How to compete with rogues?

[Mark T Jones]

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/t...no-swearing-please.363355/page-2#post-2676173

Inspired by this thread - which highlights how decent estate agents are tarnished by the actions of rogues.

There are rogues in every industry - With experience you can generally spot them a mile off because the lines they trot out are actually predictable and ridiculous.

The favourites in my sector are 'rates from 4%' - (utterly meaningless) and 'approval in principle' (ie NOt an acceptance)

Over the years I have looked to compete in a number of ways

1. Join in (couldn't sleep at night - made me ashamed of my profession to even consider it
2. Educate / inform customers - remarkable difficult - it is quite surprising the extent to which business owners refer fluffy promises over hard facts.
3. Let it go. My current & ongoing stance is to give them the real facts and leave the door open for them to return. In reality this often means losing the first deal, but you have a far stronger stance on the second.

So, what is the standard crookery in your profession & how do you compete?

 

[AllUpHere]

As you mention, giving open and honest info and then leaving the door open for them to come back to you if things don't go quite the way they hoped is a powerful tactic.

I used to get potential clients tell me they were going to get their website designed first, but then might pay for some strategic marketing advice at a later date. No amount of explaining about putting carts before horses was going to convince them they were wasting their money. Anyway, as you suggested, I left the door open for them to return (which they did fairly frequently when they realised their mistake). Obviously there are those who never realise their mistake, but I really don't want them as clients anyway.

 

[tony84]

If you try to explain why someone is cheaper, to me it comes across as sour grapes. Both when it has been explained to me and when I am explaining to clients, I can hear myself.

I dont bother anymore, I just wish them the best and let them know I am here if they change their mind. People like to think they know best and do not like to be told they are cheapskates, so its an argument you are rarely going to win.

I can think of a few occassions where people have come to me and asked how much I charge, I have given them a figure and they have said x charges £x so can I match it/beat it. When I have said no and explain why my fees are more (ie I tend to specialise in the area I go after and I turn business away if I have too much on to ensure I am always around should they/the lender/solicitor or agents need me), they see the value. So rather than spending time slagging off others, conentrate on yourself and why you are worth the extra. You are never going to win them all so there is no point worrying about it.

On a side note, I can think of LOADS of estate agents I would not spit on if they were on fire. I would quite happily spit on them if they were not on fire though

I shall leave you with these quotes...

 

[Mark T Jones]

Thanks - great input

For clarity Tony, I'm not referring to people who are cheaper, but to those who openly lie about charges

As an aside - It doesn't happen a lot in our industry, but hidden extras is a big pet hate of mine - always puts me on my guard

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

This isn't entirely true - within specific industries... of course

For instance...

an MLA Locksmith will attend someone's property with UPVC doors always with the knowledge of what is happening to the door when attempting to secure at night by asking the simple questions. Normally re-alignment of the mechanism is required - it's about a 10- 30 minute job and should normally cost an hourly rate charge (we charge £60 + VAT per hour)

= Good Cheap AND Fast (in any variant).

"National locksmiths" the "big boys" who like to over charge would attend the site - suggest that the "lock" is faulty, and offer to replace the "lock" for an estimated charge of £200 + VAT

What they're actually doing is replacing the mechanism that does not need to be changed and re-installing your existing lock into the new mechanism.

We are lucky enough to continue to get repeat customers due to our honesty and work ethics... i.e. if it's not broken don't replace it.

Unfortunately though, the country is fast becoming a throw away world - a lot of industries are struggling because of this now... companies like Assa Abloy who is one of the main suppliers of locking products across the world have just implemented 7-12% price increases across the board of specific products which everyone in the Locksmiths trade are furious about - Assa Abloy products are not cheap at the best of times to be fair. #

Such price increases forces customers hands to move onto the cheaper throw away products.

 

[tony84]

Ahhh, gotcha. I see your point.

@Haunted Worlds £60+ VAT for 10-30 minutes work is cheap?
Thats between £120 and £360 an hour plus VAT.

Im not having a go btw, just pointing out that not many people get paid £60 for an hours work, let alone 30 minutes. I have called out a locksmith before now and it was more than that about 4-5 years ago. The funny thing is, being in Manchester, I know loads of people who could get in my house for free, I just dont think their pockets would be as empty as when they got in :/

 

[BTON Agency]

Great question, its a problem we as estate agents face time and again.

We have to worry about other agents.

1. Over valuing
2. Unfair contract lengths
3. Not being clear on fees / additional fees
4. Lying about market share
5. Fly boarding
6. Made up online reviews / testimonials
7. Poor service (impacts us in the chain not just "their" client)
8. Not providing the correct information to buyers i.e. Lease details.

Probably a host of others but these just popped into my head.

We have the same feeling as you

1. Join in - Can't beat them join them! - But like you i want better for my company and industry. You should not become the lowest of the low just to earn a few quid. Saying that it is hard not too when a large majority of the competition a number of the above or all!

2. Educate and Inform - My favorite as it is factual and does hold weight and improves reputation and understanding in others. Problem is as with the thread you highlighted a lot of people are "Armchair experts" and do not want to be educated.

3. Let it go - This is where we are also, we try and educate and inform, we believe we are honest and decent and conduct ourselves as such. We do get a lot of business on recommendation but would like more "new business" as the market is starting to turn (becoming more of a buyers market than sellers) we are going back to sellers that have been promised the world by our competition and they have not delivered.

But i am more than happy to hear any suggestion on how we can grow market share, continue to be ethical and offer an leading service.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Ahhh, gotcha. I see your point.

@Haunted Worlds £60+ VAT for 10-30 minutes work is cheap?
Thats between £120 and £360 an hour plus VAT.

Im not having a go btw, just pointing out that not many people get paid £60 for an hours work, let alone 30 minutes. I have called out a locksmith before now and it was more than that about 4-5 years ago. The funny thing is, being in Manchester, I know loads of people who could get in my house for free, I just dont think their pockets would be as empty as when they got in :/

Hi Tony

It is far cheaper than getting conned out of a full mech change that isn't actually needed.

Whether the job takes 10 minutes or an hour - some can be right buggers... especially when residents/tenants have practically butchered the door because they had no clue what was wrong... or in some cases - we've attended sites to find the rogue lockie has already been and caused more issues than there actually was... We're quite often used for repair work after dodgy lockies have been... it's quite amusing sometimes... other times - well, lets just say it's a disgrace to the profession what some folk will do to a door/locking product.

Plus that is our hourly rate - we charge that for the full hour just because the job doesn't take an hour doesn't mean that we should drop our prices - technically speaking of course it's a call out charge - Yes there are Lockies out there that charge a lot less - we've never professed to being the cheapest on the market however it's our expertise, professionalism and that fact that we're SIA, SSAIB and MLA (Insurance approved) - unlike some cheaper "rogues" out there.

We charge more for Safe Work... and I know that we're still half the price compared to a lot of the guys out there - we've got one chap on our books that won't get out of bed for less than £400 an hour

 

[The Byre]

Well, I work in that part of the media business which Hunter S. Thomson described as "A neon lit plastic money trench, where pimps and thieves roam free and good men die like dogs - but it also has a negative side!"

Dealing with rogues?

Don't get into debt.
Do it yourself.
Create equity for yourself and your company.
Never believe the hype.
Never give them credit.
Always go for the bird-in-the-hand.
Never work for nothing.
Never rely on promises.
Give people honest, straight-forward answers.
Stay away from cheats and the deluded.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Ahhh, gotcha. I see your point.

@Haunted Worlds £60+ VAT for 10-30 minutes work is cheap?
Thats between £120 and £360 an hour plus VAT.

On another note - we always here the following after doing a simple re-alignment

"Cheaper than getting a new door".

 

[Clinton]

Bad locksmiths and bad estate agents don't have a patch on bad business brokers. Your guys are amateurs in the con game. They are semi-skilled, blundering wannabe crooks who'll never amount to serious players. They'll never be able to take you for every penny you've got, take your house and make you bankrupt.

For that you need a business broker.

The Mirror has been running articles about them for years. The newspaper used to allow victims of these brokers to comment in the articles, but they lost their nerve after a few dozen threatening letters from lawyers who were acting for business brokers. Fortunately, I saved some of those user comments and posted them on my site.

How do the good guys compete with them? The ones I know have stopped advertising, stopped SEO and focus their efforts on networking with professionals who can drive business to them - trusted professionals such as accountants, lawyers etc.

 

[Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon]

There are loads of people out there who class themselves as "Excel Experts" because they were the "go to Excel guy" in their office. They end up selling their services on Fiverr and PeoplePerHour for a lot less than I charge. However, going by people who I know who have used them, their quality of work leaves a lot to be desired.

At first I tried to compete with them on price but I just ended up being a busy fool. So instead I opted to just ignore them and I have never looked back. 80% of my business is now repeat business and my reputation gets through doors they could never get through. Rouges and bad workmanship builds up a bad reputation and those people end up fighting for every bit of NEW business they can find. They cant trade on repeat business and word of mouth like you can - it is a big advantage that you should take advantage of

 

[DavidWH]

There are heaps of companies doing what we do, some are rogues, some are just disorganised, then we have the well equipped franchises.

We compete by not being the cheapest, and we're not the most expensive, by being organised and doing what we say we will.

The number of customers who come to us after trying other companies, they've not had proofs, turned up to have vans signed up and they've turned them away, and by charging what we do, we don't mind working late to get it done.

It's not the quickest way to build up the business, but we have some good customers, and profitable work, without being busy fools like others.

 

[UKSBD]

The worst ones aren't the out and out rogues, but the reputable looking ones who have rogues working on their behalf and who they turn a blind eye to.

 

[Ian J]

So, what is the standard crookery in your profession & how do you compete?

We both operate in the business finance market and the major competitors are those broking outfits run by insolvency practitioners who will only place their clients with those factoring companies that reciprocate with lucrative insolvency work. Not exactly the crookery that you were asking about but not in the clients best interests either.

Another sneaky trick by some brokers will be to take an enquiry and then before telling the prospect who they recommend they will contact the factoring company first to ensure that they haven't had the enquiry from someone else. If they have they move on to the next factor - again acting in their own interests and not the cleint

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

The worst ones aren't the out and out rogues, but the reputable looking ones who have rogues working on their behalf and who they turn a blind eye to.

Which = bad Management and the only folk to blame for that are the owners of the company - thus means that their company is the rogue - the staff are just doing as they're told... including subbies.

 

[Gecko001]

The answer is do not compete with rogues. Compete with only people in your sector who are not rogues. In fact consider the rogues in a completely different sector altogether. Yes perhaps you are losing custom to them, but so is everybody in your sector. Will the rogues be there forever? In some sectors, I am afraid that they will be. In others they will come and go.

 

[Jaymac-safety]

OK, so I generally reflect and take more interest in posts than posting my own, but I thought i must add my ten pence worth so here goes.
I work in the Fire Safety sector, generally on the risk assessment and extinguisher side of things, and like most other industries it has its fair share of cowboys. Time and time again i go out to sites and hear stories that used to shock me and I feel honest firms are fighting an uphill battle.
People like cheap is the driving factor, and to a certain degree quality does cost. When setting up our company we tried to find a balance of good service, quality products at a FAIR rate not a cheap rate. This led to excluding certain potential customers who bought solely based on cost.
Cheaper companies will always be out there, I had a customer request a quote for servicing of 20 extinguishers around £100 with us, only to get a quote from a competitor for the same job at £30. You may say sour grapes, their cheaper than you! but when you do the math, engineers time 4 hours including travel, signing in, the job, paperwork. Fuel, Parking, Insurances,and the list goes on. The only way we could compete would be to take short cuts ie spent less time carrying out the service inspection, wipe&sign the extinguisher but not go through the prescribed service as you should. This wasnt something we were prepared to do.Thankfully the majority of our customers understand this but i do have to spell it out like this, if only to get my point across. There will always be those that want the cheapest and if thats the mindset theres plenty of rubbish extinguishers available on ebay and plenty more cowboys who will quote you barely minimum wage to service them for you .... but its cheap. And that feeds the problem!

 

[MBE1]

As Gecko001 pointed out, just don't think about them or try to compete.

All industries has it fair share of rogues, a decent company simply has to concentrate on it's own offer and accept that there will always be clients looking to cut corners and costs who will use them, they tend to be the most awkward clients who want everything for nothing and complain about everything as well.

Stick to what you do, do it right and concentrate on your own business is the only advice I could offer.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

@Jaymac-safety

I totally feel your pain!

The amount of times we've been asked to justify our prices and charges...

We have a retail shop for non-trade and non-account customers, all our prices are marked up at a retail price... when a trade customer comes in they get a 10% discount on majority of products, when an account customer comes in they get a 15% discount on majority of products... yet lately customers are asking for non-stock items, it's extremely random so it's not as if we'll even consider stocking those items.

We've just done a quotation for fencing for a place of worship, they insisted we completed the whole perimeter, when we technically didn't have too, only the areas subject to the public carpark and one end of the building, the other end was already covered by railings... that area alone added a further £2000 to the quotation, yet the company who got the order was £1000 cheaper than us... and DID NOT cover the area that we were asked to cover... stupid is eh?

I build master keyed locks on a number of ranges of locking products, from euro cylinders to padlocks to locker locks... some customers think I'm taking the mick when I tell them how insecure their existing lock actually is, until I show them on my counter display unit... then they're asking me why my lock is much more expensive... when in reality, if they went to the likes of B&Q and bought a Yale cylinder they're paying from £20 - £50 each... mine are only £26.50 + VAT and they're restricted to the customer and can have numerous locks on the same key... You can't get that from B&Q!

My advice to everyone who's being beaten by cheaper companies out there... stick to your guns, the customer will eventually see reason.

 

[The Byre]

Over the years I have looked to compete in a number of ways

1. Join in (couldn't sleep at night - made me ashamed of my profession to even consider it
2. Educate / inform customers - remarkable difficult - it is quite surprising the extent to which business owners refer fluffy promises over hard facts.
3. Let it go. My current & ongoing stance is to give them the real facts and leave the door open for them to return. In reality this often means losing the first deal, but you have a far stronger stance on the second.

So, what is the standard crookery in your profession & how do you compete?

Part of the world I inhabit was once, rather brilliantly described as "A shallow, neon-lit, plastic money-trench, where pimps, murderers and thieves roam free and good men die like dogs. But there is also a down-side!"

Trust me - real estate has nothing on the entertainment industry, when it comes to having to wade through a sea of liars, cheats, psychopaths, child molesters and thieves.

One learns over the years to develop a sixth sense - an ability to spot what my mother used to call a 'wrong one' or just 'false' pretty quickly.

One of the consequences of having to deal with so many crooks, is that one tends to only deal with people you know and have learnt to trust. Another consequence, is that one goes on achievement only. Too many people are (to use a great cockney expression) "All mouth-and-trousers!" They talk a good talk - but one tends to want to see the colour of their money.

Around this sea of deception, there is an even larger sea of deluded hopefuls. Some have money (but of course, not for long!) and some are just dreamers.

Around this sea of delusion, there are the parasites. These are government officials and quango-staff that 'advise' on the industry. They are also the third-rate universities, colleges and private schools and all their staff that hold out the hope of a career in the industry, as if it were plumbing or accountancy.

How does one deal with all that corruption and deceit?

By ignoring it all and just concentrating on the job you are doing - and, of course, keeping well away from the 'wrong ones' and refusing to have anything to do with them and also refusing to have anything to do with people who do business with them.

Corruption is infectious and a fish rots from the head!