Europe should we stay in or get out?

Jul 22, 2015
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I thought it was a no brainer and with such a majority of the population wanting to stay in that is what would happen but have just seen a BBC survey that says it's now 39% out 49% stay in.

That's a lot closer than previous surveys and I suspect the momemtum is now in the get out camp and to a lot of peoples surprise I think that is what will happen. I presume the pictures of people breaking in to lorries at Calais doesn't help the stay in camps cause.

Do you care one way or the other. Does it matter to us small businesses? and if so how?
 

KM-Tiger

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Aug 10, 2003
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I thought it was a no brainer ...
Or simply no brain if you want to stay in?

There are many issues, but one trumps them all IMHO and that is democracy. To vote to stay in is like voting to never have a vote ever again, as the unelected EU govt takes over more and more of our lives.

Don't like what they do? Tough, as a voter you can do nothing at all about it.
 
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Tim Coulter

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Dec 11, 2013
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The unelected EU govt takes over more and more of our lives.

You're absolutely right. This is the core issue and, unfortunately, one that seems to be eluding the attention of the majority of the voting public.

If people really understood how little power and influence remains in the hands of the UK government and how much of their freedom is being eroded by the onslaught of Brussels/Strasbourg legislation perhaps they would vote to get out. Unfortunately, the yes camp seems to have the upper hand, with its relentless use of scare tactics.
 
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Pish_Pash

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Feb 1, 2013
2,582
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Out from me (even though it'll impact me negatively)

The EU project is in tatters...everyone cracks open a cool refreshing Coke & sings "I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony" when things are going well....but as soon as the wheels come of the bus, every EU member hates one another (I think Germans are off Greeks' Xmas card list). The you've got Merkel inviting upto (potentially) 5 million Syrians to Germany (just so she can win a Nobel Peace prize...she certainly won't be picking up the tab or impacted)...& guess where they'll all head once they've gained the necessary paperwork.

Our schools are rammed, our NHS is in tatters...we've a housing shortage....let's get out of there sharpish & start controlling out borders (& putting ourselves first).

IMHO Jean-Claude Juncker is the Sepp Blatter of the political scene.

Not PC...but I'm tired of PC.

(frankly, I'm amazed the polls are so close - what's got to happen before it becomes totally clear to everyone?!)
 
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B

boring-friday

out, I literally can't vote to cast my vote to get out.
With the main reason being that we can't make any of our own laws. As a example I sell e cigs as my main business (I know a lot of people don't like e cigs but I'm sure its just as corrupt with anything else) and from May next year they're making them all pretty much illegal other than the really basic ones that big tobacco companies sell (lol). The UK government think the regulations coming in are unworkable and ridiculous but they have to implement them anyway.
The lowest rate of lung cancer in the EU is in Sweden because they have a low rate of smoking due to a lot of them using snus instead (oral tobacco 1000x times safer than smoking) but guess what? Snus is banned in the EU.

Second reason I just find it ridiculous that anyone in the EU can move here and start claiming benefits or get a minimum wage job, I know a lot of the economic figures show immigration being good for the country but it would be loads better if we could pick and chose who comes and who doesn't.
I find it ridiculous the whole 'multi cultural society' thing that in real life is translated to move a load of Pakistanis,Indians and eastern Europeans who all hate eachother to a council estate and completely overrun any hospitals,doctors,schools.
How can a council/government plan how many houses etc they need to build in a certain area when they have no idea what the population will be in 10 years time?

I also find the whole argument that we'll have to pay extra taxes when we want to export ridiculous, Germany sell loads more to us than we sell to them, do you think they're going to want to pay tax?
 
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M

myfairworld

Important to realise that different people will have different reasons for voting in or out. For example my inclination at present is to vote 'out' partly because democracy is very important to me and I don't regard the EU as democratic in practice even if it is in theory. It also seems to me to add another very expensive layer of government in addition to the huge expense of government at country level.

I might be persuaded to vote for 'stay in', if, for example, all EU government had to be done via internet connection and the jolly of flying to and from here and having expenses for staying here and there was stopped. But then I'm in favour of doing the same for government in the UK, all these MPs claiming for second homes and such is no longer necessary in the internet age not to mention the antics and expense of the House of Lords. I'd give each and every 'Lord' two months to learn how to use a decent home computer and sack any who failed a test at the end of it - just like job seekers lose their benefits if they don't come up to scratch on certain issues.

Personally I'm probably more interested in the rest of the world than I am in Europe and this would suit my own personal business interests. The UK for example has many long term connections with the Indian sub-continent and Africa and so on. However bad these connections may have been in the first place and what ever ill-feelings those early connections may have left behind nevertheless I think in both cultural and business terms it may be easier for a UK business to relate to people in a variety of non EU countries than to relate to some EU countries. I totally accept that for some businesses relationships within the EU may be paramount but it needs to be remembered that for some of us the reverse is true.

It is too easy to assume that anyone who wants to be out of the EU is by definition anti-immigration. Personally I think immigration greatly enriches a society and brings into business some of its most energetic members. Of course sudden large influxes of immigrants can bring problems (mostly these can be dealt with via simple financial measures such as increased funding for schools taking in large numbers of new immigrant pupils, plus there needs to be measures about affordable housing but we desperately need those anyway). Syrians seem to be the new 'threat' at the moment but I'd bet the majority of such refugees would be assets to our society, after all they've already shown their gumption by their attempt to escape and find a new life elsewhere.

In recent years there has been a lot of fuss about Polish and other immigrants to our shores. But you know this is just history repeating itself. After World War 2 many Poles - most of whom had fought with the Allied Forces against Hitler - settled here and forged a new life for themselves.

My point is simply don't assume that anyone inclined to vote 'out' necessarily is considering it to keep out immigrants or whatever. For some of us the issues are slightly more subtle.
 
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bharris

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Dec 30, 2014
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For me it will make little difference on a day to day basis if we leave, other than i will have to fill in more customs labels for the old EU orders. I cant see how the loss of trade will really happen as no one in say France would buy form the UK now if they couldn't buy the item in their own county for the same price, so in or out how does that make a difference? It may make it harder for large organisations to move money from to another country to avoid paying tax. So perhaps voting out looks more attractive...
Charities and farmers might be effected as they get EU grants.
 
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Mr A P Davies

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Sep 16, 2015
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Stay in. Maybe I'm a little biased, but as it is, I live in Wales, not that I give a stuff about being welsh. Wales is just a welfare state, surviving on handouts from Europe. Any real economy is so small, that if the European money disappears. things will get real bad, real quick.
The Welsh parliament has shown itself to be incapable of even administrating the state, let alone running a country. It could be good, it's not, it terrible.
 
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Out for me.


‘Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.’
Jean Monnet
 
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Newchodge

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    I never quite understand the argument that 'we' should make our own laws, but can't influence the EU law makers. Who genuinely thinks we can influence the Westminster lawmakers in any way that matters?
     
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    Pish_Pash

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    Feb 1, 2013
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    Stay in. Maybe I'm a little biased, but as it is, I live in Wales, not that I give a stuff about being welsh. Wales is just a welfare state, surviving on handouts from Europe. Any real economy is so small, that if the European money disappears. things will get real bad, real quick..

    A refreshingly honest post from someone who is Welsh! (same could be applied to Scotland .... it might be worth us leaving just to see the obnoxious/smug Salmond & Sturgeon eat humble pie)....oh, btw what was Leanne Wood doing at the leaders debate prior to the elections? Talk about a gatecrasher!

    I cant see how the loss of trade will really happen as no one in say France would buy form the UK now if they couldn't buy the item in their own county for the same price, so in or out how does that make a difference?

    ^^^^ This.
    Case closed.

    Re farmers & farm subsidies (loss of)....awww shame, has anyone ever seen a poor farmer? They could always sell up & release their multi million pound assets.
     
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    A

    Andrew Chambers

    Farmers could still have their subsidies, every penny we get back from the EU could still be paid and it would cost us less than we currently pay in. We can't lose financially by leaving, which will be why they will want us to stay.
     
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    KM-Tiger

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    Who genuinely thinks we can influence the Westminster lawmakers in any way that matters?
    Err ... they are called General Elections. As voters we have the power to confirm or remove a govt. The General Elections of 1979, 1997, and 2010 had huge influence over lawmakers.

    As voters we have no power at all over the EU govt. The so called EU parliament is a sham. The only parliament in the world that has no power at all to propose or repeal legislation.
     
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    This whole issue is irrelevant, superfluous and redundant. It is also completely uninformed, both here and elsewhere.

    We can no more leave Europe, than you can recover your status as a virgin. Once you're in, you're in! Busta!

    There was a strong argument for not joining in the first place, but join we did and now it is too late to unjoin!

    Nearly all the other leaders and their lieutenants have told us in very strong terms that if we decide to leave, we could indeed enjoy similar status as Norway or Switzerland - i.e. not be members, but still signed up for the four basic freedoms (free movement of goods, capital, services and labour).

    But they are all agreed that those freedoms are not up for qualification or redefinition.

    Switzerland had a referendum on the free movement of labour. In 2014, they voted against this freedom to allow EU citizens to move to Switzerland. The EU told them that they are free to cancel their agreements with the EU, but then such things as the free movement of electrical supplies, as well as goods and services would also be in jeopardy.

    And that is how things have stayed.

    Politicians and other fools are always prepared to make foolish statements that are in direct conflict with economic reality or the laws of physics, but by the time we have realised that they were talking rubbish, they are long gone. As I studied both electrical engineering and economics, listening to any politician speak on almost any subject of material or economic importance, is like listening to a toddler trying to explain the moon and stars.

    The information age began even before the telephone. It began when we learnt to build boats, ride horses and read and write. It began when we learnt to speak.

    The result is what we have today - we can talk to anybody anywhere without any great expense or effort. I bought a garlic crusher directly from China for £1.30 and chatted to the CEO of a building company in Texas. I visited trade fairs in New York and Amsterdam and tried out equipment and chatted to people from Africa and South America. The World is deeply integrated and we cannot undo that level of integration.

    BEFORE the two World Wars, there was already deep integration across Europe and that included the UK. Britain had deep ties to Germany, both socially and financially. We also speak slightly different versions of the same language! Despite all the destruction of those wars and the artificial hatred whipped up by those seeking power, all that integration just flooded back. Nothing had really changed.

    Even if we decided to leave and all other countries wanted the UK to leave, the gathering pace of integration will continue. It is a totally pointless to rage against greater integration as it is for some pea-brained politician to think that we can send electricity from Iceland to Munich (Jules law!) or believe that there is a shortage of employment (the lump of labour fallacy!) We can no more halt greater integration, than we can unlearn the ability to speak.

    Whether we like it or loath it, the EU is on the side of history. It is on the side of the inevitable. It's like the Hotel California - you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave!
     
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    GraemeL

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    Do you care one way or the other. Does it matter to us small businesses? and if so how?

    Cameron cannot make it clear what concessions he is aiming to get as whatever he says will be criticised by the 'out' group who will say it is not enough.

    Will he get sufficient concessions - no.

    Should we get out - yes. Not just because of the lack of democracy and stupid laws, but to leave the unbelievably rich gravy boat created for the bureaucrats. And to save £55m a day.

    " The UK gave the EU €14.5bn in 2013 (in cash rather than any other kind or benefit), and directly got back €6.3bn. "
     
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    billycan

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    Jun 29, 2008
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    Vatmoss?...Vatmoss? - quoi? Must be a directive from Brussels regarding V.A.T. liability on garden centre hanging basket profiteering. The UK will follow this directive to the letter, the rest of Europe will just ignore it.

    As an aside, had the referendum question in 1975 been -

    'Should the UK remain a member of an undemocratic, corrupt and wasteful club which will assume 75% of the UK's legislation with no reference to the electorate or the UK parliament and where the UK will be forbidden to unilaterally negotiate free trade agreements with other countries and our borders will be open to all?' I suspect the motion would not have been carried.

    I think the likes of VW, Mercedes and BMW are more frightened of a 'Brexit' than we are of being cast into the wilderness.
     
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    KM-Tiger

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    As an aside, had the referendum question in 1975 been -

    'Should the UK remain a member of an undemocratic, corrupt and wasteful club which will assume 75% of the UK's legislation with no reference to the electorate or the UK parliament and where the UK will be forbidden to unilaterally negotiate free trade agreements with other countries and our borders will be open to all?' I suspect the motion would not have been carried.
    Spot on.

    And as one of the fools who voted 'Yes' in 1975 thinking it was some sort of trade agreement, I unreservedly apologise.
     
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    Pish_Pash

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    I think the likes of VW, Mercedes and BMW are more frightened of a 'Brexit' than we are of being cast into the wilderness.

    As GraemeL pointed out above, the EU trousered €8.Billion clear from people on this forum (ok, plus a few others from across the UK) ....so if we leave, there'll be a lot of miffed folks in Greece, Italy & Spain etc .....I recall a Top Gear episode where Jeremy Clarkson rocked up to a toll gate for a brand new bridge somewhere in Spain .....they asked him for money to pass through, he said "No - I've already paid". Quite.
     
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    Here we go again! It's going to be like the Scottish referendum all over again! Buffoons from both sides, telling the population a series of lies, misconceptions and half-truths, to the total frustration of everybody.

    I hope we vote to leave, simply because it will be hilarious to watch the various politicians squirm like intestinal worms, when they realise that we can vote for the moon to turn green and we can vote to leave, but we cannot in reality actually leave (see what I wrote earlier on page one!)

    Better still, the UK votes to leave, but Scotland votes to stay in and that triggers yet another referendum on independence!

    Following that, a referendum on free beer!
     
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    Free beer would make a great referendum.


    Every Monday we would get a package through the post containing beer vouchers. We would be given enough vouchers to have 4 pints daily. These could be redeemed at any public house.


    Those that don’t drink alcohol will be sacrificed or made to serve the beer.


    People not entitled to the vouchers would be politicians, banks, alcoholics and convicted criminals.


    This would lead to widespread beer talk, where common sense prevails.


    Should we start an e-petition?
     
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    billycan

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    Jun 29, 2008
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    Of course, leaving Europe will condemn us to be shunted into the sidings of a 'Slow Lane' existence of anonomity where no one listens to us and shunned by the rest of the trading nations having divested us of their UK investment....Heavens! we are in danger of ending up like Japan or South Korea or Taiwan or Norway, my God, let's join the Euro, quick, before it's too late!
     
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    KM-Tiger

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    ... leaving Europe ...
    Geographical impossibility, though hopefully we will leave the EU political union.

    Sorry to nitpick, but there is much disinformation out there, and I'm heartily sick of the BBC, for instance, who should get these thing right, confusing Europe with the EU. They did it again on the News at Ten last night.
     
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    billycan

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    Jun 29, 2008
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    Geographical impossibility, though hopefully we will leave the EU political union.

    Sorry to nitpick, but there is much disinformation out there, and I'm heartily sick of the BBC, for instance, who should get these thing right, confusing Europe with the EU. They did it again on the News at Ten last night.

    Absolutely, common error of mine, though it does feel as if Europe has been hijacked.
     
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    Out for myself, if only to have our own borders back.

    The UK is told we should be scared, but change brings many opportunities, I think we can negotiate better individually around the world than as part of the EU, which everyone knows is run for Germanys benefit primarily.
     
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    All this
    Should we get out - yes. Not just because of the lack of democracy and stupid laws,

    Europe's 'lack of democracy' should be the least of our worries. Arguably this is just a distraction.

    76% of eligible voters did not vote for the current government at the last election.

    On number of votes cast UKIP should have as many seats as the SNP , our own democracy is very flawed, perhaps that should be the headline.

    Foreign companies including those from the EU own most of UK already, including much of our vital infrastructure, such as EDF, E - ON, Various water companies etc It could be put forward that the ' Billions ' taken by the EU pales into insignificance compared with the wholesale sell off, of our national assets. Perhaps this should have been put forward as a referendum?
     
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