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Evolution or Intelligent Design?

Evolution or Intelligent Design?

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Top Hat

Top Hat

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Mar 3, 2005
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Airstrip One
Evolution or Intelligent Design?

It's a while since we had the last debate.

Anyway the answer is Evolution, I find it shocking that the actually teach ID in some schools in the US
 
I wonder what "prove" entails. Does it mean that he doesn't have a come back argument? That would basically make it impossible. You can argue about anything.
 
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Top Hat said:
Evolution or Intelligent Design?

It's a while since we had the last debate.

Anyway the answer is Evolution, I find it shocking that the actually teach ID in some schools in the US
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Always the one to be controversial, let me give my opinion on this.

First, let me point out that I am writing as a trained scientist, with a PhD in theoretical physics. Second, I'm writing as a natural cynic, someone who takes nothing at face value. Third, let me reassure you that I am writing objectively, not blinded by my own faith.

Science is strict about terminology. Terms such as fact, model, hypothesis, theory, and law have strict definitions. A hypothesis is a good working model that can be used to explain facts and to predict behaviour. A good hypothesis can predict behaviour consistently. When the hypothesis cannot be broken, it emerges as a theory. After hundreds of years have passed, a reliable theory becomes an established law.

By any measure of the scientific method, evolution remains a hypothesis. It is a good working hypothesis, but facts are forever contradicting it. No respectable scientist can honestly claim that it is yet a reliable theory. In this light, we should be open to considering other models and hypotheses. This is why some in the US and elsewhere have proposed teaching an alternative hypothesis: intelligent design. I agree with them wholeheartedly.

The problem here is that the debate focuses on philosophy and not science. Intelligent design smacks of a higher being, a starting assumption that many authorities refuse to allow. When it really comes down to it, this is what the debate is all about. Should educators be allowed to assume the existence of a supreme being when teaching science? Newton did. Pascal did. Rutherford did. Faraday did. Maxwell did. Why shouldn't we?

I get very frustrated when I hear the popular press ridiculing proponents of intelligent design as trying to take us back to the Dark Ages. Far from it! They realise that evolution cannot explain some basic facts and are honestly seeking other hypotheses to explain reality. This has always been the role of science. Galileo was ridiculed and threatened with his life for proposing a model that he honestly believed to be true; time proved him to be right. The proponents of intelligent design, likewise, are facing ridicule as they try to craft a model that better explains the facts.

MacMyDay is being intellectually honest:

MacMyDay said:
Well, it certainly caused some controversy.

Fraid I'm an atheist, so evolution. I also enjoy Richard Dawkins books too much to change.
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He admits his starting assumption. I wish more people would do that.

I know that most people will disagree with me. All I ask is that we consider the facts and not be influenced by the media.
 
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I would say Evolution...just one thing puzzles me, how come we have apes and monkeys, why didn't they turn into people?

Really, there should be no Monkeys if evolution is true :lol:

Jayne
 
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"Proponents of the theory of evolution would do well to admit that they believe in evolution, but they do not know that it happened the way they teach. They should call evolution their "faith" or "religion," and stop including it in books of science. Give up faith in the silly religion of evolutionism, and trust the God of the Bible (who is the Creator of this universe and will be your Judge, and mine, one day soon) to forgive you and to save you from the coming judgment on man’s sin."

I somehow doubt this guy is going to ever pay out; proof to him needs to come direct from God
 
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One other point (can you tell I feel strongly about this? :) )

Our world is governed by a number of scientific constants: the speed of light, the gravitational constant, and so on. Several scientists have pointed out that if any one of these constants is changed by even the smallest amount, the universe would not exist, our solar system would not exist, and life would not exist. This is just one of several interesting facts that led to the current push for Intelligent Design as an alternative hypothesis to evolution.
 
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I don't see any harm in being taught Intelligent Design, but not in a science lesson. It was a part of my A-Level modules and I own a few books where Hume basically destroys the theory, but many of his arguments can be applied to evolution.

It simply makes more sense to base an assumption on empirical data of a theoretical.
 
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goldctrsteve said:
By any measure of the scientific method, evolution remains a hypothesis. It is a good working hypothesis, but facts are forever contradicting it. No respectable scientist can honestly claim that it is yet a reliable theory.
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Well I have a degree in Zoology (If we're putting our marks on the ground :-)) and studied palaeontology and evolutionary theory for two years and I need you to provide evidence for that statement because I have a bit of a problem with it; scientifically speaking!
 
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cjd said:
goldctrsteve said:
I have a degree in Zoology (If we're putting our marks on the ground :-)) and studied palaeontology and evolutionary theory for two years and I need you to provide evidence for that statement because I have a bit of a problem with it; scientifically speaking!
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For sure, and forgive me for stating things in harsh terms. It's a reaction to the ridicule faced today by anyone who so much as suggests that evolution never happened. It seems that, these days, we have to make extreme statements in order to be heard. In no way do I mean to insult fellow scientists who hold different opinions. I respect them all.

Rather than dive into specific arguments at this forum, let me quote from a reasonably objective website: http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php .

"Since Discovery Institute first published its statement of dissent from Darwin in 2001, more than 300 scientists have courageously stepped forward and signed onto a growing list of scientists of all disciplines voicing their skepticism over the central tenets of Darwin's theory of evolution. The full statement signed by the biologists reads: "We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged." Such prominent biologists who have signed the list include evolutionary biologist and textbook author Dr. Stanley Salthe, quantum chemist Henry Schaefer at the University of Georgia, and Giuseppe Sermonti the Editor of Rivista di Biologia / Biology Forum. The list of biologists also includes scientists from Princeton, Cornell, UC Berkeley, UCLA, Ohio State University, Purdue and University of Washington among others."

...and yes, I realise that they refer to evolution as a theory!
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Looking at some of the little monkeys on here I should be pro evolution but I'm not. In his book as well, Darwin actually states that he believes there is a God., or that he couldn't rule a out the fact that a greater being was at work. Can't remember which but he said one of them. hic, hic!
Work that one out!


Nic :wink:
 
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MacMyDay wrote:
Fraid I'm an atheist, so evolution.
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Evolution for me too but I'm not an atheist, I was brought up a Catholic.

I don't know much about ID as I've only read a little bit about it so for the time being I remain sceptical.
 
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But we don't practice Darwinism, but evolution ;)

The theory has progressed since then into Dawkins own ideology and a colloboration of many others. I'm sure one of the grads will no more info.

Wittgenstein produced one of the most prolific pieces of philosophy in the 20th century that attacked Gods existence through logic, but had a catholic burial.
 
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Let me throw into the pot some wonderful quotes from Albert Einstein:

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

"I am convinced that God does not play dice."

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."

"No, this trick won't work...How on earth are you ever going to explain in terms of chemistry and physics so important a biological phenomenon as first love?"

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."

"The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax."
 
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Fantastic subject! One of my new year objectives is to find a religious person and spend a couple of hours finding out why they 'believe'.

Can someone summarise, in bullet points, reasons to believe in evolution and reasons to believe in ID please?

(Before you say it isn't that simple, try harder!)

Hayles
 
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Evolution is going in reverse and this thread proves it:

Mac was born a man, but chose to be a monkey (evolution going backwards)

Mac the Monkey earlier said:

Don't think my GCSEs could manage to do that.
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Yet the other day he said he had three A Levels. (his education is going backwards)

Also, have you noticed how young he looks to be having all that experience? I reckon he started out in business at 35 and is now 19.
(age going backwards)

So a bit of reverse evolution going on here :P

I am sure I saw him in Marks and Spencers last week trying on a school blazer and some grey shorts.
 
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Oi Agri, dont be nasty.

Anyway's where have you been? Noticed your plough has been redundant for a while.


Nic :wink:
 
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My A-Levels weren't in science. I can't see a philosophy, politics or psychology A-Level being able to prove evolution.
 
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Hayles said:
Can someone summarise, in bullet points, reasons to believe in evolution and reasons to believe in ID please?
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Only two bullet points are needed:

- Forget the commentators. Forget prevailing opinion. Put aside the philosophical debate. Instead, just look at the facts. Do they support or contradict either hypothesis?

- A theory can predict behaviour correctly. Can either of the two hypotheses predict something correctly that we have yet to observe?

By the way, it's interesting that you choose the word 'believe'. Someone can accept either hypothesis without it contradicting their 'belief' in a particular world-view.
 
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Hayles it's simple. Study the bible and then study evolution and make your own mind up.

There is no right or wrong answer, it's a personal choice!


Nic :wink:
 
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So.... do you have to believe in the bible to believe in ID - or can you pick and chose which parts you believe in (which is what seems to happen)?

Do you have to believe in God to believe in ID?

Do you have to believe in the bible to believe in God?

How do you believe in God if you believe in evolution? Surely by believing in evolution you're saying the bible is wrong (so, back to question one).

I'm asking this in a genuine way - not putting either side of the argument down. Just really interested in how and why people have their religious beliefs :D
 
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For many years now I have been questioning what I believe. I used to believe in evolution but the more I think of it the more I doubt it. It seems logical that we canme from apes but there has to be a starting point somewhere. If you place a small baby on the floor and leave it there for a few weeks when you come back you can guarantee that it didn't survive so how could we have managed to live without the help of a higher being? In evolution why did humans suddenly lose the ability to survuve from young even though for millions of years we apparently were able to do this.
Secondly I can put up with one or two coincidences but if you look at our planet solar system then there are a million or so things people class as coincidences. Like we are the exact distance from the sun. We are protected by Jupiter, Our Earth and it's gasses just happen to be the correct amount, any more and Earth would be inhospitiable. There are to many coincidences for me to beleive in Evolution.
Now religion on the other hand is also something I find difficult. I beleive in God but not the Bible, Kurran (or however you spell it :D ). I beleive that over the centuries Religion has spun in the wrong direction. It became a necessity for power and control. It's been manipulated and the truth has been blinded. Therefore I have no religion.
I have decided to love God and within myself worship him in my own way. I am hoping that when I go to the next level when I die God will love me and not cast me away because I failed to go to church every Sunday etc. I'm sure God will be happy for my love no matter how I chose to show it.

I hope that people wll accpet that these are MY views and not a dig or contradiction to other beliefs. The truth is NO ONE knows what really happened or how it happened.

Cheers

Chris :D
 
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There's one thing we must pin down very quickly before we all go barking up random trees.

Evolution says nothing about the existence or non-existence of God or Gods. It can not and will not ever say how the universe was created.

All it does is provide a credible theory as to how the diversity of life on this planet has evolved.

(It's important to understand that when a scientist says theory it means it's as near a fact as is possible - not the layman's idea of a theory which we use as no more than a vague idea.)

Evolution gets into trouble only with those that believe strictly in a biblical God who is said to have made the world in 7 days about 5000 (or some such number) years ago. Which is palpable and provable nonsense.

It is perfectly possible to believe in both God and Evolution without any contradition at all and many do.

It is not possible to believe in Evolution and Creationism simultaneously - one is an error - which is what all the hooha is about.
 
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Freecybermag, Im with you. At the end of the day God knows whats in your heart.


Nic :wink:
 
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Hayles said:
But which/who's facts should we look at? :?:
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OK, if you want to be specific...

1) No single life-form of the billions that have existed since evolution was first postulated has evolved between species.

2) There is no fossil evidence of one species evolving into another. As a simple example, reptiles and mammals have different numbers of upper and lower jaw bones, yet there is no evidence of any creature with evolving jaw bones (and I'd love to watch it eat).

3) Many of the statements we have about the evolution of human life are based on questionable interpretations of teeth or jaw bones (not complete specimens).

4) There is much evidence that contradicts the timeline of evolution, such as the coexistence of human and dinosaur footprints in the same strata.

5) In favour of intelligent design, I would propose the existence and remarkable coincidence of scientific constants (as mentioned previously).

Unfortunately, we're not going to resolve anything in this discussion. Each of us will, understandably, post information that supports our viewpoint. The debate will continue for years. My hope is that we'll want to get at the truth and not let majority opinion go unchallenged.

Incidentally, my local county tried to add stickers at the front of evolutionary textbooks that read as follows:

"This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered."

The national media ridiculed the county school district, and the local courts ruled against the stickers. How can anyone, in all good conscience, disagree with the statement? I'm sorry, but true science appears to be the victim in society's debate on this subject.
 
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cjd said:
Evolution gets into trouble only with those that believe strictly in a biblical God who is said to have made the world in 7 days about 5000 (or some such number) years ago. Which is palpable and provable nonsense.
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I was guilty of stating things in an extreme way earlier. Now I suggest that you are too. See what happens when we debate this topic? :)

Evolution is in trouble among some of the world's leading scientists - contrary to what the popular press would have us think.
 
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The VERY BIG problem with intelligent design is that it simply defers the BIG question.

How did complex life come into being?

Evolution - huge amount of time, titchy tiny steps = complex biological beings

ID - complex beings created complex beings, so how did the first set of complex beings come into existence? Evolution? ID? God?
 
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Top Hat said:
The VERY BIG problem with intelligent design is that it simply defers the BIG question.

How did complex life come into being?

Evolution - huge amount of time, titchy tiny steps = complex biological beings

ID - complex beings created complex beings, so how did the first set of complex beings come into existence? Evolution? ID? God?
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I agree completely. It's all depends on your world-view.

We have to accept that we are bound within the dimension of time. Should we assume that all life forms are? Is it possible that a life form could exist outside of time and therefore had no need to come into existence? Unfortunately, smart as we are, we can't think outside the realm of our current existence.
 
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