Europe should we stay in or get out?

[Deleted member 226268]

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GOOD OLD PAT .......

He say's it all...as it is.

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[ShirleyM]

The debate about the referendum in the House of Lords is quite interesting, especially the speech by Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con). Here is an extract, followed by the link to all the speeches:

"My role in Vote Leave was very low down the food chain. I found myself down in North Devon delivering leaflets; we did not even have enough people to canvass properly, so all we could do was deliver leaflets. At one house I called at, the bloke was just coming out and I said, as I did to many others: “Are you going to vote leave on Thursday?”. His response was: “No, certainly not, you racist”. I mumbled something about control of immigration, and he said: “Goodbye, racist.”. This raises an interesting question, to which I should very much like a response from the Minister when she winds up. Is hate crime extended to people who call old-age pensioners racist for delivering leaflets and asking them if they are going to vote leave on Thursday? Is that a hate crime? I did not bother the Devon and Cornwall Police with the matter, but it strikes me as slightly concerning, whichever way we look at it."

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords...653000128/OutcomeOfTheEuropeanUnionReferendum

 

[john1989]

The debate about the referendum in the House of Lords is quite interesting, especially the speech by Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con). Here is an extract, followed by the link to all the speeches:

"My role in Vote Leave was very low down the food chain. I found myself down in North Devon delivering leaflets; we did not even have enough people to canvass properly, so all we could do was deliver leaflets. At one house I called at, the bloke was just coming out and I said, as I did to many others: “Are you going to vote leave on Thursday?”. His response was: “No, certainly not, you racist”. I mumbled something about control of immigration, and he said: “Goodbye, racist.”. This raises an interesting question, to which I should very much like a response from the Minister when she winds up. Is hate crime extended to people who call old-age pensioners racist for delivering leaflets and asking them if they are going to vote leave on Thursday? Is that a hate crime? I did not bother the Devon and Cornwall Police with the matter, but it strikes me as slightly concerning, whichever way we look at it."

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords...653000128/OutcomeOfTheEuropeanUnionReferendum

This type of behaviour is an every day occurrence.

 

[BristolBiz]

There is plenty of precedent and a reasonable argument to be made for dismissing the result of the referendum as too close, or simply considering it an indicator for "no action needed".

Many people feel disenfranchised already, do you seriously think this is a good way forward?

 

[japancool]

Who decides how representative a result must be to be representative enough then?

 

[RedOnion]

Who decides how representative a result must be to be representative enough then?

Good question - which I don;t know the answer too.

However, shouldn't that decision be made before the referendum and not after?

 

[japancool]

Good question - which I don;t know the answer too.

However, shouldn't that decision be made before the referendum and not after?

It was, and it was decided that it would be a simple majority vote.

No one seemed to object at the time.

 

[Newchodge]

It was, and it was decided that it would be a simple majority vote.

No one seemed to object at the time.

That's because no one thought the matter through. Cameron called the referendum to placate the Eurosceptics in his party and prevent Tory voters supporting UKIP. He never gave any thought to the possibility of a Leave result, and neither did anyone else, as far as I can see. Johnson and Gove both looked deeply shocked by the result, and, although Farrage was exultant he appears to have realised that, for him, the war is now over.

If you compare both the timetable and the formal documentation produced with what happened in the Scottish Independence referendum, it is obvious that the political idiots gave the matter virtually no thought.

 

[Nochexman]

Who decides how representative a result must be to be representative enough then?

Parliament.

 

[japancool]

Parliament.

They decided that a simple majority is enough.

 

[japancool]

That's because no one thought the matter through. Cameron called the referendum to placate the Eurosceptics in his party and prevent Tory voters supporting UKIP. He never gave any thought to the possibility of a Leave result, and neither did anyone else, as far as I can see. Johnson and Gove both looked deeply shocked by the result, and, although Farrage was exultant he appears to have realised that, for him, the war is now over.

If you compare both the timetable and the formal documentation produced with what happened in the Scottish Independence referendum, it is obvious that the political idiots gave the matter virtually no thought.

They didn't think about it because they were overconfident that they would win, but that's by-the-by. You can't change the rules retrospectively because the result didn't go the way you wanted.

I mean, that petition that was hijacked was created by a Leave supporter who thought his side would lose!

 

[Newchodge]

They didn't think about it because they were overconfident that they would win, but that's by-the-by. You can't change the rules retrospectively because the result didn't go the way you wanted.

I mean, that petition that was hijacked was created by a Leave supporter who thought his side would lose!

I fully agree. The result is the result. However, the interesting point will come when parliament has to vote on the details that will have been negotiated.

Interesting times.

 

[Cobby]

The debate about the referendum in the House of Lords is quite interesting, especially the speech by Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con). Here is an extract, followed by the link to all the speeches:

"My role in Vote Leave was very low down the food chain. I found myself down in North Devon delivering leaflets; we did not even have enough people to canvass properly, so all we could do was deliver leaflets. At one house I called at, the bloke was just coming out and I said, as I did to many others: “Are you going to vote leave on Thursday?”. His response was: “No, certainly not, you racist”. I mumbled something about control of immigration, and he said: “Goodbye, racist.”. This raises an interesting question, to which I should very much like a response from the Minister when she winds up. Is hate crime extended to people who call old-age pensioners racist for delivering leaflets and asking them if they are going to vote leave on Thursday? Is that a hate crime? I did not bother the Devon and Cornwall Police with the matter, but it strikes me as slightly concerning, whichever way we look at it."

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords...653000128/OutcomeOfTheEuropeanUnionReferendum

That's not very interesting at all.

 

[Cobby]

Many people feel disenfranchised already, do you seriously think this is a good way forward?

Yes. Do you think sacrificing the economic stability of the country is a good exchange for making a few people feel a little better for a couple of months?

 

[john1989]

Yes. Do you think sacrificing the economic stability of the country is a good exchange for making a few people feel a little better for a couple of months?

By a few people, do you mean the majority of those that voted?

 

[Cobby]

They didn't think about it because they were overconfident that they would win, but that's by-the-by. You can't change the rules retrospectively because the result didn't go the way you wanted.

The "rules"? It was an advisory, non-binding referendum to take the mood of the people on a very specific topic. With such a narrow result, it's an arguably split vote.

I mean, that petition that was hijacked was created by a Leave supporter who thought his side would lose!

The petition was *CREATED* by a Leave supporter who was getting ready to create merry hell in case his side lost, because he, quite rightly, wanted the government to only act upon a 'clear majority', not a 'simple majority'.

 

[Cobby]

By a few people, do you mean the majority of those that voted?

No. The post spoke about our politicians doing something within the scope of their remit with our sovereign democracy that might upset 'the disenfranchised'. That was the group to whom I was referring. A few, some, not a significant number.

So you don't appear to making an argument here unless you are arguing that all Leave voters are 'disenfranchised', and thus implying that the vote to leave the EU was in fact nothing to do with EU membership and simply an expression of dissatisfaction with our own political system. In which case I would agree with you, as it's a very believable scenario, and I'd alter my previous argument accordingly.

 

[quikshop]

With such a narrow result, it's an arguably split vote.

1.25 million. More than the population of Birmingham. More than the entire urban conurbation of Glasgow. More than the entire population of Nottingham and Leicester urban areas combined.

The antidote to EU centralism is democracy. It is also the bane of liberal elites and national socialists everywhere.

 

[BristolBiz]

Yes. Do you think sacrificing the economic stability of the country is a good exchange for making a few people feel a little better for a couple of months?

What economic stability? Is tying our economy to the collective fates of Greece, Portugal, Italy etc. a good idea then?

Democracy tends to make people feel better for longer than a couple of months.

 

[MBE1]

For a start, few are genuine refugees. The majority are economic migrants and are young single males, not families. For once, I agreed with Cameron that they should be returned to Syria, or whichever homeland they come from, and supported in a safe area there, or even in a neighboring Muslim country.

It is the behaviour of these so-called refugees that causes the problem. It doesn't matter whether they come from Syria, or the Antarctic. We should not invite in anyone who does not respect our western way of life. The devastation and fear they have caused is totally unacceptable. Sweden and Germany are now the rape capitals of the world, thanks to Merkel's undemocratic invitation. The police and press in Germany have been silenced, as happened with the Rotherham grooming gang in the UK. you need to look beyond the main stream media to get a view of what is really happening in the EU.

Many EU countries are calling for their own referendums and many EU citizens are hoping Brexit will pave the way.

ShirleyM got a lot of flack for this post.... seems it was totally spot on according to the French Intelligence chief Patrick Calvar...

"
France is on the verge of a 'civil war' which could be sparked by the mass sexual assault of women by migrants similar to the one seen in Cologne on New Year's Eve, the country's head of intelligence has said.

He believes the situation is so tense and fragile that another major Islamist terror attack or mass migrant sexual assault could lead to a huge right-wing backlash.

Patrick Calvar, chief of the Directorate General of Internal Security, told members of the French parliamentary commission: 'We are on the brink of civil war'.

According to French newspaper Le Figaro, he said: 'This confrontation I think it will take place.

'Even one or two attacks and it will happen. It therefore behooves us to anticipate and block all these groups.'

Yesterday a leaked report revealed a staggering 1,200 women were sexually abused in German cities during the New Year's Eve celebrations.

The police document said detectives believe 2,000 men were involved across various cities but that the bulk of the crimes were committed in Cologne and Hamburg, where 600 and 400 sexual assaults on women were reported respectively.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-intelligence-chief-warns.html#ixzz4EACoxFpd
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook"

 

[quikshop]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...s-embraces-project-optimism-in-brexit-u-turn/

You mean the coordinated campaign to scare the British public into voting Remain was after all a coordinated campaign to scare the British public into voting Remain??? I am surprised

 

[Ian J]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...s-embraces-project-optimism-in-brexit-u-turn/

Scott Copywriter take note

"Europe’s largest industrial combine has vowed to press ahead with investment in Britain despite the vote to leave the EU, backing away deftly from earlier suggestions that Brexit would cause a painful freeze on new activities.

Joe Kaeser, the chief executive of Siemens, said the German engineering and technology giant remains fully committed to the UK whatever happens, but called on Theresa May to clarify Britain's post-Brexit trade vision as soon as possible and tell the world what kind of country it will become.

“We’re here for the long-term and we don’t let ourselves get jerked up and down. We’re staying because the UK is a good place to do business,” he said.

Mr Kaeser said trade barriers for digital products are unthinkable in the internet age and called for common sense to prevail on tariffs, a refrain now heard daily from German exporters and the country’s industry federation (BDI).

He exhorted political leaders to “calm down” and work out a sensible settlement in the common interest. “Don’t go overboard. The UK is still going to be in geographic Europe. This is a balanced scenario of power,” he said."

 

[Newchodge]

ShirleyM got a lot of flack for this post.... seems it was totally spot on according to the French Intelligence chief Patrick Calvar...

"
France is on the verge of a 'civil war' which could be sparked by the mass sexual assault of women by migrants similar to the one seen in Cologne on New Year's Eve, the country's head of intelligence has said.

He believes the situation is so tense and fragile that another major Islamist terror attack or mass migrant sexual assault could lead to a huge right-wing backlash.

Patrick Calvar, chief of the Directorate General of Internal Security, told members of the French parliamentary commission: 'We are on the brink of civil war'.

According to French newspaper Le Figaro, he said: 'This confrontation I think it will take place.

'Even one or two attacks and it will happen. It therefore behooves us to anticipate and block all these groups.'

Yesterday a leaked report revealed a staggering 1,200 women were sexually abused in German cities during the New Year's Eve celebrations.

The police document said detectives believe 2,000 men were involved across various cities but that the bulk of the crimes were committed in Cologne and Hamburg, where 600 and 400 sexual assaults on women were reported respectively.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-intelligence-chief-warns.html#ixzz4EACoxFpd
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook"

He is not saying that mass migrant sexual assault has happened in France.

 

[Newchodge]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...s-embraces-project-optimism-in-brexit-u-turn/

You mean the coordinated campaign to scare the British public into voting Remain was after all a coordinated campaign to scare the British public into voting Remain??? I am surprised

Well some of it appears to be true:
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...ecause-of-post-brexit-funding-fears?CMP=fb_gu

 

[quikshop]

Well some of it appears to be true:
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...ecause-of-post-brexit-funding-fears?CMP=fb_gu

"coming under pressure to"
"being asked to"
"Doubts over"
"anecdotal evidence"

Just another Remainiacs-Remorse article full of fear and loathing, and no doubt some wishful thinking from academics so they can have their "I told you so" moment during their evening meal.

 

[Ian J]

Well some of it appears to be true:
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...ecause-of-post-brexit-funding-fears?CMP=fb_gu

Good old Grauniad scratching around for scare stories. They are obviously not going to buy into Project Optimism

 

[Newchodge]

Wonderful piece from the BBC about people with firm beliefs cannot accept evidence that refutes those beliefs. It was written about Blair and the war, but I reckon it applies to many on both sides of the referendum argument.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36744911

 

[MBE1]

He is not saying that mass migrant sexual assault has happened in France.

When did I ever say he did?

 

[Newchodge]

You said that Shirley M was spot on because of the quote you used. Which does not indicate that Shirley M was spot on. It said nothing about the supposed correlation between EU migration and mass migrant sexual assault.

 

[MBE1]

You said that Shirley M was spot on because of the quote you used. Which does not indicate that Shirley M was spot on. It said nothing about the supposed correlation between EU migration and mass migrant sexual assault.

Ahhh, now I see what you are saying. Maybe you need to read the article a bit more clearly.

"He believes the situation is so tense and fragile that another major Islamist terror attack or mass migrant sexual assault could lead to a huge right-wing backlash.

Yesterday a leaked report revealed a staggering 1,200 women were sexually abused in German cities during the New Year's Eve celebrations.

The police document said detectives believe 2,000 men were involved across various cities but that the bulk of the crimes were committed in Cologne and Hamburg, where 600 and 400 sexual assaults on women were reported respectively."

Shirley M never stated a correlation to my knowledge, she did say that migrants not respecting western values should not be allowed to enter the EU, from wherever they were from, and that those that do not respect such values had led to devastation and fear. Now that description seems fair for such mass rape attacks, not all were probably carried out by economic migrants, but plenty were, as the above leaked report attests too.

The only line I could see possibly causing confusion was "It is the behaviour of these so called migrants..", which I take to mean the few carrying out these attacks, but I imagine you might be drawing the conclusion it was meant to mean all of them.

Either way, I think anyone would find it hard to argue that many migrants have failed to abide by western standards in how women should be treated in much higher proportions than would be expected due to different attitudes to womens status in society, which has led to special security measures in places such as swimming pools, and thats before the problem of raping young males is even taken into account.

 

[Cobby]

1.25 million. More than the population of Birmingham. More than the entire urban conurbation of Glasgow. More than the entire population of Nottingham and Leicester urban areas combined.

It's a 4% margin. You can stuff as many disingenuous arguments about absolute numbers into the envelope as you like, but when you work with huge representative sets, this is how it works and it's a narrow margin. So narrow in fact, that even your Brexiteer hero Nigel Farage said "that a 48/52 split would not be the end of it".


edit: just as an aside, I quite like the term "remaniac", it nicely summarises your view of the world, but consider dropping from now on as grown-ups are talking

 

[Cobby]

What economic stability?

I know, it seems such a long time ago now doesn't it.

Democracy tends to make people feel better for longer than a couple of months.

Let me know which form of Democracy you think would work best and we can all campaign to try it!

 

[BristolBiz]

Let me know which form of Democracy you think would work best and we can all campaign to try it! [/QUOTE]

Good point, one of the undoubted benefits of this referendum is that it's got people thinking about the opportunities (or lack of) that this situation creates. Our next General Election should throw up some interesting visions of the future now we have thrown off our European shackles

 

[simon field]

...even your Brexiteer hero Nigel Farage...

...grown-ups are talking ...

I know you love pointing out irony....

 

[Cobby]

I know you love pointing out irony....

Was he not a hero for the Leave campaign? I'm pretty sure he was.

 

[simon field]

*your brexiteering hero* just seems a tad 'sneery' to me, slightly indicative of an immature attitude. But hey, I probably just imagined it so let's leave it

Was he not a hero for the Leave campaign? I'm pretty sure he was.

Nah I think you give the guy too much credit tbh. Obviously the fella was plastered all over the media as the 'face' of the leave camp, but I doubt very many people gave him the time of day in terms of making their decision (Apart from of course some of the people who go on the telly so the news can have meaty content) It was just waffle, white noise.

Hope that helps?

 

[Ian J]

Obviously the fella was plastered all over the media as the 'face' of the leave camp,

But he wasn't a part of the official leave campaign at all so anyone that took notice of what he said shouldn't have done

 

[simon field]

Exactly. Nobody I know who voted out even mentioned the bloke.

 

[Cobby]

Nah I think you give the guy too much credit tbh. Obviously the fella was plastered all over the media as the 'face' of the leave camp, but I doubt very many people gave him the time of day in terms of making their decision (Apart from of course some of the people who go on the telly so the news can have meaty content) It was just waffle, white noise.

I disagree. He was a very vocal part of the campaign, with an awful lot of campaigning on social media behind him. As the most vocal member who was also an MEP he got coverage from many different angles. The 'official' campaign may have been Boris', but the media frenzy behind that was inextricably tied with the Tory party divisions, and, single issue 'politician' that he is, Farage had been and continued to lead the charge.

Consider also the turning point for the official Leave campaign a couple of weeks before the vote when they realised they could not win the economic argument so moved their campaign in line with Farage's and placed far greater focus on immigration.

You could reasonably argue that perhaps he wasn't the Leave 'hero', but there's no ground to argue he was any less than an integral part of the narrative.

But he wasn't a part of the official leave campaign at all so anyone that took notice of what he said shouldn't have done

Are you being serious?

 

[Ian J]

Are you being serious?

I don't wish to be banned from this site so just read my mind