Domain Name Help?

[Vending Siting Services]

I am fuming!

A website of ours, which we have owned for nearly 20 years, has been nicked! They are holding us to ransom for nearly £20,000!!!

How can this happen???? My web hosting company tells me that it is all legal ......

Our renewal was sent to our old web hosting company who were bought out nearly two years ago. No correspondence was sent to us at all. Our current web hosting company told us a month ago that our website name will be safe and that they had four people in their office watching it for us ... and now, we've lost it!!!

Can anything be done?

Kind regards.

Barbara Fellowes

 

[FireFleur]

Yes there are some methods. PM me if you like.

 

[cmcp]

Did the domain name expire and become available to the public?

Did the new owner register it legitimately?

 

[edmondscommerce]

Firefleur

Please spill the beans on any methods you know of - would be handy info to have for everyone

 

[Vending Siting Services]

The circumstance was as follows:

Each year renewal has always been done by our web hosting company and they automatically do the renewals for us. A year or so ago, can't remember exactly when, our original web hosting company were bought out and we transferred all our business onto a new web hosting company.

When the renewal come through it went to our old web hosting company who did not respond - they may not even be in business. As no renewal was made the domain name was suspended for 6 weeks and we were told that it was just a matter of time before the domain name would be unlocked and my current web hosting company noted that we were the interested party.

I have been told that the individual who has taken our web address has used some form of computer program which automatically puts in a request at one second past midnight for the day that our website became available, even though my web hosting company had it flagged for the date. I suppose it must be something like Snipe-it on ebay.

Regards.

Barbara

 

[cmcp]

It's a bit of a shame, but the domain expired. It was released to the public, and someone else grabbed it.

Do you have some sort of agreement drawn up that details the party responsible for renewing?

Whoever the responsible party for renewing was, were they aware of the drop process? Did they tell you it was going to expire and that they'd just renew it for you? It doesn't work like that.

Are we talking .co.uk or .com? You've a chance of recovering it if it's .co.uk.

 

[fisicx]

Nominet has very good domain name resolution servce. Well worth giving them a call.

However, it's your responsibility to ensure that your domains are registered (just like your car tax and TV license) so the host can't really be to blame.

 

[apeebles]

Is the name trademarked? Might be worth trademarking the name if not and then you could do the same thing as Harrods did when they had this issue a few years ago.

 

[DanSimpson-P1 Technology]

There is some forms of protection you maybe able to rely on. The term is Cyber-Squatting and you should google this to understand more about it. The BBC, Tesco and several other large brands have all been successful in getting back domain names that play upon their trade.

here are some links to take a look at:

reports.internic.net/cgi/registrars/problem-report.cgi
something4.com/news/cyber-squatters.html

Hope this helps!

 

[Vending Siting Services]

It's a bit of a shame, but the domain expired. It was released to the public, and someone else grabbed it.

Do you have some sort of agreement drawn up that details the party responsible for renewing?

Whoever the responsible party for renewing was, were they aware of the drop process? Did they tell you it was going to expire and that they'd just renew it for you? It doesn't work like that.

Are we talking .co.uk or .com? You've a chance of recovering it if it's .co.uk.

Thanks for the reply.

The site was on lock (whatever that means) and there was a release date which my web hosting company had diarised.

We have no agreement in place.

My previous web hosting company did not inform us that it needed renewing.

It was a .co.uk

Regards.

Barbara

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Nominet has very good domain name resolution servce. Well worth giving them a call.

However, it's your responsibility to ensure that your domains are registered (just like your car tax and TV license) so the host can't really be to blame.

Thanks for that. My chappie has already made contact with Nominet and yes you are right it is our responsibility, but we have been so used to the hosting company informing us that it did not even occur to us.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Is the name trademarked? Might be worth trademarking the name if not and then you could do the same thing as Harrods did when they had this issue a few years ago.

Not trademarked - all other aspects of our business is, but this one never occurred to us.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

There is some forms of protection you maybe able to rely on. The term is Cyber-Squatting and you should google this to understand more about it. The BBC, Tesco and several other large brands have all been successful in getting back domain names that play upon their trade.

here are some links to take a look at:

reports.internic.net/cgi/registrars/problem-report.cgi
something4.com/news/cyber-squatters.html

Hope this helps!

Thanks for that.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Registrant:
Internet Profit Tactics
186 Leigh Road
Eastleigh, Hants SO50 9DX
United Kingdom

My chappie has just found this outfit who has registered it! Looks like they prey on companies domain names just to make money!

 

[Alison Jones]

Not trademarked - all other aspects of our business is, but this one never occurred to us.

From what I understood (even if you have not trademarked) but if you have proof that you have had a website for x number of years (ie if you have the web address showing on customer orders that you still have in your accounting records) then you can proove that the person who has taken your website is using your company reputation to gain orders.

Alison

 

[Alison Jones]

Registrant:
Internet Profit Tactics
186 Leigh Road
Eastleigh, Hants SO50 9DX
United Kingdom

My chappie has just found this outfit who has registered it! Looks like they prey on companies domain names just to make money!

What a nasty thing to do.

I must make sure we renew our domain names in the right time scales, I never realised people did this type of thing.

Alison

 

[Alison Jones]

It is intellectual property rights who deal with domains being taken like this.

If both the person whos domain it is and the person taking the domain are both based in the UK this is not legal in the UK, if however one was in a different country then it is legal.

It can take up to 3 years for the Intellectual Property rights to sort this type of domain dispute out.

Alison

 

[Dwebs-Ltd]

It was a .co.uk

Regards.

Barbara

Then someone has been feeding you rubbish

If its a .uk and your registrant details were on the domain you could have got nominet to do a forced tag change £10+vat.

Can I ask exactly what your current hosting company advised????

If you have owned the domain for years you should have got a registration certificate with a special code which would have given you access to nominets system.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

From what I understood (even if you have not trademarked) but if you have proof that you have had a website for x number of years (ie if you have the web address showing on customer orders that you still have in your accounting records) then you can proove that the person who has taken your website is using your company reputation to gain orders.

Alison

The site is an information giving site and we do not conduct business through it - therefore has no value in taking orders etc.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Then someone has been feeding you rubbish

If its a .uk and your registrant details were on the domain you could have got nominet to do a forced tag change £10+vat.

Can I ask exactly what your current hosting company advised????

If you have owned the domain for years you should have got a registration certificate with a special code which would have given you access to nominets system.

Hi Chris

My hosting company has contacted Nominet and I am being told there is nothing we can do. God knows where the registration certificate is - these renewals have always been handled for us.

What a nightmare ......

Regards.

Barbara

 

[cmcp]

What content is on the new website?

Where did the £20,000 figure come from?

If they're not passing off as you then they'd pretty much be doing nothing wrong. But Nominet will not look favourably on squatting for £20k.

 

[Alison Jones]

Hi Chris

My hosting company has contacted Nominet and I am being told there is nothing we can do. God knows where the registration certificate is - these renewals have always been handled for us.

Have you got proof that you owned that domain? You mentioned the registration certificate, if you cannot find this I am assuming you will have accounting records going back 7 years, you may have an invoice/receipt from the purchase of the domain (normally domain names are on the invoice), If you do and you are based in the UK, google intellectual property rights and domain. There is a body that deals with cases like these (my husband works in IT and he says he knows of cases like yours, he did say that some cases can take up to 3 years though).

Alison

 

[NuBlue]

What content is on the new website?

Where did the £20,000 figure come from?

If they're not passing off as you then they'd pretty much be doing nothing wrong. But Nominet will not look favourably on squatting for £20k.

I doubt Nominet will care. If it went back onto the public market and they bought it then they own it. They can ask for 20k or 20 million it is up to them, they own it!

Your best bet would be to negotiate with the new owner as they have no obligation to 'give' it back so your best trying to secure a good deal for yourself IMHO and make sure all your other domains are:

- Registered with the correct contact details for yourself.
- Any hosting accounts, domain accoutns have a credit card on file and are set to auto renew
- You, (not your host) are the legal owner of all your domain names.

hope that helps

 

[Dwebs-Ltd]

Hi Chris

My hosting company has contacted Nominet and I am being told there is nothing we can do. God knows where the registration certificate is - these renewals have always been handled for us.

What a nightmare ......

Regards.

Barbara

It sounds like you were given incorrect advice by your hosting company which has caused you to lose your domain. No idea why they didn't try and get nominet to do a forced transfer before it expired, the renewal period is very long so someone has made a right balls up of it.

 

[SFD]

I would pop round and see the guy if it was me, explain the situation and see what you can agree on.

Some people are very different in real life to how they act on forums and through email.

 

[NuBlue]

It sounds like you were given incorrect advice by your hosting company which has caused you to lose your domain. No idea why they didn't try and get nominet to do a forced transfer before it expired, the renewal period is very long so someone has made a right balls up of it.

I agree. The renewal period is very lengthy for just this reason. I hope you can get it back for a reasonable sum

 

[cmcp]

I doubt Nominet will care. If it went back onto the public market and they bought it then they own it. They can ask for 20k or 20 million it is up to them, they own it!

That's why I'm asking where the £20k came from. If the third party bought it with a view to extorting money from former owners I thought that's the definition of "cyber squatting" and thought Nominet's DRS worked against this.

 

[very_confused]

.co.uk dont become available as soon as they expire, you must of had a non working site for many months before it was available again...

 

[Jeewhizz]

Barbera,

It's worth noting the following:

Your domain would've exipred on, for example, 1st October 2008.

Nominet then suspend this domain for approximately 90 days. During this suspension, the domain will not point towards your hosting or email, and so most people realise at this point that they need to renew it, as they can't access their site.

Furthermore, Nominet will write to you by post and advise that the domain is due for renewal. This was recently changed in Feb 09 to email, but you would've got a letter sent as your domain would've been suspended before this

The domain has gone through it's 90-odd day suspension window, and has been released by Nominet to the open market for registration. The person/company who has purchased this domain has done so without infringing on your intellectual property. Jelly Beans is a generic term, and unless they used it for the same business idea as yours, they won't be infringing. The Nominet DRS won't help in this situation, as I'm sure Nominet will tell you.

Unfortunately, if you didn't renew it, and let it lapse, then that's something you'd need to raise with your hosting company, if the responsibility to renew it ultimately lied with them.

 

[cmcp]

I agree with all the above posts about the grace period Nominet allow after a name expires. Like NuBlue said it's that long for a reason.

When did this happen in relation to you noticing it?

At least you won't be letting any other domains expire in the next 50 years.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

What content is on the new website?

Where did the £20,000 figure come from?

If they're not passing off as you then they'd pretty much be doing nothing wrong. But Nominet will not look favourably on squatting for £20k.

There is nothing on the new website.

£20,000 was quoted in an email from the individual to my web hosting company.

They are not passing off as us, they just want to sell the website back to us.

 

[Jeewhizz]

They are not passing off as us, they just want to sell the website back to us.

Who contacted who first?

Nominet have said that buying domains in order to re-sell them is not considered in a bad light:

DRS Policy 4d: "Trading in domain names for profit, and holding a large portfolio of domain names, are of themselves lawful activities."

http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/drs/?contentId=5239

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Yes Jeewhizz, it was suspended for 90 days, although the website has only been down for the last six weeks. The moment we saw that the site had gone down, thank goodness for customers telling us, we brought this to the attention of our web hosting company. They guaranteed to us that we would not loose the name and that we had to wait for the 90 days to elapse and all will be well and they had registered an interest for us. I do agree in that something has gone definately wrong here and no one is taking responsibility.

I have actually telephoned the chap who has bought it and he sounds like a really sharp character .... not at all worried of the consequences he is having. I have tried to plead with him and explained how this has happened - it fell on deaf ears.

I will let you all know how this pans out, this is by no means the end of it as I am sure this will make a good story for the papers to pick up on.

Thanks for all the replies, much appreciated and all you peeps out there, make sure you don't let this happen to you, even if you have the watchful eye of a web hosting company.

Regards.

Barbara

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Who contacted who first?

Nominet have said that buying domains in order to re-sell them is not considered in a bad light:

DRS Policy 4d: "Trading in domain names for profit, and holding a large portfolio of domain names, are of themselves lawful activities."

http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/drs/?contentId=5239

My web hosting company made the first contact.

I can appreciate that the practice is not lawful, but we had no notification, nothing at all.

 

[Jeewhizz]

Then your case needs to be with the hosting company, not the new registrant. He/She has done nothing wrong.

Putting something in the papers isn't going to help anyone - in fact you might end up causing yourself more problems, if the new registrant feels you are libelling their business

Your hosting company has lied to you - there is no 90 day window to renew the domain. You can renew a domain at any point within 6 months of the expiry date up until the 90+ days when it becomes available for registration again

 

[Alison Jones]

My web hosting company made the first contact.

I can appreciate that the practice is not lawful, but we had no notification, nothing at all.

Have you got a solicitor you can consult?

If you and the company who has purchased the domain are both in the UK, they legally cannot do what they have done. My husband works in IT and he said that he has experienced this with and helped customers in the past where they went to the intellectual property rights (even though it took 3 years) they got their domain back without having to pay anything to the people who had bought the domain as the way they bought it was the same as the people who have bought yours.

Alison

 

[Jeewhizz]

Have you got a solicitor you can consult?

If you and the company who has purchased the domain are both in the UK, they legally cannot do what they have done.

They've done nothing wrong. They have registered a domain that the previous owner neglected to renew.

If you fail to renew the domain name, after a 90 day window, what further right do you have to it?

They haven't done anything illegal.

My husband works in IT and he said that he has experienced this with and helped customers in the past where they went to the intellectual property rights (even though it took 3 years) they got their domain back without having to pay anything to the people who had bought the domain as the way they bought it was the same as the people who have bought yours.

Alison

Can you point me to case law that supports this then please? Nominet won't entertain anything outside of the DRS, and their DRS won't be in your favour, if as the registrant, they don't renew it, and let it expire.

Now, if the situation was like this:

companyName Ltd buys and sells cars.
They have companyName.co.uk and forget to renew it
joe bloggs comes along and re-registers it and then decides to sell cars on it

That is where there might be a case for 'passing off' - certainly not IPR infringement - you don't own the domain for it to class as IPR - you only ever lease a domain from nominet on a 2 year lease.

.com domains are different, maybe your husband is referring to this.

 

[Dibs_h]

Would you buy a house, pay for it and not want to see sight of the deeds, not want a solicitor to confirm in writing that the deeds have been registered in your name and not require a copy of the deeds?

If no- then why is it any different with other purchases, especially domain names for those that trade via the web?

Mind you having read some of the other threads - it does seem awfully commonplace the nbr of instances where the domain name isn't even registered to the company\individual who believe they own it.

 

[wood1e2]

So there is actually a website pointed at this domian name? From the start I thought it was just the domain name issue. Obviously if there is/was a website pointed at the domain then it makes it worse.

If it is just about the domain name, then you could just register another one, that for SEO reason may be more beneficial...so rather than mrsmithmotors.co.uk you could get fordfocuscheap.co.uk

Although the website would need further SEO work.

Even if there is a website pointing at it you should buy another domain to get it up and running again...

At the end of the day I think you are going to have to put it down to experience... sorry

 

[HC-Martin]

They guaranteed to us that we would not loose the name and that we had to wait for the 90 days to elapse and all will be well and they had registered an interest for us.

Then they should be stumping up the £20k to get it back IMHO!