Help! Crazy business idea!

[Paul FilmMaker]

So a retired event organiser I know is offering me an opportunity I can't really pass up. The reason is that while it's a 1000 - 1 shot, the potential is there.

To explain, there is a grade 2 star listed building which is up for sale. It's a big hall with a cafe and a license to sell booze and food. The issue is it's falling over, needs a ton of money for construction work. However, he is only offering it to me IF he can also fund the work.

The reason is that because it's listed, there is a huge amount of interest in stopping the thing becoming a casino (the other alternative) and there is potentially a private benefactor who will put in the required money to stop the place falling over! So this guy comes with the money, the expertise etc... and wants me to buy it. It's not his, incidentally. Rather, the previous owners went bust.

I would need to raise a little money to buy it (I have this), oversee the building work for about 15 months and then create the events business and do something with the food / drinks business. It would need a strong, marketing package.

Marketing is something I'm completely comfortable with (I create tons of marketing videos for my customers as I am video production) to create a ton of new customers. I'm also half-Chinese so grew up in the restaurant business and understand the amount of marketing and hard work it takes to make the food / beverage side work. I don't have experience in the venue business but the venue guy would help me and he's pretty good.

The core plan is to hire it out as an entertainment venue (plays, shows, name performers etc...), bring in some value-added corporate stuff, corporate conferences, dry hire it as a great space, use it for weddings and then have a community theatre in situ and have a load of loss-making community stuff. Some of this dovetails nicely into my existing video production business because one thing we do is film events, value-added corporate stuff, corporate conferences etc...! This clear connection would definitely allow me to increase revenues for my filming business! That part's a no-brainer!

The venue hire stuff is his area of expertise and he says he will show me the ropes, strategies etc... It's what he did so I think we can create something there.

The reason for the community stuff is because this is the catch. He and the philanthropist(s) want someone to give back to the community so I need to dedicate a % of time to create something that will achieve that. I think he trusts me, hence his potential offer. Run community programs and give back. Knowing nothing about this stuff, naturally, I'll bring in some other people to do this.

So I'm just testing this idea out in this forum because while it's a 1,000-1 shot and I don't think it'll come to fruition, I wanted to ask the hive mind of UKBF what you think. What are the red flags? What would you feel about this type of crazy venture? What is your 'feel?' Because this has come about completely from left field and the first time someone's come to with something reasonably concrete which might have a wild, outside chance of coming off.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

"The reason is that because it's listed, there is a huge amount of interest in stopping the thing becoming a casino (the other alternative) and there is potentially a private benefactor who will put in the required money to stop the place falling over! So this guy comes with the money, the expertise etc... and wants me to buy it. It's not his, incidentally. Rather, the previous owners went bust."

Presumably the Casino has lots of money and a long term future, Your idea seems a bit wishful thinking to be honest

What is your potential partners actually offering has you say he does not own the building. If it has that much potential why does he not buy it himself?

Promise of assistance can be a strong point or very weak point unless there is a watertight legal framework

 

[WeddingsInWales]

Bit confused as to the set-up. You are being asked to buy it off someone who went bankrupt and hire out a derelict building needing maintenance and a revamp/ restoration effort, to events, weddings etc, and to run dry and wet sales/ marketing/ service presumably yourself, with all the attendant staffing headaches on chefs, wedding planners, Front of House, legal compliance on fire safety, insurance etc. and give something back to the community - presumably free use of the premises or something when not using it commercially. You could look at any large defunct venue and decide whether or not to buy it, at say an auction. But you would need to have a formula for making it work, if you owned it and a knowledge of the demand level and income level of the local population able to hold their events at the venue (what population centres are within 20-30 miles or so? where can you draw business from? What is economic wealth level of the clientele in your area? - venue needs on the whole to be local-ish to a viable population base able to afford money to spend generously on weddings and events). I bought a derelict Victorian folly 'castle' in 2000, more as an escape to the country and as an HQ for my then business. I had a good cash flow from a business, that sadly 10 yrs later failed. Leaving me with a great big building and the need for it to stand on its own two feet as an events business. It is now a popular South Wales wedding venue but is forever having to market for weddings - which it tends to do thanks to a good reputation, good facebook and other reviews, plus SEO performing website, The profit if any is thanks more to the secondary income from Bar sales to Guests and B&B income from the guests, rather than the from the monies charged to the wedding couples for meals and venue hire. Charging the customer (Couple) a lower price for venue hire and wedding banquet, is a formula that gets more guests, as if you charge higher prices, Couples downsize their wedding guest list or go for 'evening only' to save money on having full day guests. In a recession people will still get married, but with fewer guests. We want more guests to benefit wet sales and B&B. Even though venues typically charge £100-£150 a guest say for the wedding day - meal, drinks package, eve buffet, DJ etc - (see prices on craig y nos castle weddings website ) this alone will just cover your costs. What you need is the extra income from B&B and wet sales, meaning you would also need a hotel with rooms to maximise income you would otherwise be giving to some other hotel owner near you! Also we have never really had much luck promoting entertainment / entertainers as the income is far less on ticket sales for a music event or play and they don't stay overnight and party. This is where you are best running events as a bit of a loss leader, to get people through the door who then decide to hold their own event or wedding with you. Some of our customers are slow to book a wedding, coming to an event and then marrying with us 10 years later! So it takes time to build up such a business. Incidentally we spend about £200k a year just maintaining the place and adding the odd room here and there, as restoration work is now somewhat behind due to COVID etc. Most of the income just gets spent on refurb - which sounds to be the problem in your case. Which is why a lot of events businesses tend to be run from lower maintenance buildings / halls etc. It is not an easy business but for it to work you need all the income it generates - you need rooms, for the B&B/ hotel income, you need wet and dry sales, and you also need to sell night before events (hen parties etc) to maximise income from each Couple by offering more services. We have not got enough rooms so a lot of our B&B income goes to neighbouring pubs and B&Bs who have built their own extra rooms to accommodate our overflow. So best advice, get somewhere where guests can stay overnight, next door, if possible.

 

[Newchodge]

Bit confused as to the set-up. You are being asked to buy it off someone who went bankrupt and hire out a derelict building needing maintenance and a revamp/ restoration effort, to events, weddings etc, and to run dry and wet sales/ marketing/ service presumably yourself, with all the attendant staffing headaches on chefs, wedding planners, Front of House, legal compliance on fire safety, insurance etc. and give something back to the community - presumably free use of the premises or something when not using it commercially. You could look at any large defunct venue and decide whether or not to buy it, at say an auction. But you would need to have a formula for making it work, if you owned it and a knowledge of the demand level and income level of the local population able to hold their events at the venue (what population centres are within 20-30 miles or so? where can you draw business from? What is economic wealth level of the clientele in your area? - venue needs on the whole to be local-ish to a viable population base able to afford money to spend generously on weddings and events). I bought a derelict Victorian folly 'castle' in 2000, more as an escape to the country and as an HQ for my then business. I had a good cash flow from a business, that sadly 10 yrs later failed. Leaving me with a great big building and the need for it to stand on its own two feet as an events business. It is now a popular South Wales wedding venue but is forever having to market for weddings - which it tends to do thanks to a good reputation, good facebook and other reviews, plus SEO performing website, The profit if any is thanks more to the secondary income from Bar sales to Guests and B&B income from the guests, rather than the from the monies charged to the wedding couples for meals and venue hire. Charging the customer (Couple) a lower price for venue hire and wedding banquet, is a formula that gets more guests, as if you charge higher prices, Couples downsize their wedding guest list or go for 'evening only' to save money on having full day guests. In a recession people will still get married, but with fewer guests. We want more guests to benefit wet sales and B&B. Even though venues typically charge £100-£150 a guest say for the wedding day - meal, drinks package, eve buffet, DJ etc - (see prices on craig y nos castle weddings website ) this alone will just cover your costs. What you need is the extra income from B&B and wet sales, meaning you would also need a hotel with rooms to maximise income you would otherwise be giving to some other hotel owner near you! Also we have never really had much luck promoting entertainment / entertainers as the income is far less on ticket sales for a music event or play and they don't stay overnight and party. This is where you are best running events as a bit of a loss leader, to get people through the door who then decide to hold their own event or wedding with you. Some of our customers are slow to book a wedding, coming to an event and then marrying with us 10 years later! So it takes time to build up such a business. Incidentally we spend about £200k a year just maintaining the place and adding the odd room here and there, as restoration work is now somewhat behind due to COVID etc. Most of the income just gets spent on refurb - which sounds to be the problem in your case. Which is why a lot of events businesses tend to be run from lower maintenance buildings / halls etc. It is not an easy business but for it to work you need all the income it generates - you need rooms, for the B&B/ hotel income, you need wet and dry sales, and you also need to sell night before events (hen parties etc) to maximise income from each Couple by offering more services. We have not got enough rooms so a lot of our B&B income goes to neighbouring pubs and B&Bs who have built their own extra rooms to accommodate our overflow. So best advice, get somewhere where guests can stay overnight, next door, if possible.

Do you think you could break down your comments into paragraphs. Makes it more likely to be read!

 

[estwig]

The busybodies behind grade 2 listed stuff are an absolute nightmare to deal with, English Heritage.

Generally a bunch of well-meaning retired people on a mission to save everything, regardless of cost to society, or cost to business, or build costs. They have too much say and too much power.

Engage with them very early on, long before money changes hands, find out what they want and expect. Bear in mind they are mostly elderly volunteers, nothing happens quickly in their World!

 

[Mark T Jones]

You have boxed off the red flags I typically see on hospitality 'opportunities', but I still suggest you go back and ask yourself tough questions about them, with your cynic's head on.

As I'm sure you know, offering food & beverages isn't about quality or imagination, it's predominantly about delivering your customer what they want - consistently. (which starts with knowing who your customer is)

Next - development/refurb etc. I've yet to see one come in on time & on budget. Sometimes it's just 20% out - the worst I've seen is 3 X budget and 2 year over-run. There are ways to mitigate and manage this, but you still won't be spot on - particularly in a listed building.

And finally, running / staffing the thing - it's bloody difficult finding & keeping good staff, particularly chefs!

 

[Mark T Jones]

The busybodies behind grade 2 listed stuff are an absolute nightmare to deal with, English Heritage.

Just had precisely this conversation with a hotel operator.

He tried to do the right thing by keeping then involved, ended up going straight through them & got planning people to override them. (English Heritage have no legal status, they are ultimately just an objecting party, albeit with a loud voice)

 

[IanSuth]

I used to work on gigs and knew a promoter well (my ex became his stage manager)

Some thoughts in random order ignoring the finance side

Listed building and the changes to get a building through fire regs as a venue space with enough capacity may be an issue - talk to a professional on this side before committing (used to work in a venue that had it's fire capacity halved when a change to a reg meant an access to a fire door was 4cm too narrow to allow that fire exit to continue being counted)

If doing food again listed building plus required ventilation don't mix well

Do you have a lot of Hindu's locally ? If so paint the main hall predominantly red, it works for gigs and it will make it attractive to dry hire for Hindu weddings, especially if you can just give access to a food prep area. They love a big space with a place they can rock up and reheat heat/serve food they bring.

Given your past background you likely know the local PA/Lighting hire co's and promoters - ask them if there is a demand locally for the size of venue you will provide. No point providing a 1000 capacity hall if there is only an audience for 400 people gigs or big bands who need 2000 plus.

Do you have a local college/work program concentrating on the trades - an opportunity for students to work on a real project without as much pressure and hands on with a listed building/old techniques might get you cheap labour and/or get you an in with the council conservation team that makes your life easier plus serves a community purpose.

 

[Mark T Jones]

The explanation is that since it's recorded, there is a gigantic measure of revenue in halting the thing turning into a club (the other option) and there is possibly a confidential sponsor who will place in the necessary cash to stop the spot falling over! So this person accompanies the cash, the mastery and so on and believes that me should get it. It's not his, unexpectedly. Rather, the past proprietors became penniless."

Probably the Club has bunches of cash and a drawn out future, Your thought appears to be a piece living in fantasy land frankly

Hmmm

pot / kettle?

 

[Newchodge]

Hmmm

pot / kettle?

I'm not sure as I don't understand what the post you are replying to is trying to say!

 

[MBE2017]

Listed buildings can be a nightmare too develop, expect to double your expected time frame. Costs of materials have risen 40% in the last year, once you start on a renovation it is very common to hit many unexpected problems.

On a new build I would allow 10/15% as a contingency fund, on this sort of project I would cost for 50% minimum.

You would be best looking at setting up an SPV for the project, and getting in someone who knows how to use every tax break and allowance to your advantage, if you decide to go ahead.

I think you would be very brave going ahead on your own.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Hello house

Are you having problems coming up with a universal name and you don’t know how to start! I’m here to help you carry out all your business name, brand name, company name and slogan including social media handle and trademark search if you also need a reliable domain I’m always at your service. I am a professional and an experienced business name developer with more than 7years of experience. I will develop eye catching unique and quality names that will give your business a new edge and I will make sure the name is catchy easy and meaningful. I will also make your business name generate more sales and beat your existing competitors and stand ahead in global market.

See you later.........

 

[GFI]

Bit confused as to the set-up. You are being asked to buy it off someone who went bankrupt and hire out a derelict building needing maintenance and a revamp/ restoration effort, to events, weddings etc, and to run dry and wet sales/ marketing/ service presumably yourself, with all the attendant staffing headaches on chefs, wedding planners, Front of House, legal compliance on fire safety, insurance etc. and give something back to the community - presumably free use of the premises or something when not using it commercially. You could look at any large defunct venue and decide whether or not to buy it, at say an auction. But you would need to have a formula for making it work, if you owned it and a knowledge of the demand level and income level of the local population able to hold their events at the venue (what population centres are within 20-30 miles or so? where can you draw business from? What is economic wealth level of the clientele in your area? - venue needs on the whole to be local-ish to a viable population base able to afford money to spend generously on weddings and events). I bought a derelict Victorian folly 'castle' in 2000, more as an escape to the country and as an HQ for my then business. I had a good cash flow from a business, that sadly 10 yrs later failed. Leaving me with a great big building and the need for it to stand on its own two feet as an events business. It is now a popular South Wales wedding venue but is forever having to market for weddings - which it tends to do thanks to a good reputation, good facebook and other reviews, plus SEO performing website, The profit if any is thanks more to the secondary income from Bar sales to Guests and B&B income from the guests, rather than the from the monies charged to the wedding couples for meals and venue hire. Charging the customer (Couple) a lower price for venue hire and wedding banquet, is a formula that gets more guests, as if you charge higher prices, Couples downsize their wedding guest list or go for 'evening only' to save money on having full day guests. In a recession people will still get married, but with fewer guests. We want more guests to benefit wet sales and B&B. Even though venues typically charge £100-£150 a guest say for the wedding day - meal, drinks package, eve buffet, DJ etc - (see prices on craig y nos castle weddings website ) this alone will just cover your costs. What you need is the extra income from B&B and wet sales, meaning you would also need a hotel with rooms to maximise income you would otherwise be giving to some other hotel owner near you! Also we have never really had much luck promoting entertainment / entertainers as the income is far less on ticket sales for a music event or play and they don't stay overnight and party. This is where you are best running events as a bit of a loss leader, to get people through the door who then decide to hold their own event or wedding with you. Some of our customers are slow to book a wedding, coming to an event and then marrying with us 10 years later! So it takes time to build up such a business. Incidentally we spend about £200k a year just maintaining the place and adding the odd room here and there, as restoration work is now somewhat behind due to COVID etc. Most of the income just gets spent on refurb - which sounds to be the problem in your case. Which is why a lot of events businesses tend to be run from lower maintenance buildings / halls etc. It is not an easy business but for it to work you need all the income it generates - you need rooms, for the B&B/ hotel income, you need wet and dry sales, and you also need to sell night before events (hen parties etc) to maximise income from each Couple by offering more services. We have not got enough rooms so a lot of our B&B income goes to neighbouring pubs and B&Bs who have built their own extra rooms to accommodate our overflow. So best advice, get somewhere where guests can stay overnight, next door, if possible.

Really...

There is a key on your keyboard that says "Enter" or maybe even "Return".

Use it.

I did not read any of your words.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

It sounds like it could be a cash cow or a money pit - there are a lot of variables.

Location will play a lot in the decision, but, like most business related things, pay more attention to the downsides rather than the upsides!

 

[WeddingsInWales]

Do you think you could break down your comments into paragraphs. Makes it more likely to be read!

How do I edit it to put in paragraphs - no edit button found

 

[Newchodge]

How do I edit it to put in paragraphs - no edit button found

I think you can only edit it for a limited period of time after posting. Sorry.

 

[Stuart2022]

If you are going to start a business then you need to believe in it- asking strangers on the internet whether they think you should do something or not is perhaps a sign that you should think very carefully.

I have found this forum to be priceless if you ask specific questions such as "How do I do..." or "I am thinking of this, what are the implications of..." but a general "is this a good idea" is just going to get you fifty conflicting opinions.

Personally I would work out specific questions in order to get specific answers. Best of luck.

 

[Paul FilmMaker]

You have boxed off the red flags I typically see on hospitality 'opportunities', but I still suggest you go back and ask yourself tough questions about them, with your cynic's head on.

As I'm sure you know, offering food & beverages isn't about quality or imagination, it's predominantly about delivering your customer what they want - consistently. (which starts with knowing who your customer is)

Next - development/refurb etc. I've yet to see one come in on time & on budget. Sometimes it's just 20% out - the worst I've seen is 3 X budget and 2 year over-run. There are ways to mitigate and manage this, but you still won't be spot on - particularly in a listed building.

And finally, running / staffing the thing - it's bloody difficult finding & keeping good staff, particularly chefs!

I literally took the highest quote and doubled it! I figure that's probably closest to the truth!

 

[Paul FilmMaker]

The busybodies behind grade 2 listed stuff are an absolute nightmare to deal with, English Heritage.

Generally a bunch of well-meaning retired people on a mission to save everything, regardless of cost to society, or cost to business, or build costs. They have too much say and too much power.

Engage with them very early on, long before money changes hands, find out what they want and expect. Bear in mind they are mostly elderly volunteers, nothing happens quickly in their World!

A friend of mine had issues. He discovered that one or two of them were open to 'donations.' So when he 'donated' money all of a sudden he had planning permission to do a few, simple things. I mean really simple stuff.

 

[estwig]

A friend of mine had issues. He discovered that one or two of them were open to 'donations.' So when he 'donated' money all of a sudden he had planning permission to do a few, simple things. I mean really simple stuff.

Not the first time I've come across this with the heritage guys.

I may take more of an interest in old buildings, once I'm old myself of course.

 

[The Resolver]

With the other guy putting up most of the monies and you overseeing the project and running the eventual business, the worry is that if it all goes wrong he will release a pack of lawyers against you. So, if you do decide to take it on, you need right at the outset a comprehensive agreement that fully protects you from any liability to him/his company (save for gross breach of the fundamental agreement to front up the business)

Ask him for the reason why he does not want to be on the title deeds of the property? That is another fundamental worry. He puts up most of the monies yet he forgoes the security of ownership! Does he have a history/persistent creditors? . Or does he expect to have a charge over the title?

 

[The Byre]

So this is what happens to nearly all such projects -

1. Listed building - so it will take ages for the thing to get any kind of green light and then only with various conditions that make the original plans close to unviable.

2. Then the various partners fall out or someone backs off as a result of the conditions making the whole project dodgy.

3. After spending twice as much as originally planned, the thing opens to local acclaim and local headlines in a paper only read by octogenarians.

4. It sort of looks as if the thing might work and you get a few bookings. Some are quite tasty and that whole side of things gives you hope.

5. Five-to-ten-years-later and bookings are drying up. The food is tired and fewer people come past.

6. The whole project fails and is sold and turned into a casino/knocking shop/bingo hall - delete as appropriate.

7. The new owners vanish and the place falls into disrepair. As it is still a listed building, it takes forever to find a new owner who will take it on.

8. Go back to step one!

Alternative ending - "Sorry to hear about your hall burning down last week, Paul!"
Paul - "Shoosh! Not last week! That's next week, you fool!"

P.S.

Ask him for the reason why he does not want to be on the title deeds of the property? That is another fundamental worry. He puts up most of the monies yet he forgoes the security of ownership! Does he have a history/persistent creditors? . Or does he expect to have a charge over the title?

If that ain't one doozy of a red flag, then I don't know what is! A healthy dose of due diligence is called for here!

 

[Paul FilmMaker]

So this is what happens to nearly all such projects -

1. Listed building - so it will take ages for the thing to get any kind of green light and then only with various conditions that make the original plans close to unviable.

2. Then the various partners fall out or someone backs off as a result of the conditions making the whole project dodgy.

3. After spending twice as much as originally planned, the thing opens to local acclaim and local headlines in a paper only read by octogenarians.

4. It sort of looks as if the thing might work and you get a few bookings. Some are quite tasty and that whole side of things gives you hope.

5. Five-to-ten-years-later and bookings are drying up. The food is tired and fewer people come past.

6. The whole project fails and is sold and turned into a casino/knocking shop/bingo hall - delete as appropriate.

7. The new owners vanish and the place falls into disrepair. As it is still a listed building, it takes forever to find a new owner who will take it on.

8. Go back to step one!

Alternative ending - "Sorry to hear about your hall burning down last week, Paul!"
Paul - "Shoosh! Not last week! That's next week, you fool!"

P.S.


If that ain't one doozy of a red flag, then I don't know what is! A healthy dose of due diligence is called for here!

Shhh... don't mention the 'burn it down and claim it on the insurance' thing. That's the plan B...

The Casino is the smart option. It's the only thing that would naturally work within the space given the constraints and location.

It's a 1000 - 1 shot.

'If' the guy can put the money in a bank account, it's do-able. Have a meeting with him tomorrow. And incidentally, for everyone asking 'why' he'd want someone to take it on, there's a really good reason and I know him well. He's above board. He'd be a great Chairman.

The big question is why he'd want me involved. There are a zillion people who can manage something like this if the money's there.

 

[Lion King]

So a retired event organiser I know is offering me an opportunity I can't really pass up. The reason is that while it's a 1000 - 1 shot, the potential is there.

To explain, there is a grade 2 star listed building which is up for sale. It's a big hall with a cafe and a license to sell booze and food. The issue is it's falling over, needs a ton of money for construction work. However, he is only offering it to me IF he can also fund the work.

The reason is that because it's listed, there is a huge amount of interest in stopping the thing becoming a casino (the other alternative) and there is potentially a private benefactor who will put in the required money to stop the place falling over! So this guy comes with the money, the expertise etc... and wants me to buy it. It's not his, incidentally. Rather, the previous owners went bust.

I would need to raise a little money to buy it (I have this), oversee the building work for about 15 months and then create the events business and do something with the food / drinks business. It would need a strong, marketing package.

Marketing is something I'm completely comfortable with (I create tons of marketing videos for my customers as I am video production) to create a ton of new customers. I'm also half-Chinese so grew up in the restaurant business and understand the amount of marketing and hard work it takes to make the food / beverage side work. I don't have experience in the venue business but the venue guy would help me and he's pretty good.

The core plan is to hire it out as an entertainment venue (plays, shows, name performers etc...), bring in some value-added corporate stuff, corporate conferences, dry hire it as a great space, use it for weddings and then have a community theatre in situ and have a load of loss-making community stuff. Some of this dovetails nicely into my existing video production business because one thing we do is film events, value-added corporate stuff, corporate conferences etc...! This clear connection would definitely allow me to increase revenues for my filming business! That part's a no-brainer!

The venue hire stuff is his area of expertise and he says he will show me the ropes, strategies etc... It's what he did so I think we can create something there.

The reason for the community stuff is because this is the catch. He and the philanthropist(s) want someone to give back to the community so I need to dedicate a % of time to create something that will achieve that. I think he trusts me, hence his potential offer. Run community programs and give back. Knowing nothing about this stuff, naturally, I'll bring in some other people to do this.

So I'm just testing this idea out in this forum because while it's a 1,000-1 shot and I don't think it'll come to fruition, I wanted to ask the hive mind of UKBF what you think. What are the red flags? What would you feel about this type of crazy venture? What is your 'feel?' Because this has come about completely from left field and the first time someone's come to with something reasonably concrete which might have a wild, outside chance of coming off.

If it was that "crazy good" business idea that would make you millions you would keep it tight for yourself and not vent it publicly on a internet forum.

So that sort of answers your own question about how god it really is... Right?

 

[Mark T Jones]

If it was that "crazy good" business idea that would make you millions you would keep it tight for yourself and not vent it publicly on a internet forum.

So that sort of answers your own question about how god it really is... Right?

Did you actually read the post?

There is no suggestion that the idea is unique or secret, nor that it will make millions.

The question is around the structure of the business

 

[Lion King]

Did you actually read the post?

Yes, I did.

Now You call it yourself "Help! Crazy business idea!" so you already think yourself that is is a crazy idea and since you are posting it on the internet you must have real some considerations that worry you to the point that you ask total strangers about it.

Now if you are only looking for confirmations of "yes say'ers" to move ahead and doesn't like to be told that it is a sheite idea then fine. It's your problem and it is not going to make me loose my money if you go ahead.

But I think you already know that it is a bad idea which is why you are venting here in the internet.

My deeper answer then:
So yes it is a crazy sheite idea because in this time we live in right now with the very high inflation created by our dear politicians (because they love printing money and thus giving promises they can keep as long as the printing press keeps rolling); everything from food prices to energy prices goes through the roof and will keep going up because the printing press has stopped and now were paying the price.. The last two crazy year of covid fear porn already hurt the economy badly with absolutely outrageous restrictions and society shutdowns which speed up the process of inflation already there and now the new current thing with the west's proxy war with Russia isn't going to make it better for economy, it's only going to make it even worse with higher prices of everything.

You won't survive a month. Everyday Joe have enough economical issues already and will highly likely not go out to eat a burger and drink a draft beer (or whatever), that cost half his salary when there is bills to pay at home.

10-20 years ago this would maybe been a good, even awesome idea, but in todays toxic business climate where restaurants and tons of other small business are bleeding hard and is shutting down/going bankrupt this is just crazy to ever think of considering a startup in a business sector like that.

 

[Paul FilmMaker]

Did you actually read the post?

There is no suggestion that the idea is unique or secret, nor that it will make millions.

The question is around the structure of the business

100% this.

 

[Paul FilmMaker]

It sounds like it could be a cash cow or a money pit - there are a lot of variables.

Location will play a lot in the decision, but, like most business related things, pay more attention to the downsides rather than the upsides!

Right now there now seems to be a bidding war. Turns out we're not the only ones who think the crazy idea isn't entirely crazy if certain structural elements are taken care of.

There is a particular individual with deep pockets who paints herself as a 'philanthropist' who wants it. She seems to want it quite a lot.

 

[forevergroup]

My first thought would be, if the previous owners couldn't make the site profitable - or afford the necessary renovations - could a new occupant? 'Going bust' in such a location must be a highly stressful experience.

There are many reasons that such businesses fail. Site, location, marketing outreach, local or regional competition, staffing challenges, upkeep costs, the list goes on. Bear in mind the energy rate costs for a large grade 2 listed property will have skyrocketed over the past year.

We're also heading into a recession, which isn't the best thing for the hospitality sector.

Also, bidding wars for philanthropists with deep pockets sounds far more conducive to a vanity exercise on their end than positive business outcomes.

After all, if they wanted to spend their money on purely philanthropic projects then a Grade 2 listed property destined primarily for commercial events purposes has to be far down the list surely. If it's attractive as an events/wedding location is it near to the community it claims to be aiming to support?

If your interest/priority in this is mainly commercial, then that alone may be a good reason to avoid or at least retain caution with their claimed objectives.

It sounds lovely from a 'heart' perspective. And I certainly wish you the best whichever direction you go. But it sounds like this needs reassessing purely from a 'head' standpoint and go from there.

 

[Socio South West]

The busybodies behind grade 2 listed stuff are an absolute nightmare to deal with, English Heritage.

Generally a bunch of well-meaning retired people on a mission to save everything, regardless of cost to society, or cost to business, or build costs. They have too much say and too much power.

Engage with them very early on, long before money changes hands, find out what they want and expect. Bear in mind they are mostly elderly volunteers, nothing happens quickly in their World!

Not sure this is strictly correct @estwig - For the several listed building works I have dealt with the contacts have always been the Listed Building Officers/ Conservation officers of the local council planning department.
EH or NT have only been actively involved if they own/manage the property in question.

By default any application will usually be cc'd to English Heritage or National Trust for comment, and I will agree that if they do object, then they can be a PITA!
Generally, provided the items specified in the property listing are being properly preserved/conserved as part of any works, Grade 2 listings shouldn't present a great problem. Engagement with your appropriate Council Contacts as you develop your project is certainly the best way forward.

 

[estwig]

Not sure this is strictly correct @estwig - For the several listed building works I have dealt with the contacts have always been the Listed Building Officers/ Conservation officers of the local council planning department.
EH or NT have only been actively involved if they own/manage the property in question.

By default any application will usually be cc'd to English Heritage or National Trust for comment, and I will agree that if they do object, then they can be a PITA!
Generally, provided the items specified in the property listing are being properly preserved/conserved as part of any works, Grade 2 listings shouldn't present a great problem. Engagement with your appropriate Council Contacts as you develop your project is certainly the best way forward.

It don't quite work like that, when you wanna build a sodding great big 2 storey side extension, on the side of a Grade 2 listed cottage!

Everyone gets very excitable and everyone has an opinion, it's a bitch of thing to deal with, glad I got out of that nonsense!

 

[Paul FilmMaker]

My first thought would be, if the previous owners couldn't make the site profitable - or afford the necessary renovations - could a new occupant? 'Going bust' in such a location must be a highly stressful experience.

There are many reasons that such businesses fail. Site, location, marketing outreach, local or regional competition, staffing challenges, upkeep costs, the list goes on. Bear in mind the energy rate costs for a large grade 2 listed property will have skyrocketed over the past year.

We're also heading into a recession, which isn't the best thing for the hospitality sector.

Also, bidding wars for philanthropists with deep pockets sounds far more conducive to a vanity exercise on their end than positive business outcomes.

After all, if they wanted to spend their money on purely philanthropic projects then a Grade 2 listed property destined primarily for commercial events purposes has to be far down the list surely. If it's attractive as an events/wedding location is it near to the community it claims to be aiming to support?

If your interest/priority in this is mainly commercial, then that alone may be a good reason to avoid or at least retain caution with their claimed objectives.

It sounds lovely from a 'heart' perspective. And I certainly wish you the best whichever direction you go. But it sounds like this needs reassessing purely from a 'head' standpoint and go from there.

Yes. Bidding wars are bad. Very bad in this case.

I think there is a degree of excitement over this venue. It's getting out of hand and numbers are getting silly.

Business outcomes seem to be going out the window...

 

[The Byre]

I think there is a degree of excitement over this venue. It's getting out of hand and numbers are getting silly.

Let them - my 30 cents worth is "Fingers off!" Give the market time and prices will calm down and return to normal levels. Then and only then, there will be business opportunities everywhere you look and at very attractive prices.

I wish I had a tenner for every listed building pitched at me as a great business opportunity - mostly as pubs, cafes, film or recording studios, art galleries or whatever bone-headed idea someone thinks I would be daft enough to go for!

It can be hard enough getting planning permission for regular buildings that have no restrictions - but as soon as I hear the magic word 'listed' I know anyone trying to alter anything that makes that turkey viable for their business is in for a whole new world of pain!

 

[MBE2017]

Approx 60% of existing sales are collapsing before completion atm, that figure will probably rise. Things take a while to filter through to the “market” but they will eventually.

I had a guy wanting to sell recently, the problem being he still thinks it is a sellers market and my offer was dismissed abruptly. I explained the reasoning on my valuation, the work that would be required, costing etc.

Last night he rang myself up wishing to go ahead now at my suggested price, only problem being I have allocated the funding into a better project.

I might still do a deal, but last months figures are now out of date.

 

[Deleted member 352941]

I'm wondering what the Philanthropist angle is here given he could buy the building too?

Possible Tax benefits? Donating money to a project like this may provide tax benefits for the philanthropist, making it a more cost-effective way of supporting the community.

In the UK, a philanthropist can receive tax benefits for donations to a charitable cause. If the philanthropist makes a donation to a charity that is recognized as a “charitable organization” under UK law, they may be eligible for tax relief on the donation.

Specifically, if the philanthropist is a UK taxpayer, they can claim Gift Aid on their donation, which allows the charity to claim an additional 25% of the donation from the government. This means that for every £1 donated, the charity can claim an additional 25p, effectively increasing the value of the donation to £1.25.

Additionally, if the philanthropist is a higher rate taxpayer, they can claim further tax relief on their donation by including the amount in their self-assessment tax return. This can result in a tax reduction of up to 45% of the value of the donation.

It's important to note that in order for the philanthropist to claim these tax benefits, the donation must be made to a registered charity in the UK.

The question is thus .... have you been asked to register as a charity or will you when you begin (if you begin) the community projects?

 

[DoolallyTap]

Yawn!! it will not happen.

 

[Fagin2021]

Yawn!! it will not happen.

About as useful as your other posts.

 

[Paul FilmMaker]

I'm wondering what the Philanthropist angle is here given he could buy the building too?

Possible Tax benefits? Donating money to a project like this may provide tax benefits for the philanthropist, making it a more cost-effective way of supporting the community.

In the UK, a philanthropist can receive tax benefits for donations to a charitable cause. If the philanthropist makes a donation to a charity that is recognized as a “charitable organization” under UK law, they may be eligible for tax relief on the donation.

Specifically, if the philanthropist is a UK taxpayer, they can claim Gift Aid on their donation, which allows the charity to claim an additional 25% of the donation from the government. This means that for every £1 donated, the charity can claim an additional 25p, effectively increasing the value of the donation to £1.25.

Additionally, if the philanthropist is a higher rate taxpayer, they can claim further tax relief on their donation by including the amount in their self-assessment tax return. This can result in a tax reduction of up to 45% of the value of the donation.

It's important to note that in order for the philanthropist to claim these tax benefits, the donation must be made to a registered charity in the UK.

The question is thus .... have you been asked to register as a charity or will you when you begin (if you begin) the community projects?

The bid's gone in. There's apparently now a bit of competition as a bunch of other people have similar ideas but from a more commercial level.

I'm stepping right back because it's now messy...