Europe should we stay in or get out?

[Ian J]

Many of these examples are the dishonest Tories who have always been prepared to lie their way to power.

Hmmmmm. We'll see who the liars are when the Chilcott report is published

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

To be honest, I've always thought the

The Constituency Under New Tories... was a dream come true...

Then I realised what a bunch of ***** they were!!



*walks away from thread - trolled enough of the Government - where's the playground! Woohooooooooo hooooo*

 

[Newchodge]

Hmmmmm. We'll see who the liars are when the Chilcott report is published

I fully expect it to expose the Labour party, and particularly its leadership. That is why there is the coup against Corbyn now.

 

[sirearl]

I fully expect it to expose the Labour party, and particularly its leadership. That is why there is the coup against Corbyn now.

I expect all MP's to be white washed and the blame to fall on misformation from the security minions.

 

[Ian J]

I expect all MP's to be white washed and the blame to fall on misformation from the security minions.

Or else some unfortunate MP who has conveniently died in the interim

 

[Nochexman]

I expect all MP's to be white washed and the blame to fall on misformation from the security minions.

I won't be surprised if publication is delayed again

 

[Cobby]

For the sake of anyone who didn't see the post that I was responding to from Mr Black Pot I have quoted his insightful and useful post below:-

Mr Pot. You truly are black

*sigh* Right, since context and meaning seem to be an issue, let's lay it out.

If from that moment on Cameron & Co had conducted an honest and honourable campaign

This is a clip from your post where you claim, with a straight face, that the Remain campaign had been deliberately dishonest, without so much as a nod to how a few exaggerated claims from the Remain campaign was completely overshadowed by the lies and xenophobia of the Leave campaign. So I communicated that by laying it on a bit thick about the irony of your post and implied you were something of a hypocrite for posting it.

That's only to be expected if you live under a bridge

This is not you making an argument as you seem to think. This is just you calling me a troll.

Can you perhaps see the difference between these two exchanges?

The Leave campaign continued to peddle the £350m lie after it was publicly disproven, and used nazi-esque propaganda to conflate refugees in another country with NHS underperformance. The Remain campaign made some possibly overblown statements about further austerity which is not even in the same league. If you genuinely and honestly think these things are comparable, put your logic to work and try to make an argument for it. If you can't, then please continue to call me a troll because you'll be making my point for me.

 

[john1989]

*sigh* Right, since context and meaning seem to be an issue, let's lay it out.


This is a clip from your post where you claim, with a straight face, that the Remain campaign had been deliberately dishonest, without so much as a nod to how a few exaggerated claims from the Remain campaign was completely overshadowed by the lies and xenophobia of the Leave campaign. So I communicated that by laying it on a bit thick about the irony of your post and implied you were something of a hypocrite for posting it.


This is not you making an argument as you seem to think. This is just you calling me a troll.

Can you perhaps see the difference between these two exchanges?

The Leave campaign continued to peddle the £350m lie after it was publicly disproven, and used nazi-esque propaganda to conflate refugees in another country with NHS underperformance. The Remain campaign made some possibly overblown statements about further austerity which is not even in the same league. If you genuinely and honestly think these things are comparable, put your logic to work and try to make an argument for it. If you can't, then please continue to call me a troll because you'll be making my point for me.

Did you not see the remain telling us we would be living in World War 3 now and the NHS would have collapsed overnight?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Did you not see the remain telling us we would be living in World War 3 now and the NHS would have collapsed overnight?

You could easily look it up. It was an interviewer who said it after a reasonable reply from Cameron about how WW 1 and 2 had devastated Europe. The interviewer's logic was bizarre.

 

[Ian J]

Did you not see the remain telling us we would be living in World War 3 now and the NHS would have collapsed overnight?

Or that Osborne would have to hold an emergency budget to raise taxes and slash public spending if we voted to leave the EC

Or that leaving the EC would cost each family an extra £4,300 per year

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Or that Osborne would have to hold an emergency budget to raise taxes and slash public spending if we voted to leave the EC

Or that leaving the EC would cost each family an extra £4,300 per year

Wait and see.

US and EU banks have lost 165Bn so far. Carney is seeing signs. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...exit-financial-stability-report-a7120261.html

Have you looked at the pound against the Euro and Dollar today. That will put up the cost of imports and holidays. A quick one week break in Spain next week is likely to cost me about £500 plus more than it would have last year.

 

[ShirleyM]

I've stopped looking at pro-EU rags, ie. the Independent and The Guardian, now we've won the referendum and are Leaving the EU.

Austria have a big petition to ask for an EU referendum. They may be the next to Leave.
https://www.rt.com/news/271279-austria-petition-eu-exit/

October 2nd, is the date Hungary has a referendum to challenge the immigration quota imposed by Brussels:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/686379/Hungary-EU-referendum-October-enforced-migrant-quotas

 

[Cobby]

Says who? 40,000 odd protesters against democracy, or the "millions" who signed the rigged petition? 40,000 You do understand that's less than 0.03% of those that voted to remain. That doesn't make a majority of anything.

"Says who" what? Perhaps my language was too ambiguous, my apologies.

Leave voters keep saying things like "Remain voters should just accept it" or "Remain voters are all having tantrums". Please refer back through this thread and perhaps to your own facebook page to see this.
There are many Remain voters who are still complaining; from my own personal experience almost everyone I know (including my customers) who voted Remain are disgruntled as such, large and vocal swathes of the internet community as well, and of course the protestors and those who marched. It's fair to presume that the vocal members of any particular group aren't unique in an opinion, and that some measure of the non-vocal members of the common group also share that opinion.
I am arguing they have a valid grievance, but this section of Leave voters ignore that.

When I mentioned 'Remain being arguably the majority' I am referring to the extremely narrow margin of victory for the Leave campaign - so narrow in fact that prominent Leave campaigner Nigel Farage declared that a result that narrow would, and I quote, "not be the end of it". Some estimates put figures to those who would change their votes as around 7% from the Leave side, and 2% from the Remain side. A little maths swings that back in favour of Remain with an even narrower 51% to 49%.
I would therefore also argue that the government cannot, or perhaps should not, act upon such a narrow and uncertain measure of the populace, *especially* when there is little-to-no evidence for a direct or measurable beneficial outcome and some stronger evidence suggesting harmful outcomes.

Does that clear it up for you?

Two lies come to mind that, unlike the remains "predictions", have come true already.

1 - I shall remain as PM no matter what the outcome and carry out the wishes of the people.

2 - If the event of a Brexit there will be a emergency budget within weeks.

These are about party politics and personal political ambition, they are not "lies" regarding Britain's membership of the EU.

 

[john1989]

"Says who" what? Perhaps my language was too ambiguous, my apologies.

Leave voters keep saying things like "Remain voters should just accept it" or "Remain voters are all having tantrums". Please refer back through this thread and perhaps to your own facebook page to see this.
There are many Remain voters who are still complaining; from my own personal experience almost everyone I know (including my customers) who voted Remain are disgruntled as such, large and vocal swathes of the internet community as well, and of course the protestors and those who marched. It's fair to presume that the vocal members of any particular group aren't unique in an opinion, and that some measure of the non-vocal members of the common group also share that opinion.
I am arguing they have a valid grievance, but this section of Leave voters ignore that.

When I mentioned 'Remain being arguably the majority' I am referring to the extremely narrow margin of victory for the Leave campaign - so narrow in fact that prominent Leave campaigner Nigel Farage declared that a result that narrow would, and I quote, "not be the end of it". Some estimates put figures to those who would change their votes as around 7% from the Leave side, and 2% from the Remain side. A little maths swings that back in favour of Remain with an even narrower 51% to 49%.
I would therefore also argue that the government cannot, or perhaps should not, act upon such a narrow and uncertain measure of the populace, *especially* when there is little-to-no evidence for a direct or measurable beneficial outcome and some stronger evidence suggesting harmful outcomes.

Does that clear it up for you?



These are about party politics and personal political ambition, they are not "lies" regarding Britain's membership of the EU.

If I go to work and punch my boss, I must live with the consequences.

If I run over my neighbours cat, I must live with the consequences.

If I vote and later change my mind, I must live with the consequences.

If you are easily swayed by people on social media or what you see in third rate newspapers, you are not the sort of person that should be voting anyway.

If we held another referendum, where does it stop? Best out of 3?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

*especially* when there is little-to-no evidence for a direct or measurable beneficial outcome and some stronger evidence suggesting harmful outcomes.

Harmful outcomes are already here.

Benefits do not seem be appearing unless you count the resignation of Farrago.

 

[Ian J]

Have you looked at the pound against the Euro and Dollar today. That will put up the cost of imports and holidays. A quick one week break in Spain next week is likely to cost me about £500 plus more than it would have last year.

How come?

A flight to Malaga next Wednesday returning a week later will cost just over £100 with Jet2 and holidays next week are actually so cheap that I was thinking of grabbing one.

I went to Menorca for a week in the run up to the referendum staying in a villa and eating out most nights. I took £1,000 of Euros with me at a time when the pound was higher than it is now and it bought me just over 1,200 Euros. At today's exchange rate it would have bought me 1,160 Euros so hardly a staggering difference

 

[Cobby]

Did you not see the remain telling us we would be living in World War 3 now and the NHS would have collapsed overnight?

I recall there was a warning of possible war on the horizon without the EU which, since the EU has been a driving force for the peace we have seen over the past 50 years is not an unreasonable warning. The Leave campaign exaggerated this into 'world war 3'. So even some of the Remain 'lies' are actually Leave lies? Interesting.

I don't recall anything about the NHS collapsing overnight, happy to follow a link.

Or that Osborne would have to hold an emergency budget to raise taxes and slash public spending if we voted to leave the EC

Or that leaving the EC would cost each family an extra £4,300 per year

Which of these is a lie, and which is a speculation?
"There could be serious spending cuts to bring up the shortfall from economic damage."
"We are giving £350m per week to the EU."

 

[Toby Willows]

When I mentioned 'Remain being arguably the majority' I am referring to the extremely narrow margin of victory for the Leave campaign - so narrow in fact that prominent Leave campaigner Nigel Farage declared that a result that narrow would, and I quote, "not be the end of it". Some estimates put figures to those who would change their votes as around 7% from the Leave side, and 2% from the Remain side. A little maths swings that back in favour of Remain with an even narrower 51% to 49%.

Oh Lord, that is an attempt at humor isn't it? Or have you learn't nothing over the past two weeks? You seriously still putting your faith in poles,surveys and their estimates!!

FYI my estimate is that 52% of those that didn't vote, if forced to would vote leave. Now that's a estimate based on actually recent events. So the leave vote still wins.

 

[Cobby]

I've stopped looking at pro-EU rags, ie. the Independent and The Guardian,

Yes, it seems to be have been a tough thing for the Leave voters to read things that don't comfort them by confirming their already-established viewpoints.

https://www.rt.com/news/271279-austria-petition-eu-exit/

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/686379/Hungary-EU-referendum-October-enforced-migrant-quotas

So your go-to news sources are Vladimir Putin's mouthpiece and one of the least relevant tabloids in the country? That you chose those speaks far more loudly about your judgement than anything you post from them.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Oh Lord, that is an attempt at humor isn't it? Or have you learn't nothing over the past two weeks? You seriously still putting your faith in poles,surveys and their estimates!!

FYI my estimate is that 52% of those that didn't vote, if forced to would vote leave. Now that's a estimate based on actually recent events. So the leave vote still wins.

No offence but your estimation doesn't count for anything that is factual...

Simple matter of fact is the percentage of votes that were missed would never accrue enough to justify a re-count whether they were Leave or Remain votes... therefore doesn't need to have a re-vote... as I said previously though... and I'll always stick by it... whether we stay or go... we're all f*****!

 

[john1989]

I recall there was a warning of possible war on the horizon without the EU which, since the EU has been a driving force for the peace we have seen over the past 50 years is not an unreasonable warning. The Leave campaign exaggerated this into 'world war 3'. So even some of the Remain 'lies' are actually Leave lies? Interesting.

I don't recall anything about the NHS collapsing overnight, happy to follow a link.


Which of these is a lie, and which is a speculation?
"There could be serious spending cuts to bring up the shortfall from economic damage."
"We are giving £350m per week to the EU."

A quick search throws this example up
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/26/nhs-under-threat-from-brexit

 

[Deleted member 59730]

I went to Menorca for a week in the run up to the referendum staying in a villa and eating out most nights. I took £1,000 of Euros with me at a time when the pound was higher than it is now and it bought me just over 1,200 Euros. At today's exchange rate it would have bought me 1,160 Euros so hardly a staggering difference

One year ago the exchange rate was 1.44. Today it is 1.17. Perhaps I spend more than you do.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

A quick search throws this example up
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/26/nhs-under-threat-from-brexit

Where does it say 'overnight' ?

 

[john1989]

Where does it say 'overnight' ?

It's still far more accurate than the 0.6% you quoted in another thread

 

[Toby Willows]

No offence but your estimation doesn't count for anything that is factual...

Simple matter of fact is the percentage of votes that were missed would never accrue enough to justify a re-count whether they were Leave or Remain votes... therefore doesn't need to have a re-vote... as I said previously though... and I'll always stick by it... whether we stay or go... we're all f*****!

That was my point, if we had another vote, the best prediction anyone could make is the result would be the same. You can ponder forever on how many might change but it's all meaningless. The only real variable is those that didn't vote, and the best guess at that is 52/48 in favour of leaving.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

It's still far more accurate than the 0.6% you quoted in another thread

You leavers do not even trust the truth. Its as plain as day here https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...c-spending-was-calculated-in-your-tax-summary

Its less than a cup of coffee a week.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

That was my point, if we had another vote, the best prediction anyone could make is the result would be the same. You can ponder forever on how many might change but it's all meaningless. The only real variable is those that didn't vote, and the best guess at that is 52/48 in favour of leaving.

I haven't yet seen an analysis of those denied the vote. Expats living in Europe who were denied a vote. Expats whose postal votes got lost, young people who were not fully aware that they had been removed from the household roll. and not forgetting long term EU workers in the UK when short term commonwealth citizens did get a vote. The whole franchise was a mess.

 

[john1989]

You leavers do not even trust the truth. Its as plain as day here https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...c-spending-was-calculated-in-your-tax-summary

Its less than a cup of coffee a week.

Sadly it shows out contributions as £3.7b. If you Google it, you will see that this is way off the mark.

 

[Cobby]

A quick search throws this example up
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/26/nhs-under-threat-from-brexit

I saw that but thought "he couldn't mean this, there's nothing so dramatic or hyperbolic in here about 'overnight collapse'.

The response of "with a smaller economy there'll be less public money available and the NHS will suffer" is absolutely reasonable given: a) That's a logical line of thought based on the presumptions of economic damage from experts (don't start on the expert thing again or I'll call you out for stupid strawmen), b) The Tory government have done and will continue to do their best to under-fund it as part of their privatisation ideology, and c) They have already made clear that the money saved from EU payments won't be going to the NHS.

So this is yet another Remain 'lie' that's actually a Leave lie. I wonder how many there are?

If we held another referendum, where does it stop? Best out of 3?

See, you're very concerned with the fact you 'won' and uninterested in why or what you've won. It's not about best-out-of-3, that's childish nonsense, it's the very reasonable argument that such a narrow margin is not representative *enough* to take such drastic, irreversible action, *especially* when lies, etc etc etc etc etc honestly I think I could keep laying this out more and more clearly, over and over until the end of time and some Leave supporter will keep building strawmen around it.

 

[Cobby]

Oh Lord, that is an attempt at humor isn't it? Or have you learn't nothing over the past two weeks? You seriously still putting your faith in poles,surveys and their estimates!!

FYI my estimate is that 52% of those that didn't vote, if forced to would vote leave. Now that's a estimate based on actually recent events. So the leave vote still wins.

"learn't" . Hmm.

Anyway, you seem to have missed the point. I'm not putting my 'faith' in anything with that post. As I said, there is some evidence to suggest the results have shifted *slightly*, and even if not, the rest of the point still stands.

I understand that as you're a very vocal Leave supporter you have an issue with 'evidence' and 'experts' and other such tangible things but they really aren't interchangeable with your 'feelings'.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Sadly it shows out contributions as £3.7b. If you Google it, you will see that this is way off the mark.

So now Google is more accurate than the UK Gov's own figures. You'll be telling me to read the Daily Express for facts next.

 

[john1989]

So now Google is more accurate than the UK Gov's own figures. You'll be telling me to read the Daily Express for facts next.

The government are not known for their honesty and transparency.
They don't even remotely agree with the EU's figures on UK's contributions.

 

[Nochexman]

Sadly it shows out contributions as £3.7b. If you Google it, you will see that this is way off the mark.

Just for completeness, according to https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ the UK's net contribution to the EU was £8.5 billion, which according to the ONS figures https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...c-spending-was-calculated-in-your-tax-summary is about the same as the UK spends on Overseas Aid. Hope this helps. It would have been very interesting to have found out what the UK gets back for its contribution, but alas such information does not appear to be forthcoming.

 

[Toby Willows]

I haven't yet seen an analysis of those denied the vote. Expats living in Europe who were denied a vote. Expats whose postal votes got lost, young people who were not fully aware that they had been removed from the household roll. and not forgetting long term EU workers in the UK when short term commonwealth citizens did get a vote. The whole franchise was a mess.

I agree, but the evidence we have is they would have voted the same, as the only actually evidence out there is the result of the referendum that the majority took part in.

So we had 40,000 odd remain protesters out there, stills leaves in excess of 10,000,000 who didn't vote not protesting. So you could say, on that evidence, that's ten million votes for the leave camp. It's a far more compelling figure, based on some factual numbers, than anything the remain camp has come up with.

Luckily though it's all academic as leave won, and as of last night I've yet to hear one countries leader say "if the uk leave", it's all " when the uk leave". There really is no wriggle room for another referendum. Not if the UK want to have credibility on the world stage that is.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

There really is no wriggle room for another referendum. Not if the UK want to have credibility on the world stage that is.

The UK lost all credibility on the world stage a long time ago. What little vestige was left evaporated with the leave vote.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

So we had 40,000 odd remain protesters out there, stills leaves in excess of 10,000,000 who didn't vote not protesting. So you could say, on that evidence, that's ten million votes for the leave camp. It's a far more compelling figure, based on some factual numbers, than anything the remain camp has come up with.

Sorry, not entirely true... that should read...

So you could say, on that evidence, that's ten million votes for the "couldn't give a toss because we're all f***** anyways camp"

Or

So you could say, on that evidence, that's ten million votes for the "we live on the streets or we live in council properties and because the Government is totally corrupt we live in poverty or extremely close to the breadline... who cares about us? no one... so why should we give a f***! camp...

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Or

More realistically a comment I've heard twice. "The whole thing was so complicated I couldn't understand it so didn't think it fair to vote." One of those said that the TV debates had made it harder to understand.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...te-to-stay-in-the-eu-poll-finds-a7120246.html

 

[Toby Willows]

[QUOTE="atmosbob, post: 2666412, member: 5973[/QUOTE]

There you go, thanks. That's all the prove that's needed to put it to bed once and for all. That is showing remain would win. Just like all the polls in the week before the referendum. So nothing much has changed and the leave vote would still win on that evidence.

It's all a load of bollocks really and the country should just be getting on with Brexit now as that's how the public voted at the time and nothing is going to change that.

 

[Cobby]

I agree, but the evidence we have is they would have voted the same, as the only actually evidence out there is the result of the referendum that the majority took part in.

You're still missing the point and can only presume you are now doing so deliberately.

So we had 40,000 odd remain protesters out there, stills leaves in excess of 10,000,000 who didn't vote not protesting. So you could say, on that evidence, that's ten million votes for the leave camp. It's a far more compelling figure, based on some factual numbers, than anything the remain camp has come up with.

That's completely disingenuous and disregards every step of logical reasoning you could take. Given your continued avoidance of the point, I'm less than surprised.

Luckily though it's all academic as leave won, and as of last night I've yet to hear one countries leader say "if the uk leave", it's all " when the uk leave". There really is no wriggle room for another referendum. Not if the UK want to have credibility on the world stage that is.

The UK's credit rating and markets and currency have taken a beating and it's all over our complete inability to make reliable decisions. The referendum was basically a split vote and has continued to cause uncertainty in markets around the world for exactly the reason you keep avoiding.
There is plenty of precedent and a reasonable argument to be made for dismissing the result of the referendum as too close, or simply considering it an indicator for "no action needed".