but it doesn't require any kind of premises open to the public.

What about professional indemnity insurance?

Professional Indemnitiy covers you for your own incompetence. for instance:

if my business was plugging in computers (which it is) and i was plugging in 500 pc's in an office (i wish).

Public indemnity would cover you for the electrical circuitry blowing up.

Professional would cover you for not beign able to plug the computers in right.


Another example is if you are a painter and are painting the outside of a building:

public would cover you for dropping a tin of paint on sum1s head

professional would cover you for using the wrong paint and it running off after the first time it rains! and the customer wants their money back or if you cant afford to fix it etc.

 

[TFGtv]

intellectual property contracts that allow editing of copyrighted audio material

Email me via my company's website and I'll give you the heads up on some of this stuff; it can be a minefield!

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

So it would be a good idea to have PLI then.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

ok, good idea. Do you know if these grants would affect the benefits that I'm entitled to at the moment?

Hold on! You haven't even bothered to ask about this at the benefits office?

You've never gone in and said "I'm sick of being unemployed, no-one seems to be willing to give me a job so I have an idea for a business. What support can you offer me?"

You've called this thread "Impossible to go self-employed" yet it's clear you've not even bloody bothered to find out what's possible.

One of the great things about this forum is that people are willing to help, buy only mugs waste their time trying to help those that won't help themselves.

So, tomorrow, get an appointment with your benefit office and talk to them about this. I bet you'll find out that half the obstacles you've been whining about today don't even exist.

Steve

 

[C3ntral]

What about intellectual property law and copyright?

What IP do you need protected?

Copyright you can simply set up an email address to email your copyrighted stuff to or you can post it to yourself and dont open it...

websites are generally copyrighted anyways, if you can ever find anyone thats ripped your site design that is...

dont worry about this so much, unelss there is an idea thats going to make you millions.

 

[Alanpowell]

A good entrepreneur tends not to spend years planning a business, they get their Market data, validate their business and jump in finding a way.

I started my first business -£25k in debt and in 9 months cleared my feet.

No money but a good business idea, why not look at an equity investor? Angels Den are one such company that will put you in touch with the investors direct; down site is the joining fee is about 700 just now.

Banks are out so this may be one of your only options. The other is possibly grants. Try j4b co uk (putting in the usual dots) and punch in your details. Register but don't subscribe, take the search results and google them - this way it's free.

If you don't mind me asking what's your business / Market?

Rgds,
Alan.

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

Hold on! You haven't even bothered to ask about this at the benefits office?

You've never gone in and said "I'm sick of being unemployed, no-one seems to be willing to give me a job so I have an idea for a business. What support can you offer me?"

You've called this thread "Impossible to go self-employed" yet it's clear you've not even bloody bothered to find out what's possible.

One of the great things about this forum is that people are willing to help, buy only mugs waste their time trying to help those that won't help themselves.

So, tomorrow, get an appointment with your benefit office and talk to them about this. I bet you'll find out that half the obstacles you've been whining about today don't even exist.

Steve

Actually I have but the staff haven't got a clue, they don't know anyone. Every time I speak to someone different they tell me something completely different. The staff simply don't know how it works themselves, they're useless.

 

[C3ntral]

So it would be a good idea to have PLI then.

Again, it depends on the exact things you are going to be doing...

if i code a site and the customer doesnt like it , i take it on the chin and redo it, or will tell them to feck off of they are being unreasonable, you can factor in deposits etc as well, this will be a suck it and see learning experience, not to be worried about when starting...

 

[Mpg]

Actually I have but the staff haven't got a clue, they don't know anyone. Every time I speak to someone different they tell me something completely different. The staff simply don't know how it works themselves, they're useless.

Yep a lot of them can be.

There are organisations that actually get paid to help you.
Someone else will let you know who they are if they have'nt already been mentioned.

Its not all doom and gloom but you do need a stiff upper lip old boy.

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

What IP do you need protected?

Copyright you can simply set up an email address to email your copyrighted stuff to or you can post it to yourself and dont open it...

websites are generally copyrighted anyways, if you can ever find anyone thats ripped your site design that is...

dont worry about this so much, unelss there is an idea thats going to make you millions.

I need permissions to use other peoples copyrighted audio material.

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

Yep a lot of them can be.

There are organisations that actually get paid to help you.
Someone else will let you know who they are if they have'nt already been mentioned.

Its not all doom and gloom but you do need a stiff upper lip old boy.

I figured lol.

 

[TFGtv]

I need permissions to use other peoples copyrighted audio material.

Yes you do. And you need to be fully conversant with the 1988 Copyright Designs and Patents act and understand what can be a fairly process in obtaining the appropriate licences.

IP management is one of the least well understood and most problematic aspects of producing any kind of media/internet product...

 

[Mpg]

I need permissions to use other peoples copyrighted audio material.

That just needs a line in you terms and conditions saying that by giving you the audio they are allowing you to use it.

 

[TheNewEntrepeneur]

So my concerns really have been narrowed down to website law which doesn't seem to be much of a problem, copyright and intellectual property rights, registering as a data controller and getting a PO Box address if necessary.

And then declaring and proving my income to benefits agency. What actually constitues proof of my income though? Are my accounts sufficient for that purpose?

 

[TFGtv]

Hold on! You haven't even bothered to ask about this at the benefits office?

You've never gone in and said "I'm sick of being unemployed, no-one seems to be willing to give me a job so I have an idea for a business. What support can you offer me?"

You've called this thread "Impossible to go self-employed" yet it's clear you've not even bloody bothered to find out what's possible.

One of the great things about this forum is that people are willing to help, buy only mugs waste their time trying to help those that won't help themselves.

So, tomorrow, get an appointment with your benefit office and talk to them about this. I bet you'll find out that half the obstacles you've been whining about today don't even exist.

Steve

Re read Steve's post. Take his advice...

I'll be blunt and say that in reading much of what you've written I get the impression you're working very hard to convince yourself this won't work......

So... Off you go, down to the Buroo tomorrow and see where they can point you!!

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Actually I have but the staff haven't got a clue, they don't know anyone. Every time I speak to someone different they tell me something completely different. The staff simply don't know how it works themselves, they're useless.

Then speak to the person who does know.

You seem very quick to blame the "system" and give up. If you want to be in business, you need to learn to take responsibility and make things happen.

I'm not seeing that quality in you, just an endless series of "yes, but what about...".

Steve