E Bay regard "delivered to an address" as the customer receiving the item.

[Nico Albrecht]

And most people do not live somewhere and have place where an item can just be left

No problem at all. They thought about that too and offer delivery to Package reception services like convenience shops safeboxes.

 

[Justin Smith]

Except that is the seller's responsibility, alone, to ensure safe delivery of the item to the recipient. If they choose to use a courier whose drivers don't perform, that is the seller's fault.

This absolutely the case, 100%.

What is interesting is that of all the forums I am publicising this example of appalling service this is the only one where I am getting people arguing I am in the wrong. I can only assume, unless there are not just more on here just arguing for the sake of it, that it is because there are sellers on here who would like what they are arguing to be correct.
I have news for them it is not correct, and it is most certainly not deemed to be correct by their customers.
Which begs the question, are they in business to provide a good service to their customers, do they actually care about their customers ?
Or not ?

 

[Justin Smith]

No problem at all. They thought about that too and offer delivery to Package reception services like convenience shops safeboxes.

It has never been a problem before, but, then again, I have never had an £82 order left in an unlocked porch next to a bus stop.
On the subject of which, if all the carrier needs is a picture of the item somewhere on the customers premises, i.e. no proof at all that the customer has actually had the item, what is to stop an unscrupulous drive taking a pit of said item, then pinching it themselves ?
It's cobblers.

BTW, what is your answer to the question I posed ?

what, in your esteemed opinion, would he [the Evri driver] have done if the front door to our porch had been locked ?

 

[Shopclicks]

And most people do not live somewhere and have place where an item can just be left and be safe because, by defintion, if the driver can get into it then so can anyone else.

Get yourself a parcel lockbox if theft is a problem in your area.

If your parcel hadn't been stolen, you wouldn't be here complaining about Evri and the seller. This is between you and the thief.

 

[Newchodge]

It's your responsibility to provide a secure (and dry) place to have parcels delivered. If that isn't your workplace, find somewhere that is secure. It's the same reason I don't have parcels delivered to my home. There is no safe (or dry) place to leave a parcel. So I have all parcels delivered to somewhere that is.

When did the law change? The responsibility is, first on the se4ller to ensure safe delivery. Untilk safe delivery has occurred, the contract has nort been fulfilled. Second is the lagal resaponsibility of the courier to the seller, to fulfill their contract and deliver the item safely. If the delivery address is locked and there is no answer, the courier should return on a different occasion until they complete their contract. The fact that, over the past few years the courier industry has been overwhelmed and leaves parcels everywhere and anywhere does not change their legal obligation.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Justin Smith said:
To those on here who seem to be arguing that an Evri driver would leave a parcel anywhere first time and never come back (even if it is "signed for"), and, even more controversially, arguing he would be right to do that, what, in your esteemed opinion, would he have done if the front door to our porch had been locked ?

Hold on a sec !
Nobody is ever in at a particular address all the time, and, of my addresses the chances of someone being in, particularly during the working day is FAR higher at my shop.
And most people do not live somewhere and have place where an item can just be left and be safe because, by defintion, if the driver can get into it then so can anyone else.

But I do not believe you have answered the question I posed :

what, in your esteemed opinion, would he have done if the front door to our porch had been locked ?

Your suppliers terms with the courier company would have stipulated that the consignment is left in a safe place when the courier delivers to your site .
There is no platform or inclination from the the courier company to debate what is a safe place ( chuck it on the roof of the bus shelter they dont care They will probably go bust next week or change their name again they dont give a feck anyway )

If your door had been locked they would have leaned it against the door taken a photo and upload it as proof of delivery as agreed in their terms and conditions . Remeber it is impossible to debate with anybody there what is a safe place they have completed their agreement

I think your anger is clouding your judgment here as there is really nowhere left to go with this thread

It reminds me of a rugby argument
Was it was a knock on
but the other bloke was offside
but the tackle was too high

No tri awarded
No parcel delivered ?

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

Whilst I a not a legal eagle, surely if these cases were challenged in court they would win.

A simple scenario (which does happen) is a driver photographs the item at the door and then takes the parcel.

Retailers have a duty of care to ensure orders are delivered to their client.

It's your responsibility to provide a secure (and dry) place to have parcels delivered.

Where does this come from?

BTW,

Pretty much all the other posters on all the other forums agree with me that what has happened is appalling, it's totally unacceptable.

people agreeing with you doesn't make it right.

 

[fisicx]

Except that is the seller's responsibility, alone, to ensure safe delivery of the item to the recipient. If they choose to use a courier whose drivers don't perform, that is the seller's fault.

Are you sure about this? Looking at the terms of both eBay and evri, neither have any mention of safe delivery. They just state delivery to the address or a safe place.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Pretty much all the other posters on all the other forums agree with me that what has happened is appalling, it's totally unacceptable. They almost all blame the driver though, and he is in the wrong, but the seller is even more so. He deserves to go bust and I hope he does.

Why dont you feck off over there all the time of you dont trust what we say!

Add up all the years all the people on here have been doing this and I would say they know their onions but you go and ask mumsnet FFS!

I'm nearly as angry as you now

 

[Justin Smith]

I have a different opinion. If you visit any eBay listing for the product and click on the "postage and payment" section, you can view the delivery service chosen by the seller. This allows me to determine the delivery provider before making a purchase. In situations involving Evri, I either provide my home address or request the seller to use an alternative service, and I am willing to pay extra if it helps avoid potential issues. Additionally, with Evri, there's the option to reschedule or redirect parcels, so the recipient could have chosen to reschedule delivery for Monday

You may have stumbled on something there.
I did not bother checking this at the time because I, naively it appears, assumed the seller was actually bothered if I got my £82 order. But I have just been back to the item and clicked on Delivery options and this is what it said :

Free postage Free United Kingdom Economy Delivery (Royal Mail 48)

He did not use RM (who would not have left it there, they never have before, they'd have carded me) he used Evri.
i.e. he has not stuck to any contract, so apart from the fact he is morally in the wrong, it would appear he is also legally in the wrong too.
As someone who knows quite a bit about carriers and the RM I assume he used Evri rather then RM because the item was over 2Kg. RM are much more expensive for items over 2Kg as their next weight break is 10kG, plus it cannot go RM48, it has to go RM24.

>>Additionally, with Evri, there's the option to reschedule or redirect parcels, so the recipient could have chosen to reschedule delivery for Monday<<

I have checked and I never received any E Mail from Evri giving me that option.

 

[Justin Smith]

Why dont you feck off over there all the time of you dont trust what we say!

Add up all the years all the people on here have been doing this and I would say they know their onions but you go and ask mumsnet FFS!

I'm nearly as angry as you now

Jeremy, I have been in the mail order business for nearly 20 years......

But, having said that, what I stated was correct anyway. What I said was there are people on here who want to believe something is true, and I am talking about what is morally right, or, to put it a different way, what is good service and what is not.
I can assure you 100%, that no customer would agree that I have received good service from that seller, yet there are people on here, not you necessarily, who are arguing that I did.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

I am talking about what is morally right,

That may be, but morals and business do not always mix.

You are getting good feedback from some seasoned business people (like yourself).

BTW, good service is an expected requirement, but not always contractural!

 

[Newchodge]

Are you sure about this? Looking at the terms of both eBay and evri, neither have any mention of safe delivery. They just state delivery to the address or a safe place.

So every delivery can just be left lying on the pavement at the given address? Is the OP a customer of ebay or evri, or of the seller?

 

[Shopclicks]

When did the law change? The responsibility is, first on the se4ller to ensure safe delivery.

I think you'll find it's delivery, not safe delivery. Maybe the driver should stay with the parcel until the buyer comes along to pick it up?

From Citizens Advice UK:

Your item was delivered by a courier​

Check your terms and conditions or account details - they might include other places for delivery, like your porch or a neighbour’s house. If you agreed to them, it’s not the seller’s responsibility if your order has gone missing.

If your item wasn't delivered to the location you agreed, it's the seller's legal responsibility to sort out the issue.
The item was delivered and then was stolen. Not the seller's responsibility.

Where does this come from?

The school of common sense.

 

[Justin Smith]

Get yourself a parcel lockbox if theft is a problem in your area.

If your parcel hadn't been stolen, you wouldn't be here complaining about Evri and the seller. This is between you and the thief.

I note you still have not answered my question :

what, in your esteemed opinion, would he [the Evri driver] have done if the front door to our porch had been locked ?

But you are right, there are actually five parties involved in this example of appalling service :

1 - Me, the buyer (and whatever happened to the customer is always right...)
2 - The seller
3 - The carrier
4 - E Bay (who want to make their customers confident to use their platform)
5 - The thief

All have failed.

I should have noted his less than 100% feedback and sent him a buyers a message to him stating I wanted a signed for delivery. In my defence I assumed he would be bothered if I actually got the £82 order......

The seller has failed, his service is appalling and he has a customer out for blood.

The carrier has failed because they left the parcel in an unsafe place (by definition).

E Bay have failed because they have reduced my confidence in using their platform for buying anything of any significant value. And, if I have my way, I will make sure I reduce others confidence as well.

Even the thief has failed because he knicked something (custom made replacement blind slats) which are completely worthless to anyone and will almost certainly have ended up in a bin.

 

[fisicx]

So every delivery can just be left lying on the pavement at the given address? Is the OP a customer of ebay or evri, or of the seller?

Yes. The onus is on the buyer to provide an address to which the item can be delivered. All the driver has to do is deliver to that address. It’s all clearly defined in the terms.

 

[Newchodge]

Yes. The onus is on the buyer to provide an address to which the item can be delivered. All the driver has to do is deliver to that address. It’s all clearly defined in the terms.

Whose terms?

 

[Fagin2021]

So it's everyone's fault but your own. You really ought to go into politics.

 

[fisicx]

Whose terms?

EBay and evri.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Jeremy, I have been in the mail order business for nearly 20 years......

But, having said that, what I stated was correct anyway. What I said was there are people on here who want to believe something is true, and I am talking about what is morally right, or, to put it a different way, what is good service and what is not.
I can assure you 100%, that no customer would agree that I have received good service from that seller, yet there are people on here, not you necessarily, who are arguing that I did.

I think I have spotted your mistake
You thought that that company has morals ???

 

[Justin Smith]

I think you'll find it's delivery, not safe delivery. Maybe the driver should stay with the parcel until the buyer comes along to pick it up?

From Citizens Advice UK:

Your item was delivered by a courier​

Check your terms and conditions or account details - they might include other places for delivery, like your porch or a neighbour’s house. If you agreed to them, it’s not the seller’s responsibility if your order has gone missing.

If your item wasn't delivered to the location you agreed, it's the seller's legal responsibility to sort out the issue.
The item was delivered and then was stolen. Not the seller's responsibility.


The school of common sense.

>>If you agreed to them<<

I never agreed for it to be left anywhere.
In my own mail order business I only send anything of any significant value "to be left at xxxxxxx" on clear written instructions from the customer.
To me that is not something to be buried in lines and lines of small print that nobody ever reads. The customer just expect good, or at a minimum, reasonable service. And demonstrably, since I never got the item, I have not had that.

 

[Shopclicks]

I note you still have not answered my question :

what, in your esteemed opinion, would he [the Evri driver] have done if the front door to our porch had been locked ?

I don't do hypotheticals.

But as a consumer, it would be pretty stupid to ask for a parcel to be delivered to a door that may or may not be locked.

 

[Justin Smith]

I think I have spotted your mistake
You thought that that company has morals ???

You have stumbled the biggie haven't you ?
How many companies are genuinely concerned about their customers ?
Once you get people making excuses for companies bad service by quoting small print I think their position on that is clear.

 

[Justin Smith]

I don't do hypotheticals.
But as a consumer, it would be pretty stupid to ask for a parcel to be delivered to a door that may or may not be locked.

I think we know which side of the fence you are on, as regards if you think companies should actually care about their customers.....

 

[Newchodge]

I don't do hypotheticals.

But as a consumer, it would be pretty stupid to ask for a parcel to be delivered to a door that may or may not be locked.

Every parcel I order is delivered to a door that is locked. When it is locked there may or may not be someone to unlock it and accept the parcel. I have never had a parcel go missing, although I have had several, from different delivery companies that have been delivered more than once, until there was someone in.

 

[Newchodge]

EBay and evri.

Is the OP a customer of ebay or evri, or of the seller?

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

You have stumbled the biggie haven't you ?
How many companies are genuinely concerned about their customers ?
Once you get people making excuses for companies bad service by quoting small print I think their position on that is clear.

I have a clear understanding of what they are about and the challenges they face with the infrastructure and the business model that they run.

There is simply no budget for effective customer service

 

[Shopclicks]

I think we know which side of the fence you are on, as regards if you think companies should actually care about their customers.....

If only more people would take responsibility for their own decisions. You made a decision to buy from that seller. You made a decision to accept the seller's terms. You made a decision to accept eBay's terms. You made a decision not to ensure the driver had somewhere 'safe' to leave the parcel. Surely you don't need to be nannied by the businesses you deal with?

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Who's coming up the pub?

 

[Newchodge]

If only more people would take responsibility for their own decisions. You made a decision to buy from that seller. You made a decision to accept the seller's terms. You made a decision to accept eBay's terms. You made a decision not to ensure the driver had somewhere 'safe' to leave the parcel. Surely you don't need to be nannied by the businesses you deal with?

Actually, if you read post #90 the seller failed to abide by the delivery terms the OP accepted.

 

[Shopclicks]

Every parcel I order is delivered to a door that is locked. When it is locked there may or may not be someone to unlock it and accept the parcel. I have never had a parcel go missing, although I have had several, from different delivery companies that have been delivered more than once, until there was someone in.

I don't know if the driver would have come back later if the door was locked. It wasn't. So the driver left the parcel in the safest place they had available (which as I understand it, was a porch?) .... then it got stolen.

 

[Shopclicks]

Actually, if you read post #90 the seller failed to abide by the delivery terms the OP accepted.

It's evident that the OP didn't read it before accepting the seller's terms. There's probably something that I'm not going to go looking for in the seller's or eBay's terms, which allows a seller to use an appropriate carrier at their discretion. Ultimately, the parcel was delivered .... and then it was stolen.

 

[fisicx]

Is the OP a customer of ebay or evri, or of the seller?

A bit of everything. When you buy anything from ebay you agree to the terms. And those terms are very clear that ebay is no liable for anything to do with delivery. You agree to the delivery service offered by the seller. The actual delivery is the responsibility of the chosen service.

 

[Justin Smith]

If only more people would take responsibility for their own decisions. You made a decision to buy from that seller. You made a decision to accept the seller's terms. You made a decision to accept eBay's terms. You made a decision not to ensure the driver had somewhere 'safe' to leave the parcel. Surely you don't need to be nannied by the businesses you deal with?

I accept I did not know that seller gave bad service and didn't actually care (enough) if his customer actually got the order, you appear to be trying to excuse bad service. I do not know why, possibly you have a mail order business. "Shopclicks" hints at it....
But are you actually reading this thread ?
As it happens the seller has no leg to stand on, did you not read this ?

I did not bother checking this at the time because I, naively it appears, assumed the seller was actually bothered if I got my £82 order. But I have just been back to the item and clicked on Delivery options and this is what it said :

Free postage Free United Kingdom Economy Delivery (Royal Mail 48)

He did not use RM (who would not have left it there, they never have before, they'd have carded me) he used Evri.
i.e. he has not stuck to any contract, so apart from the fact he is morally in the wrong, it would appear he is also legally in the wrong too.

 

[Justin Smith]

It's evident that the OP didn't read it before accepting the seller's terms. There's probably something that I'm not going to go looking for in the seller's or eBay's terms, which allows a seller to use an appropriate carrier at their discretion. Ultimately, the parcel was delivered .... and then it was stolen.

I'm not having that, you said :

>>You made a decision to buy from that seller. You made a decision to accept the seller's terms.<<

He didn't stick to his terms, probably to save a pound or two because the order was over 2KG, then he forgot to ask for a signature from Evri on delivery.
His mistake not mine.
He is in the wrong, legally as well as morally.

If you do have a mail order business I sure hope you treat your customers like I treat mine rather than how that excuse for a business treats there's.
My business has all 5 star reviews (the genuine ones) from Google and Trustpilot and, when we sold on E Bay, a 100% positive feedback rating.
Maybe I should not have expected to be treated as well as I treat my customers.....

 

[Justin Smith]

A bit of everything. When you buy anything from ebay you agree to the terms. And those terms are very clear that ebay is no liable for anything to do with delivery. You agree to the delivery service offered by the seller. The actual delivery is the responsibility of the chosen service.

The seller did not stick to his terms as regards the carrier :

Free postage Free United Kingdom Economy Delivery (Royal Mail 48)

Incidentally Fisicx, I hope you treat your customers better than you think it reasonable for me have been treated in this.....
You should perhaps think about the impression you make on prospective clients.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

But I have just been back to the item and clicked on Delivery options and this is what it said :

Free postage Free United Kingdom Economy Delivery (Royal Mail 48)

He did not use RM (who would not have left it there, they never have before, they'd have carded me) he used Evri.

The question now is do you claim against Ebay or the Seller?

 

[Newchodge]

The question now is do you claim against Ebay or the Seller?

The seller, I think. According to @fisicx Ebay states that delivery is the responsibility of the seller.

 

[fisicx]

But….

The package was delivered. Maybe not in accordance with how it should have been but the terms were met. The seller has evidence of delivery so is claiming they have fulfilled the contract. The driver should not have left the parcel so you could claim against evri. But the claim can only be made by the seller as they are the ones who paid for the service.

It’s a mess of which there is unlikely to be a satisfactory solution.

EBay’s terms are very clear about signatures. They are only required for items valued over £450.

Facts are important in a case like this. Getting angry and making unsubstantiated claims won’t solve anything.

 

[Newchodge]

Maybe not in accordance with how it should have been but the terms were met.

I asked you before. Whose terms. You said ebay and evri. Later you said they had no role. So the OP sues the seller.