How much should I be paying my accountant?
- Thread starter shaunatsf
- Start date
lol - poor David. He's on a hidin' to nothing!
Quick open question:
Should a first set of trading accounts, where dormants have been submitted previously, be logged as "first accounts" (ie with no comparative figures) on the Companies House online filing? Or should I put a whole set of nil comparatives throughout? This one has got me before, but I can't remember the right answer.
Quick open question:
Should a first set of trading accounts, where dormants have been submitted previously, be logged as "first accounts" (ie with no comparative figures) on the Companies House online filing? Or should I put a whole set of nil comparatives throughout? This one has got me before, but I can't remember the right answer.
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Was the right answer! Thanks J, your logic worked. 
Someone ought to do something about that damd template at Cos House - doesn't even cater for FRSSE 2008 accounts yet. Not as a standard option, anyhow. Grrr
Only one set of accounts to finish and one payroll to go, no sauce and not much relish! Chop chop!
Someone ought to do something about that damd template at Cos House - doesn't even cater for FRSSE 2008 accounts yet. Not as a standard option, anyhow. Grrr
Only one set of accounts to finish and one payroll to go, no sauce and not much relish! Chop chop!
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- Original Poster
- #85
I have unfortunately been exceptionally busy today and so haven't had a chance until now to actually look at the responses to my question. I must admit by the end of page nine of the reply's I had kind of forgotten what the question was
I am not sure whether i should respond with something relating to the initial question or respond to the reply that had something to do with looking at the mantle piece while poking the fire but my business head (or what is now left of it at 6.25pm on a Friday evening) has told me to stick with the question.
To give you an idea (and I am not the accountant, although I do see some sort of course in my future, any ideas appreciated especially online courses). At the end of the year we provide our accountants with the end of year from sage, all data in sage is checked and double checked on a weekly and then monthly basis to ensure they match up with the bank statements and our internal order/po/inventory system. We provide complete and orderly copies of all our bank statements, po's, invoices with all back up attached including delivery/collection notes for goods and the date and method of payment on the back of each invoice. We do our own VAT returns, payroll bank rec, and end of year stock.
Our end of year is the 31st of December and all materials are presented to the accountant by the middle/end of February (this is mainly because some of our invoices for purchase made in December are not sent until end Jan/ begining of Feb).
As previously mentioned I am not an accountant which I am sure much of what I have written above has already told you but I'm currently being charged around £4000 - £4500 a year. I think this is quite high.
I have asked for a breakdown from my accountant what the payment covers and I am hoping he will get back to me soon, but is there anything else we could be doing in house that would lower this amount, taking into account that I do have a person working part time that does the accounts so when you add her wages to the figure above I think on half a million turnover that is exceptionally high.
Dare I ask what your responses are to the above? Its not that I think you are all nuts (well maybe a little) but you do have to ask the question who spend £90 on a few slices of lasagne and a couple of lettuce leaves
Thanks for the entertainment, it does help on a friday night when you are knackered.
SS
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Ouch! Shop around.
Dare I ask what your responses are to the above? Its not that I think you are all nuts (well maybe a little) but you do have to ask the question who spends £90 on a few slices of lasagne and a couple of lettuce leaves
SS
Sounds as though we've both been ripped off :redface:
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well glad to see that you don't mind us accountants having a bit of Friday fun.
If you re OK with it I can get someone to give you a quote based upon the info provided?
Would you drop me a PM with your email address if you would like us to look at it. No problem - if I don't here from you.
We are all qualified accountants (and some are certified in more ways than one!)
If you re OK with it I can get someone to give you a quote based upon the info provided?
Would you drop me a PM with your email address if you would like us to look at it. No problem - if I don't here from you.
We are all qualified accountants (and some are certified in more ways than one!)
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Hi, I'm not an accountant but if you are doing all the book keeping, wages and vat returns yourself and you are certain that you are doing it correctly and it's all reconciled etc then surely there isn't much for the accountant to do and shouldn't be charging all that, I would definitely contact Elaine at cheap accounting for a quote.
Lianne
Lianne
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Hi,
You have many options and one of them is Outsourcing your accounts to a freelancer. In this way you will get the accounts done at a cheap cost. If you use local accountants they willl charge about £20 per hour. But using a freelancer will reduce your cost less than half.
I can give you my services. I have three years of experience and i m ACCA. I am located in Pakistan but my whole expeince is about preparing accounts for Uk businesses.
You have many options and one of them is Outsourcing your accounts to a freelancer. In this way you will get the accounts done at a cheap cost. If you use local accountants they willl charge about £20 per hour. But using a freelancer will reduce your cost less than half.
I can give you my services. I have three years of experience and i m ACCA. I am located in Pakistan but my whole expeince is about preparing accounts for Uk businesses.
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It's certainly true around here that a majority of work performed by accountants is off-shored to India, Pakistan, and elsewhere. Often, the accountant doesn't tell you this, but it's how they compete. Why keep costs high for the more mundane work when less costly approaches are available? Pay the higher rates when you need complicated or specialized help.
Whether or not this is true in Britain, I don't know; I'd be surprised if it doesn't become the norm over time. It's like everything: For straightforward mass-market services, outsource to get better rates; focus your own time on those customers willing to pay a premium for specialized or personalized service.
Whether or not this is true in Britain, I don't know; I'd be surprised if it doesn't become the norm over time. It's like everything: For straightforward mass-market services, outsource to get better rates; focus your own time on those customers willing to pay a premium for specialized or personalized service.
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Wow, it certainly seems like a good idea in principle from the couple of websites I've visited but most sites seem to offer prices by the hour, with a minimum monthly commitment? I guess this would be more attractive if there were fixed fee services for all types of accounting.
What you're saying makes sense to me though.
In fact, I would imagine that some of the cheaper online practices outsource already (which would make it easier to understand their cheap prices).
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W
Williams lester
Well, I can confirm that we never outsource, either to the sub-continent or elsewhere. All our work is carried out in-house by our own team.
I have personal experience (whilst with a previous employer) of work outsourced to India. The quality we received back was extremely poor quality unless the descriptions of items was very precise.
I have personal experience (whilst with a previous employer) of work outsourced to India. The quality we received back was extremely poor quality unless the descriptions of items was very precise.
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Sounds a terrible idea to me both in theory & in execution. The processing of transactions that can be done by "outsourcing" is a very small part of any accounts prep. job and represents a fraction of the bill.
I will retire from the profession and make a living playing the piano in a knocking shop (and I can't play) before I would even consider doing this.
I will retire from the profession and make a living playing the piano in a knocking shop (and I can't play) before I would even consider doing this.
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But it is worrying when even IRIS are now pushing outsourcing as the way to go. Thank God I've already retired albeit not to the piano in a knocking shop .. more to a kennels
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We piloted outsourcing using a firm of Indian Chartered Accountants for cloud bookkeeping. Three things happened:
1 After a few weeks they upped their hourly rates from £7 to £9
2 The exchange rate moved against us - they had to be paid in US dollars
3 Their trainess worked at somewhere between a third to one half the speed of a UK bookkeeper.
Add to that the hassle of very early morning starts to keep workflow going - yes, yes they charged for sitting around - plus their down-time issues, and the whole thing was untennable. The other thing that struck me is that most Indian outsourcers seem to be more attuned to USA taxes and GAAP.
For any firms thinking of outsourcing outside of the EEC, you will have to jump through a data protection hoop of getting your (Indian) outsourcers to complete a data protection assessment to UK data controller standards - alternatively for accountants and anyone else exporting others' data then insert a clause into your t&cs to obtain the customer's agreement to exporting their data outside of the EEC. Of course, nobody much reads t&c smallprint, so you have the ethical issue of whether to actually tell your clients their data is going to the sub-continent.
I can see the point of the DPA requirement: for anyone that has ever visited a third world country - yours truly has been to some very poor places where many people exist below the breadline in hovels: Tunisia; Trinidad; and Wales - then you will know about poverty and the rich/poor divide. I was very uncomfortable that the people we were paying Manish, our Indian CA, £9 an hour for themselves received a salary of a quid or two a day. The temptation for them to mis-use say credit card information or anything else sensitive must be enormous.
I've heard of others making outsourcing to India work. But at the end of the day, if your company t/o is £500k you should put aside a certain budget for accounts and tax work. If you want that done as cheaply as possible then India might be the place. But it comes with the above caveats.
1 After a few weeks they upped their hourly rates from £7 to £9
2 The exchange rate moved against us - they had to be paid in US dollars
3 Their trainess worked at somewhere between a third to one half the speed of a UK bookkeeper.
Add to that the hassle of very early morning starts to keep workflow going - yes, yes they charged for sitting around - plus their down-time issues, and the whole thing was untennable. The other thing that struck me is that most Indian outsourcers seem to be more attuned to USA taxes and GAAP.
For any firms thinking of outsourcing outside of the EEC, you will have to jump through a data protection hoop of getting your (Indian) outsourcers to complete a data protection assessment to UK data controller standards - alternatively for accountants and anyone else exporting others' data then insert a clause into your t&cs to obtain the customer's agreement to exporting their data outside of the EEC. Of course, nobody much reads t&c smallprint, so you have the ethical issue of whether to actually tell your clients their data is going to the sub-continent.
I can see the point of the DPA requirement: for anyone that has ever visited a third world country - yours truly has been to some very poor places where many people exist below the breadline in hovels: Tunisia; Trinidad; and Wales - then you will know about poverty and the rich/poor divide. I was very uncomfortable that the people we were paying Manish, our Indian CA, £9 an hour for themselves received a salary of a quid or two a day. The temptation for them to mis-use say credit card information or anything else sensitive must be enormous.
I've heard of others making outsourcing to India work. But at the end of the day, if your company t/o is £500k you should put aside a certain budget for accounts and tax work. If you want that done as cheaply as possible then India might be the place. But it comes with the above caveats.
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Well if the consent is tucked away in the t&cs you sign (or push a button to accept if done online) then you've had your notification. I've read threads (not on UKBF) debating that ethical issue - do you actually point out to your clients that their work is being exported (yes, yes, we did with our pilot; but not everyone does that).
Alternatively, if an accountant (or bookkeeper) gets the Indian outsourcer to conform to DPA Data Controller standards (which frankly are neither that strict nor for that matter strictly policed) then there's no legal requirement to obtain a client's consent at all. Worrying, isn't it?
Alternatively, if an accountant (or bookkeeper) gets the Indian outsourcer to conform to DPA Data Controller standards (which frankly are neither that strict nor for that matter strictly policed) then there's no legal requirement to obtain a client's consent at all. Worrying, isn't it?
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WG Thanks for explaining that for the likes of me to understand easily
and just to support what you say I know of accountants who do this but don't tell their clients as they don't need to, so presumably the Indian centre has gone through DPA
how does this work with professional indemnity? Is it the accoutant in the UK that bears the risk?
and just to support what you say I know of accountants who do this but don't tell their clients as they don't need to, so presumably the Indian centre has gone through DPA
how does this work with professional indemnity? Is it the accoutant in the UK that bears the risk?
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Wotcha Max, what you doing up this late?
PII can be tricky. We had our insurance cover amended' The firm we trialled with in India were CAs so were allegedly covered, but I wouldn't have fancied our chances in an Indian court. I have a friend who worked there recently. Whilst driving his company car he knocked a guy off his motor-bike - no crash helmet of course, and the biker ploughed head first into a tree. A roadside monetary settlement was hastily arranged with the biker's friends - a few quid, as the average wage is less than a quid a day - who then dragged the semi-conscious biker away on the back of a truck. My friend thinks he probably died later, and was v. annoyed that we all laughed at his tale. Indian courts - no thank you!
PII can be tricky. We had our insurance cover amended' The firm we trialled with in India were CAs so were allegedly covered, but I wouldn't have fancied our chances in an Indian court. I have a friend who worked there recently. Whilst driving his company car he knocked a guy off his motor-bike - no crash helmet of course, and the biker ploughed head first into a tree. A roadside monetary settlement was hastily arranged with the biker's friends - a few quid, as the average wage is less than a quid a day - who then dragged the semi-conscious biker away on the back of a truck. My friend thinks he probably died later, and was v. annoyed that we all laughed at his tale. Indian courts - no thank you!
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Clients need quality work. They meet partners or managers for the finalisation of accounts not with the operating staff. And if you are asking about the quality then for your information one of the top 15 Uk firms is going to outsource its work to third world country. They have closely monitored the performance of the outsourcing firm and after an year they decided to outsource their work because no queries arise relating to quality. And the rate of this firm is also the same for the last 3 years, no increase at all.
Thats why i m looking for the work from Uk accountants or businesses because its not just we send you the work and you pay and that;s all. For each assignment there is a meeting after completion and final queries arise which we discuss with our client and then we finalise the accounts and tax. No question about poor quality after this process also if we provide poor quality work then we loose our cient.
Sooner this will be very common in UK because sometime people criticise things very rigidly but then they start following them when they saw big guns are getting benefits from it.
Thats why i m looking for the work from Uk accountants or businesses because its not just we send you the work and you pay and that;s all. For each assignment there is a meeting after completion and final queries arise which we discuss with our client and then we finalise the accounts and tax. No question about poor quality after this process also if we provide poor quality work then we loose our cient.
Sooner this will be very common in UK because sometime people criticise things very rigidly but then they start following them when they saw big guns are getting benefits from it.
WG Thanks for explaining that for the likes of me to understand easily
and just to support what you say I know of accountants who do this but don't tell their clients as they don't need to, so presumably the Indian centre has gone through DPA
how does this work with professional indemnity? Is it the accoutant in the UK that bears the risk?
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Thanks WG... I'm not laughing at your tale honest I'm interested though whether it is a legal requirement to change PII as the client takes up their loss with the accountant they have entered into a contract with or whether it is a to-be-on-the-safe-side choice where legally the Accountant could/would say to take it up with the sub-contract agency. Any idea where I would go to research this as I am interested in covering this for an article with www.find-me-an-accountant.com and for me to ask accountants certain questions if I know they offshore bookkeeping work already.
To ayaz786amd = you completely misunderstood my post which was nothing to do with quality of work and to do with data security and UK laws... would you like to answer this point?
PS - WG = Do you remember many moons ago you suggested a "dating agency approach" to finding an accountant? ... well, now it's live
I'm interested though whether it is a legal requirement to change PII as the client takes up their loss with the accountant they have entered into a contract with or whether it is a to-be-on-the-safe-side choice where legally the Accountant could/would say to take it up with the sub-contract agency. Any idea where I would go to research this as I am interested in covering this for an article with www.find-me-an-accountant.com and for me to ask accountants certain questions if I know they offshore bookkeeping work already. To ayaz786amd = you completely misunderstood my post which was nothing to do with quality of work and to do with data security and UK laws... would you like to answer this point?
PS - WG = Do you remember many moons ago you suggested a "dating agency approach" to finding an accountant? ... well, now it's live
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Thank you .. think I have found it.. there was one typo on my home page... did you see any others?
independent, not independant
spiel, not speil
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Thanks WG... I'm not laughing at your tale honest
Well I understood the client's contract was with us, in the same way as a building job you might undertake has you firmly in the front line, so that any negligence claim would not befall your sparkie sub-contractor who burns the place down. The customer claims from you (or your insurance co), you (or your insurers) claim from the errant Sparkie (or from his insurers). You are of course vicariously liable for the Sparks.
I've heard of cases where "joint tortfeasors" are named in a claim, say your company and the Sparks', as a safeguard in case your insurance company were to duck the issue, or in case you put your company into liquidation. But I cannot imagine anyone going to the time and trouble of suing an Indian firm in India, even if they weren't CAs. Least of all me. Bit of a generalisation, but those guys are born negotiators, and they'd no doubt hustle their way out.
PS - WG = Do you remember many moons ago you suggested a "dating agency approach" to finding an accountant? ... well, now it's live
Hey, many congrats on that site Max. And so honest of you to state whose idea it was in an open forum - I'll must remember to post you an invoice Tuesday
I love the different types of client blog. Now that you're batting for the other side, how about one for "different types of accountant"?
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Thanks for comments about PII.. I was thinking about this because of how upset someone was a few weeks ago when they "find out" their Accountant was offshoring their work.
Here it is... 11th Oct 2008 (I obviously don't like to move too quickly on new ideas!)
Glad you liked that blog I might do one for different types of accountants but then I might not get any work ! A few headers come to mind...
The undervalued bright woman accountant
The voicemail accountant
The time-is-money accountant
The not-really-an-expert accountant
The serial award winners
The ego accountant
The away-with-the-fairies accountant
The semi-retired accountant
The religious accountant
The limited-liability-for-a-reason accountant
... oops best stop there ... unless you can think of any other headers?
Sorry, am joking
Hey, many congrats on that site Max. And so honest of you to state whose idea it was in an open forum - I'll must remember to post you an invoice Tuesday
Here it is... 11th Oct 2008 (I obviously don't like to move too quickly on new ideas!)
Glad you liked that blog
I might do one for different types of accountants but then I might not get any work ! A few headers come to mind...The undervalued bright woman accountant
The voicemail accountant
The time-is-money accountant
The not-really-an-expert accountant
The serial award winners
The ego accountant
The away-with-the-fairies accountant
The semi-retired accountant
The religious accountant
The limited-liability-for-a-reason accountant
... oops best stop there
... unless you can think of any other headers?Sorry, am joking
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Go on then. I hope you don't mean us.Glad you liked that blog
Elaine?
ouch!!
Duane?
David P?
Jenni?
Zeno?
The introvert accountant... oops best stop there
The extrovert accountant (worse)
The Obsessive Compulsive Disordered Accountant
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I've had made a "No offshore outsourcing" Union Jack which will go up on our site soon. I'm hearing more and more of UK "accountants" who Fedex or scan the records to India for work to be carried out there. I have to say I too would be annoyed if that were done to my records without my knowledge and consent. I think a little client-reassurance is called for.
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From my experience, little is scanned or mailed. The customer must enter information at a secure website. The grunt work, if I can put it that way, is done in India while the local accountant handles the customer interface, verifies the paperwork, and handles any exception conditions. I have no problem with this. It's a smart way of doing business.
Someone implied it's immoral to allow an Indian worker to be paid just a few pounds an hour. Frankly, that's a very naive statement to make. It wasn't so long ago that India was synonymous with poverty; today, they are a strong and growing economy because they are not afraid of hard work and delivering value. (They are obsessed with education, and it tells in the professionalism of their work.) What might have been £2 or £3 an hour not so long ago is today £8 or £9. For anyone with moral qualms, we've helped to pull a major country out of poverty (which I've been fortunate to see first-hand on many occasions).
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Wasn't that one of Oscar Wilde's famous quotes? He was talking about cynics, not accountants.
His famous accountant one-liner was "Why don't accountants stare out of their windows in the morning?"
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You would think wouldn't you that even if that was the reason, they would come up with a better explanation for customers? Apart from anything else it doesn't inspire confidence that they manage their credit risk very well either... which is an accountant's area of skill is it not?
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Jacking prices up on the second year's accounts seems to be a common ploy. Rather as insurance companies do - get your business in the first year at any price, then put you through the wringer in year 2.
Good for you for reacting by changing, Bri.
btw, did they tell you about the increased fees before or after the job?
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