Greek Bailout

[Parrot Hosting]

There is no doubting what Germany/France is up to and even the most sceptical would have to agree that there is a definitive shift in attitude from the EU stalwarts against those who might stray from the centre ground. Conspicuous by the absence of other countries comments or views I suspect what we are beginning to see is the beginning of the endgame.. ie not only the survival of the Euro but the cementing of ideals.. the hardening of attitudes is such that there can be only one outcome... total domination of the Eurozone by these two leaders.

They would rather keep the weak countries in the Euro because when the proverbial **** hits the fan these countries would be hard pressed to stand against 'Merkel und freunds' and it will leave the UK increasingly isolated (and don't rely on the 'special Relationship' of the US to stand behind us this time).

I suspect a large part of the reluctance of DC and party faithful to take us out of europe and even have a referendum would be the turning back of the clocks 60 years if it was successful. Make no mistake the recent mention of not wanting to go back to the days of european wars was no idle threat but a stark possibility in the future if we make a wrong move.

That said, I have no desire to be ruled by an unelected puppet in Brussels and if we are going to ever break out of this, now is the time to do it because there won't be a chance for much longer.. and Germany knows it.

The only option we have is the breaking up of the Euro... and who says that is not being stage managed to give us a fighting chance... after all not everyone who is a a trillionaire is 'for' a united Europe and there must be countries and within those countries major interests that are working together to undermine the stability of the eurozone.

It now remains to be seen if the Eurozone can keep the Euro afloat and keep the weak members together long enough to see stability return and it enemies (the free world) vanquished..

Okay, thats my Saturday Rant out of the way early or late whichever week your in. (as always, its just my opinion).

 

[Mike tells it like it is]

Another war in europe is on the cards.

As for the US lol special relationship my backside.

Look ta what they did after World War 2

 

[Nuno]

Everyone seems to think the cost of Greece defaulting is the issue when in fact the Greece problem (and ours, collectively) is the Euro itself. Treating the symptoms of the illness gives the impression of healing the patient.

I agree that Greece isn't the problem, and nor are Portugal, Italy, Ireland or Spain, (the PIIGS). However I think that blaming the Euro is a little off mark.

I think the core problem is the level of debt each country has built up; corporate debt, government debt and personal debt. The average level for western economies + Japan is 314% of GDP.

This debt cannot be sustained as rollover tranches of it are not finding funding, and if they do are getting so expensive in repayment as a % of GDP that growth is stifled, unemployment grows and we spiral down the plughole.

And nobody knows what to do.

It's easy to laugh at the Occupy protesters for their lack of policies, but nobody else seems to have any idea of what to do either, they just blather and pretend they do.

Which, to use British understatement, is a bit of a worry.
Eurogeddon. A spot of bother.

 

[Mike tells it like it is]

I agree that Greece isn't the problem, and nor are Portugal, Italy, Ireland or Spain, (the PIIGS). However I think that blaming the Euro is a little off mark.

I think the core problem is the level of debt each country has built up; corporate debt, government debt and personal debt. The average level for western economies + Japan is 314% of GDP.

This debt cannot be sustained as rollover tranches of it are not finding funding, and if they do are getting so expensive in repayment as a % of GDP that growth is stifled, unemployment grows and we spiral down the plughole.

And nobody knows what to do.

It's easy to laugh at the Occupy protesters for their lack of policies, but nobody else seems to have any idea of what to do either, they just blather and pretend they do.

Which, to use British understatement, is a bit of a worry.
Eurogeddon. A spot of bother.

Please don't make me use the N word.

 

[Parrot Hosting]

Frankly you are spot on. The reason the Euro is an epic fail is because it is supported on debt and increasingly using debt as a means to strengthen its position. It can only be sustained if everyone gets in so far financially (up to their armpits and deeper) that they cannot pull out. The UK isn't yet that far in but another few months and another few payments and we will be in so deep we won't see daylight for a decade, and by the time we do the war will already be over. In that IDS is absolutely right 2.5 years of austerity against a decade of austerity AND the loss of sovereignty - choose.... :S

 

[SimplyKev]

"I agree that Greece isn't the problem, and nor are Portugal, Italy, Ireland or Spain, (the PIIGS). However I think that blaming the Euro is a little off mark."

You dont seem to understand that the Euro allowed these countries to borrow more cheaply and they've made the most of it. Bit like a teenage kid only managing to get an overdraft at 20% interest so he opens a joint account with his parents allowing him to borrow at 5% and runs up so much debt he threatens to bankrupt everyone. This is why Ireland and Spain had a property boom thats now gone bust!

 

[dagr]

"I agree that Greece isn't the problem, and nor are Portugal, Italy, Ireland or Spain, (the PIIGS). However I think that blaming the Euro is a little off mark."

You dont seem to understand that the Euro allowed these countries to borrow more cheaply and they've made the most of it. Bit like a teenage kid only managing to get an overdraft at 20% interest so he opens a joint account with his parents allowing him to borrow at 5% and runs up so much debt he threatens to bankrupt everyone. This is why Ireland and Spain had a property boom thats now gone bust!

And that's why you cant have monetary union without much better fiscal control and union. It's like having a joint bank account with people you have no way of checking and who don't bother to check the account's balance. What the EU is asking now of Greece, etc., is simply what it should have been asking over 10 years ago. Accountability.

And the UK's biggest headache is now Italy, and that isn't all the Euro's fault.

 

[captaincloser]

And that's why you cant have monetary union without much better fiscal control and union. It's like having a joint bank account with people you have no way of checking and who don't bother to check the account's balance. What the EU is asking now of Greece, etc., is simply what it should have been asking over 10 years ago. Accountability.

And the UK's biggest headache is now Italy, and that isn't all the Euro's fault.

Greece simply gatecrashed and had a ball and everyone let them off the hook all the way.

Italy have a much bigger problem and may well return to their yo-yo government times.

In a perfect world the whole of the Italian parliament, which is rotten to the core, should have been turfed out...not just Berlusconi.

But we can't lecture them from here in the UK.We cannot lecture anyone.

 

[dagr]

Cameron's big problem now is Italy, more specifically, UK banks' exposure to Italy's banks. Greece was a big Franco-German problem, with only minor irritation to the UK. Now the UK is in potential big trouble, hence Cameron's recent nipping at the heals of Merkel to get the ECB to step in. Staying with our "spoiled brat joint bank account analogy", it would suit many countries, even those that don't have access to the joint account like the UK, for the responsibility of the debts run up in the joint account to be mutualised among all account holders, i.e. have the ECB take over. However, Germany is holding the wayward countries (the spoiled brats) to account and not mopping up their debts so easily.

I kind of agree with Germany's firm stance on this from a principle point of view, but it is a very risky game in practice.