Dismissed without notice but the employer wont say why

youcangetjules

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It contains clauses under which they can dismiss me immediately for. Comes under pretty standard "gross misconduct" definitions. I did not trigger any.
But looking at what both yourself and Cyndy above say - I'm not an employee, and therefore do any of those clauses have any effect anyway. Under UK Employment law, under 2 years service there are minimal protections - basically you're an at will employee and no reason needs to be given, but the thing I dont get is basically this:
A) Employer via agent (which answers one of your questions above) has written these "Gross Misconduct" clauses into the contract - why even bother, if they can terminate you any time they like for no reason
B) Contract law vs Employment law - I'm not even a novice in this area - I'd like to understand better how (apart from the bleeding obvious) these two are separated when it comes to termination.
 
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IanSuth

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It contains clauses under which they can dismiss me immediately for. Comes under pretty standard "gross misconduct" definitions. I did not trigger any.
But looking at what both yourself and Cyndy above say - I'm not an employee, and therefore do any of those clauses have any effect anyway. Under UK Employment law, under 2 years service there are minimal protections - basically you're an at will employee and no reason needs to be given, but the thing I dont get is basically this:
A) Employer via agent (which answers one of your questions above) has written these "Gross Misconduct" clauses into the contract - why even bother, if they can terminate you any time they like for no reason
B) Contract law vs Employment law - I'm not even a novice in this area - I'd like to understand better how (apart from the bleeding obvious) these two are separated when it comes to termination.
If you are working as a contractor you should not have an employment contract (contract of service) you should have a business to business contract for services.

If you are via an agency be aware I was an IT recruitment consultant for 27 years, a fellow of the Recruitment & Employment confederation and know exactly how fast and loose some play with the law.

From what you are saying you don't actually sound like a contractor you sound like you maybe a disguised employee (under the day to day control of a manger onsite etc) - when did your "contract" start and EXACTLY what documents were you given and asked to sign - what were they titled as ?

If you want PM me the agency name and I will see who they are members of (or not) - in more than one case on here I have shown someone was contracted in a different way from what they thought and given them a way fwd.

A notice period is quite weird as it suggests a mutuality of obligation which is something people don't usually want to get involved with with regard to a temp or ltd co contractor

For a brief idea of how complicated look at the multitude of different model contract templates here depending upon exact situation - https://www.rec.uk.com/recruiters/l...967&search=&contracts=all&sortBy=A - Z&page=1
 
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IanSuth

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"A) Employer via agent (which answers one of your questions above) has written these "Gross Misconduct" clauses into the contract - why even bother, if they can terminate you any time they like for no reason"

This makes me think client has asked agency to find someone for a fixed term employment contract - agency has tried to provide someone under a different form of contract (likely to avoid pension/NI/holiday contributions and maximise margin)

If that is the case - your best bet might be to demand the missing notice period from the agency - let them argue with the client
 
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youcangetjules

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I've had a conversation along those lines with the agency. Only wrinkle is that I dont want to push too hard on that - as I want more business with the agent and the agent and I get along pretty well.
But even said to me that what they did is just plain nasty - listening to one side of the story only, obviously nothing much in the way of fact checking (angry teams call was at around 3pm, dismissal was around 5pm), no getting my side of the story - and I had a senior director and a C-Level both call me up and this is totally out of order - but as you've only got a few days to go - rocking the boat now is pointless, and risky for us.
 
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IanSuth

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I've had a conversation along those lines with the agency. Only wrinkle is that I dont want to push too hard on that - as I want more business with the agent and the agent and I get along pretty well.
But even said to me that what they did is just plain nasty - listening to one side of the story only, obviously nothing much in the way of fact checking (angry teams call was at around 3pm, dismissal was around 5pm), no getting my side of the story - and I had a senior director and a C-Level both call me up and this is totally out of order - but as you've only got a few days to go - rocking the boat now is pointless, and risky for us.
Well it all depends how much you want the £

To be frank - contractors/temps allowing iffy agencies to get away with taking short cuts is why iffy agencies exist and good ones struggle.

If an agency playing by the rules quotes for a member of staff to do what you were doing at the same headline hourly rate but with holiday/NI/pensions etc then for the same margin they would have to charge likely 15% more - hence agency cutting corners wins the business.

No wonder the agent you were dealing gets on well with you - you aren't asking any difficult questions or demanding he follow the law with regard to your employment.

You can't be happy to ignore a bit of the law that you want (having to pay deductions etc) and still want the law to help you with other bits (unfair dismissal)
 
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ekm

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I used to contract briefly before going perm and it was amazing how quickly and efficiently you could be shown the door (current issues aside it never happened to me) but i know a few stories of fellow contractors making a slip up and if it was a biggie or you had attitude about it they generally weren't seen again, not much in the way of process at all it was just a case of come in, hand over your laptop, off you pop. As already stated you don't get employment rights as such normally as it's a B2B relationship.

On the race front, I didn't read the OP in a manner that would cause offense but I'd certainly repeat advice to be cautious, if you don't need to mention it then don't. I say this because one colleague contractor I do vaguely remember was a bit outspoken, and whilst nothing he said was actually offensive, it was just always close to the wire and unnecessary mentions and if you tried to sort of edge him away from it he'd vocally spout that he wasn't being offensive and state his rights to voice his thoughts when not offensive rather than just take the hint and change topic, which is allright if a director isn't walking past you at the time overhearing you now having an argument whether we're being racist or not. Anyone fancy a corporate dose of guilt by association?

Eventually he just became risky to talk to, got a bit of a rep for it and eventually disappeared into the ether. He probably technically was in the right and had a heart of gold but being right doesn't give you rights as a contractor. If I recall it right it was head down, deliver the project, forget politics and save for a rainier day.
 
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JEREMY HAWKE

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    Wow, what a thread discussion this one is.

    Frankly, I would have cut the OPs contract and got rid of him!

    Sorry, but at worst he reads like a total self opinionated tool to me and at best certainly hard work based on his comments. Even the opening post was like reading war and peace
    Furthermore I would scrap the employee section on here if I was given the privileged opportunity.

    This is not a trade union We not feckin shop stewards and I don't care if some winger has a problem in there job because there is a lot of other help on the internet
    There is more help for moaning and groaning employees of other enterprises than there is help for small businesses and I don't know why we get drawn into such shenanigans

    There are plenty of other people that come here that need help with their companies and start ups .Ambitious people who "sometimes" apricate our help :)

    The OP is a misfit that has no business on here
     
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    IanSuth

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    Furthermore I would scrap the employee section on here if I was given the privileged opportunity.

    This is not a trade union We not feckin shop stewards and I don't care if some winger has a problem in there job because there is a lot of other help on the internet
    There is more help for moaning and groaning employees of other enterprises than there is help for small businesses and I don't know why we get drawn into such shenanigans

    There are plenty of other people that come here that need help with their companies and start ups .Ambitious people who "sometimes" apricate our help :)

    The OP is a misfit that has no business on here
    I would leave it for a very important reason

    For the last 20 years up until a few years ago there were many agencies who were trying to persuade temps to be PSC contractors - they did it with the lure of more take home from a fixed hourly rate but actually because it cut their costs and allowed higher margins for less work and with less legal strings attached.

    A big one of those legal strings being that "pay when paid" is illegal for temps.

    By shifting people to PSC's all those contracts became B2B not employment contracts, the WTD, AWD and various other bits of legislation could be ignored or were less impactful.

    There was a point in time various Umbrella and "contractor accounting" firms like GIANT were offering big incentives to individual recruiters to push people there way.

    This may have started to change with IR35 but really it is just making agencies/umbrellas come up with more inventive ways to try and keep people off payroll (or to just ignore the laws)

    Thus there are a bunch of people who would come here thinking they are small businesses providing a service - they are not - they are employees being taken advantage of by companies/agencies.

    But because they are treated as employees in their work they also still feel they should receive support like an employee. Sadly they are actually getting all the downsides and few of the freedoms.

    They need somewhere to be (repeatedly) told that as a company they dont get those protections but they may actually be a disguised employee, they just need to have the gumption to stand up for themselves and argue their corner.

    Equally employers need to see the issues so they know what to ask psc's, agencies, interviewees so they all understand the rules, regs and relative responsibilities
     
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    Newchodge

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    I would leave it for a very important reason

    For the last 20 years up until a few years ago there were many agencies who were trying to persuade temps to be PSC contractors - they did it with the lure of more take home from a fixed hourly rate but actually because it cut their costs and allowed higher margins for less work and with less legal strings attached.

    A big one of those legal strings being that "pay when paid" is illegal for temps.

    By shifting people to PSC's all those contracts became B2B not employment contracts, the WTD, AWD and various other bits of legislation could be ignored or were less impactful.

    There was a point in time various Umbrella and "contractor accounting" firms like GIANT were offering big incentives to individual recruiters to push people there way.

    This may have started to change with IR35 but really it is just making agencies/umbrellas come up with more inventive ways to try and keep people off payroll (or to just ignore the laws)

    Thus there are a bunch of people who would come here thinking they are small businesses providing a service - they are not - they are employees being taken advantage of by companies/agencies.

    But because they are treated as employees in their work they also still feel they should receive support like an employee. Sadly they are actually getting all the downsides and few of the freedoms.

    They need somewhere to be (repeatedly) told that as a company they dont get those protections but they may actually be a disguised employee, they just need to have the gumption to stand up for themselves and argue their corner.

    Equally employers need to see the issues so they know what to ask psc's, agencies, interviewees so they all understand the rules, regs and relative responsibilities
    In addition, if the poster is an ordinary employee, every employee's issue is, by definition, also an employer's issue so should be of interest to employers on these forums.
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    In addition, if the poster is an ordinary employee, every employee's issue is, by definition, also an employer's issue so should be of interest to employers on these forums.

    Yes but we can just ask you instead of getting a load of hassle and lip off an employee that can't conduct themselves ?
     
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    youcangetjules

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    I used to contract briefly before going perm and it was amazing how quickly and efficiently you could be shown the door (current issues aside it never happened to me) but i know a few stories of fellow contractors making a slip up and if it was a biggie or you had attitude about it they generally weren't seen again, not much in the way of process at all it was just a case of come in, hand over your laptop, off you pop. As already stated you don't get employment rights as such normally as it's a B2B relationship.

    On the race front, I didn't read the OP in a manner that would cause offense but I'd certainly repeat advice to be cautious, if you don't need to mention it then don't. I say this because one colleague contractor I do vaguely remember was a bit outspoken, and whilst nothing he said was actually offensive, it was just always close to the wire and unnecessary mentions and if you tried to sort of edge him away from it he'd vocally spout that he wasn't being offensive and state his rights to voice his thoughts when not offensive rather than just take the hint and change topic, which is allright if a director isn't walking past you at the time overhearing you now having an argument whether we're being racist or not. Anyone fancy a corporate dose of guilt by association?

    Eventually he just became risky to talk to, got a bit of a rep for it and eventually disappeared into the ether. He probably technically was in the right and had a heart of gold but being right doesn't give you rights as a contractor. If I recall it right it was head down, deliver the project, forget politics and save for a rainier day.
    You nailed it. You’re not there for your glowing personality, save that for the BBQ with your mates. You are there to deliver, so keep your head down and do exactly that.
    And pray that St. Shenanigans doesn’t single you out for a prank or two. I know many people who fit the description you make above - probably me included. Generally speaking though I am senior enough, done enough miles, contributed enough, and hopefully have a good enough attitude to work and my team that my glaring personality blunders don’t hang me.
    the counterpoint to all of this is 90%of my life has been as a contractor - no such thing as performance reviews, just a renewal if you’re of value. This one time I fell foul of the politics, and man did it sting.
     
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    youcangetjules

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    Wow, what a thread discussion this one is.

    Frankly, I would have cut the OPs contract and got rid of him!

    Sorry, but at worst he reads like a total self opinionated tool to me and at best certainly hard work based on his comments. Even the opening post was like reading war and peace
    Why bother even posting nonsense like this up here unless you were just asking for some equal degree of nonsense back.
    Or your woke mate Jeremy who struggles a bit with English was egging you on.
    if you’re going to post something here, stick to the point, not just randomly attack someone who you know absolutely nothing about.
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    Why bother even posting nonsense like this up here unless you were just asking for some equal degree of nonsense back.
    Or your woke mate Jeremy who struggles a bit with English was egging you on.
    if you’re going to post something here, stick to the point, not just randomly attack someone who you know absolutely nothing about.
    Woke I'm a Tory FFS
    It is well documented and known by the members on here that I am educationally challenged and you came late to the party They normally get what I'm on about
    Luckily I am not the sort of person to let that get in the way

    If you really want it full barrel
    I might remind you that your the serv around here being told what to do by somebody and they are controlling your life
    Thats not happening to me

    Ps That was a nasty dig from me but justified under the circumstances
     
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    youcangetjules

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    Well it all depends how much you want the £

    To be frank - contractors/temps allowing iffy agencies to get away with taking short cuts is why iffy agencies exist and good ones struggle.

    If an agency playing by the rules quotes for a member of staff to do what you were doing at the same headline hourly rate but with holiday/NI/pensions etc then for the same margin they would have to charge likely 15% more - hence agency cutting corners wins the business.

    No wonder the agent you were dealing gets on well with you - you aren't asking any difficult questions or demanding he follow the law with regard to your employment.

    You can't be happy to ignore a bit of the law that you want (having to pay deductions etc) and still want the law to help you with other bits (unfair dismissal)
    The money is not the issue. I am well paid for my work and am grateful that I am where I am. Working up the front end of brand new technology has me like a kid in a candy store.
    The point you make about the agency loving me however is difficult - on the one hand you suggest to be (and correct me if I am wrong here) straight down the line with these guys and say contract says X, give me X. But if the company I supply to says no - on the spectrum of options are: scream ever louder and risk your professional reputation, quietly insist they owe you and I am expecting them to pay, or be a simp and tell yourself better luck next time.
    The clear option in these I think is the middle one. Yes they are unlikely to pay, and added to that is the small issue that the end customer doesn’t have a clear PoC with regard to these issues. HR - speak to finance. Finance - speak to HR. And around it goes.
     
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    youcangetjules

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    Woke I'm a Tory FFS
    It is well documented and known by the members on here that I am educationally challenged and you came late to the party They normally get what I'm on about
    Luckily I am not the sort of person to let that get in the way

    If you really want it full barrel
    I might remind you that your the serv around here being told what to do by somebody and they are controlling your life
    I don't have to do that and I say what goes on around here (not on the forum ...my yard:))
    So I would think about who gets the best results between the two of us and it wont be you

    Ps That was a nasty dig from me but justified under the circumstances
    That’s not nasty. I get what you’re saying and please accept my apologies.
    If you want to see what nasty looks like, try being crossed examined by a psychotic barrister when you are representing government and therefore by definition “the bad guy” - they don’t pay you enough to weather that sort of storm.
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    That’s not nasty. I get what you’re saying and please accept my apologies.
    If you want to see what nasty looks like, try being crossed examined by a psychotic barrister when you are representing government and therefore by definition “the bad guy” - they don’t pay you enough to weather that sort of storm.
    I'm not sure why I would try that.

    We also have a psychopath barista here in town He kicks off proper but he makes lovely coffee
     
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    Porky

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    Why bother even posting nonsense like this up here unless you were just asking for some equal degree of nonsense back.
    Or your woke mate Jeremy who struggles a bit with English was egging you on.
    if you’re going to post something here, stick to the point, not just randomly attack someone who you know absolutely nothing about.
    Because your entire opening post is such utter nonsense it’s hardly worth with the effort from me or any other community member here to invest time in you!

    You are not seeking support, I’m not sure what you want here other than to rant about your line manager and diss your other colleagues with both sexist and racial undertones.

    You were not on PAYE you were an external contractor, you had a month hand over to finish your work but two weeks in started working elsewhere and clearly didn’t finish your work off.

    My advice to you is to reflect on your actions and work on improving your general attitude going forward. The company that offered you work doesn’t owe you a living, it is however down to you to work to a professional standard. You have done them a disservice IMO.

    The post reminds many of us the importance of “gardening leave” where a possible disruptive staff member can cause your more hassle retaining them for a notice period then just removing them from the company immediately.
     
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    youcangetjules

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    Because your entire opening post is such utter nonsense it’s hardly worth with the effort from me or any other community member here to invest time in you!

    You are not seeking support, I’m not sure what you want here other than to rant about your line manager and diss your other colleagues with both sexist and racial undertones.

    You were not on PAYE you were an external contractor, you had a month hand over to finish your work but two weeks in started working elsewhere and clearly didn’t finish your work off.

    My advice to you is to reflect on your actions and work on improving your general attitude going forward. The company that offered you work doesn’t owe you a living, it is however down to you to work to a professional standard. You have done them a disservice IMO.

    The post reminds many of us the importance of “gardening leave” where a possible disruptive staff member can cause your more hassle retaining them for a notice period then just removing them from the company immediately.
    You make an excellent point on gardening leave.
    Put yourself in my position. I was blamed for the shortcomings of a v1.0 product that was the first of its kind anywhere to be commercially deployed (I did not know that, the confidence with which they told me that this was ready to go was impressive. It wasn’t), no, it must be the project managers fault that after 6 months and a team of about 4 people we cannot fix the software that is based around a tome of specifications like 3GPP (look it up for yourself, and remember I am a delegate there) - I needed a team of 40.
    So yep, I’m annoyed. I’d also stepped down from executive leadership to a humble PM role after a catastrophic bloodbath in a previous company that’s got nothing to do with me, just I was one of the people with the crosshairs on their back. I don’t even know most of the people who took me down. But zero problem with the move - as a technical expert it is kindof expected you‘d move back into a “coal face” role from time to time, there are no complaints there, most of my cohort have done it.
    It’s when a very junior project manager (she’s perm, I’m a dirty Contractor, and That’s the way it is) is suddenly put in charge (we have 15 years difference in experience, to quantify things out), and starts telling me how to do my job, and won’t take no for an answer that I stand my ground. I’d stand my ground 1 million times over. Every single opportunity to agree with her and bolster I took. She’s clearly smart and driven, and hey what’s not to like about smart and driven - that’s me too. Some people don’t mix however, and I had 4 or 5 offers by the end of that week.
    Now gardening leave. Durrr. I’ve had the uncomfortable experience of having to fire a few people. Not one have I not put on gardening leave. Give someone you’ve fired on any grounds whatsoever a month to be grumpy while still with hands on tools, and yeah, no sh*t, what do you expect will happen.
    only problem is when that person is managing half a dozen projects - gardening leave doesn’t work. At least the company got that bit right. tying your hands while you’re doing a handover however - I raised this with my line and his line as we’re all still on good terms, its where company practise and unthinking process trumps common sense. But do you think a VP really cares about the status of individual projects - they don’t. There’s a massive dividing line there.
    But yes, you’re correct - gardening leave immediately when at all possible, don’t let the haters start stinking the place up. They will.
     
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    fisicx

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    So can we go back to what it is you actually want. Because I’m not at all sure.

    Your last post feels even more like a litany of bitter complaints which may be justified but you were a contractor and we’re always at the bottom of the food chains.

    Last time I did some contract work I was expected to train up my successor. I refused as it wasn’t part of the contact (always read the fine print).
     
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    youcangetjules

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    Is it because youre attcking jelly that refuses to be nailed to a wall?
    To answer the question above about what my ask here is, it is this - what are my rights here against what the gov.uk website states.
    What it says is not law, it is guidance, Cyndy and a few others cleared up that i am not am employee, next, yes, i am seeking redress and at least a reason for a sudden dismissal, and no, i dont care about the money, preserving my working relationships is of infinitely more value.
    And dont worry about offending me, nothing said above ruffles me. I just filter the invective out. Im here for advice.
     
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    fisicx

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    You have zero rights as a contractor.

    All you can do is take legal action for alleged breach of contract.
     
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    IanSuth

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    The money is not the issue. I am well paid for my work and am grateful that I am where I am. Working up the front end of brand new technology has me like a kid in a candy store.
    The point you make about the agency loving me however is difficult - on the one hand you suggest to be (and correct me if I am wrong here) straight down the line with these guys and say contract says X, give me X. But if the company I supply to says no - on the spectrum of options are: scream ever louder and risk your professional reputation, quietly insist they owe you and I am expecting them to pay, or be a simp and tell yourself better luck next time.
    The clear option in these I think is the middle one. Yes they are unlikely to pay, and added to that is the small issue that the end customer doesn’t have a clear PoC with regard to these issues. HR - speak to finance. Finance - speak to HR. And around it goes.
    Sorry but I worked in an agency, was a manager in an agency and part owned an agency over 27 years - all IT in the Thames Valley. I also took the industry exams (bet you didnt even know they existed) and when it existed sat on the local branch of the industry body.


    With regard to right:

    Either you are a PAYE temp or you are a ltd co contractor (of which umbrella is a subset).

    If you are the former then you have various statutory protections - one of which is the illegality of a pay when paid clause. That is because Temps are deemed to be the wrong side of the power dynamic in the employment relationship and thus need protecting.

    If you are the latter then you are not a person you are a person working for a ltd company - that ltd company has a contract with another company (usually the agency) the contents of that contract are king. As a company you do not have the protections of an individual as companies are deemed to have sufficient expertise to be able to negotiate and sign contracts understanding the risks and rewards. Unless you are one of the minority who have a direct contract with the client (usually when extra control of IP is needed) then your B2B contract with Agency Ltd is the only thing that matters along with all the particulars of assignment etc. If you decided to opt out of the AWD that is your companies decision.

    I will ask again as you ignored it

    What documents were you given prior to commencing the work - what were they titled, what notice was written into them ?

    A lot of what you wrote at the beginning was written as if you were employed as a member of staff, you are asking about statutory rights and protections that you think you might be owed AS IF A MEMBER OF STAFF yet you say you have contracted for years.
    If you are a working through a LTD the rights you have are yours as an individual against youcangetjules LTD as that is your employer.

    Client limited has NO legal employment responsibilities to you (other than some H&S) unless you want to argue that you were in fact a disguised employee (which you may very well be from the working conditions you describe)

    There is no way to ascribe employer status to that company and demand/claim any type of recompense without getting the agency involved and questioning their legality/compliance with laws as well.

    Some of the biggest are the sharpest with their practices

    So make a decision and stick with it

    Be a ltd co contractor, get you big boy pants on, accept you are swimming with sharks and take the hits along with the higher £ph and reduced stoppages

    or

    Decide you want protections, work under PAYE rules, accept stoppages and the extra security.


    There is no halfway house that exists other than in the minds of many contractors who are only that on paper.

    Monday morning rant over
     
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    paulears

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    This has been a train wreck from first post really. Goalposts and facts morphing and ebbing all the time.

    I work for myself, which for some jobs makes me a contractor. I know exactly what my status is. Only the words in the contract, if I have one, and for me, loads of jobs are almost contract-less. Be at X at 2pm on X. That is it, until the job ends and I put in the invoice. These clients know what I charge, so don't even ask, but me saying yes stops them worrying. Other work is more up front and has agreed terms. From one end to the other, If I get let down, I know I have zero rights, unlike other people working on these things who may be hourly paid, with holiday pay and all the other nice things.

    I get the impression the OP knew this, and his later posts that detail his experience and depth of understanding support this view.

    My question is "what answer did he actually expect, or hope to get?" because the first response was the right one - you're not an employee, so you don;t get any employee rights. I'm at a loss to work out why he continued. This first response hasn't changed has it! The people you work for owe you zilch. You did work for them, they paid. At some point they didn't renew. Sad. Hardly unexpected though?
     
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    Newchodge

    Moderator
  • Business Listing
    Nov 8, 2012
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    Newcastle
    This has been a train wreck from first post really. Goalposts and facts morphing and ebbing all the time.

    I work for myself, which for some jobs makes me a contractor. I know exactly what my status is. Only the words in the contract, if I have one, and for me, loads of jobs are almost contract-less. Be at X at 2pm on X. That is it, until the job ends and I put in the invoice. These clients know what I charge, so don't even ask, but me saying yes stops them worrying. Other work is more up front and has agreed terms. From one end to the other, If I get let down, I know I have zero rights, unlike other people working on these things who may be hourly paid, with holiday pay and all the other nice things.

    I get the impression the OP knew this, and his later posts that detail his experience and depth of understanding support this view.

    My question is "what answer did he actually expect, or hope to get?" because the first response was the right one - you're not an employee, so you don;t get any employee rights. I'm at a loss to work out why he continued. This first response hasn't changed has it! The people you work for owe you zilch. You did work for them, they paid. At some point they didn't renew. Sad. Hardly unexpected though?
    May I suggest that my post # 15 answers that?
     
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