Dismissed due to bad performance & Mental Health

[anonsek14]

Hello,

As some may have read my earlier threads, I've a family member who suffers from schrizophrenia. Unfortunately he has been dismissed from his job today due to bad performance. This caught him and me off guard as I met with him a few days ago and he said everything is fine. Then 3 days later I find out through our mother he's been fast tracked to the final stage of his company's disciplinary process.

Not too sure what to make of this to be honest. I know because of his condition, he sometimes has trouble focusing and keeping on top of things. Back in October after coming back from holiday, he was displaying some symptoms which indicated he may be having a relapse. However these symptoms seem to iron themselves out as the clinic where he has his quarterly depot injection confrimed he has received his latest injection and noted it may take up to six weeks for it to have full effect. From what he's told me , he's been accused of gross neglience. His job is a customer service rep for a housing association so his job consists of logging requests for tenant repairs on their computer system. I think what has happened that he , either knowingly or unknowingly, forgot to log the job requests on the system, somebody has made a complaint and here we are. I've told him to keep all paperworks given and I'll meet with him on Sunday to discuss ways forward.

THink its important not to jump the gun or overreact because I'm obviosuly not there to see what has gone down. My question is would he disclosing his mental health condition before signing the employment contract upfront gone in his favour and might have encouraged his employers to take a less severe disciplinairy route ? From what he's told me so far, they've strung this on him out of the blue after the holiday period ( no one wants to be sacked during xmas/new year period ) . Surely they've missed a few steps here -1st written warning, 2nd written warning , final warning etc ) .

I've had previous communication with his HR rep and line manager and both have repeatedly pressed me for more info about him. I refrained from disclosing his mental health condition as I'm unsure as to whether it will work in his favour or not . Him disclosing it now during the capability meeting I think would make him look more dishonest but disclosing it when the red flags started to appear might have made his employer take a more compassionate response. I've got the phone numbers of both his HR rep and line manager, should i call them and explain matters ? Guess its too late now and he's been dismissed so they're not going to change their mind now.

Going forward, I guess he has to consider more carefully what jobs he applies for and whether his employer will make alllowances for potential applicants who have specific mental health issues. He just has to avoid applying to jobs to those who take a more a dispassionate approach to these matters.


As always thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,

 

[Chris Ashdown]

What is the worst that can happen, if you inform them is the same, as if you don't, but being aware of his medical history and using that to understand his work before this happened may make them understand and be lenient
Obviously you need to get his permission before you get involved

 

[anonsek14]

so it is too late as they've alrady made their decision.

Anyway Im seeking advice through other sources and will see him on Sunday

 

[HFE Signs]

All stages of the disciplinary procedure written out in your employment contract must be met otherwise you have a case. Even in cases of gross misconduct the procedure must be followed

 

[anonsek14]

Based on what my brother has said, it hasn't been followed, they've moved to stage 3 immediately.

If after talking with him, he has a case, what is the best course of action ? HIm finding an employment solicitor . Of course this has to be coupled with him finding another job pronto so it may not be worth it.

 

[HFE Signs]

Contact Acas, they will explain everything in detail and advise you, generally in cases like this the employer will offer you an out of court settlement which you may be able to negotiate up. Best of luck

 

[WaveJumper]

I think the important thing here is being in possession of all the facts until then its very hard for anyone to give a definitive answer. How long has your brother been employed by them

Disciplinary and grievance procedures | Acas

How workplace disciplinary and grievance issues should be handled.

www.acas.org.uk

 

[eteb3]

would he disclosing his mental health condition before signing the employment contract upfront gone in his favour and might have encouraged his employers to take a less severe disciplinairy route ?

schizophrenia is a disability and if he declares it the employer must make reasonable adjustments

That doesn’t mean he can perform less well than others but the way he does his work can be adjusted

If you don’t tell the employer they have no obligation. Whether it can actually go against you if you spring it on them later, and they feel it was dishonest, I don’t know for sure. My understanding is that you have no obligation to disclose, but can’t expect reasonable adjustments if you don’t . But I’m not sure about that; there might be an implied warranty by applying that you’re fit for the job
(“You” used impersonally here: read “one” or “your brother”)

Did you try speaking to ReThink, or at least Check their fact files online? Always very helpful ime

 

[eteb3]

PS an experienced employer in the civil service told me, when I asked this question in very similar circumstances, that the only likely effect is to make the employer more jumpy: they may go through the motions of a more thorough capability process but it will be defensive to close off a disability discrimination claim, not authentic problem-solving. Better tell them early, or not at all

 

[fisicx]

Consider also that when they applied for the job there was almost certainly a question asking about any medical or health issues. If they didn’t declare anything the employer can’t be expected to make adjustments as @eteb3 said. It could even be argued they falsified a legal document.

 

[GraemeL]

Based on what my brother has said, it hasn't been followed, they've moved to stage 3 immediately.

Gross misconduct or negligence might well go to final stage directly, that will usually be stated in the disciplinary polcy

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Had he worked for them longer than 2 years , as that makes a big difference

 

[Newchodge]

All stages of the disciplinary procedure written out in your employment contract must be met otherwise you have a case. Even in cases of gross misconduct the procedure must be followed

And every disciplinary procedure allows the process to start at any stage. If the employee has stolen £5,000 from the employer they don't have to start with an informal discussion but can go straight to gross misconduct dismissal!

 

[Newchodge]

Consider also that when they applied for the job there was almost certainly a question asking about any medical or health issues. If they didn’t declare anything the employer can’t be expected to make adjustments as @eteb3 said. It could even be argued they falsified a legal document.

There is NO requirement ever to declare ill health unless there is a danger of a serious health and safety issue. An HGV driver, for example, would be expected to declare eyesight problems. If you don't declare a disability and the employer has no reason to believe that there may be a disability, the employer has no obligation to make reasonable adjustments during employment.

 

[Newchodge]

OP

It is most unlikely that the employer would have gone straight to gross misconduct dismissal if this were a case of a single instance of forgetting to record a repair. Please don't do anything until you know what happened. Ask your sibling if they want you to go through all the papers relating to the issue. Telling the ex employers now that there was a disability issue would be pointless. They don't have to take into account when deciding if the dismissal was fair, as they did not know about it when the dismissal took place. If anything it may make it more likely that the dismissal would be upheld, to avoid potetial issues in the future.

 

[HFE Signs]

And every disciplinary procedure allows the process to start at any stage. If the employee has stolen £5,000 from the employer they don't have to start with an informal discussion but can go straight to gross misconduct dismissal!

Of course, likewise with an act of violence - but in the case mentioned I doubt there is a case for Gross Misconduct if they are performance managing him out.

 

[Newchodge]

Of course, likewise with an act of violence - but in the case mentioned I doubt there is a case for Gross Misconduct if they are performance managing him out.

But we have zero information about the employee's history or the actual reason for dismissal.

 

[UKSBD]

The person is a customer service rep for a housing association who is not logging requests for tenant repairs on their computer system properly.

There is a strong possibility vulnerable people are being affected by this.

Is this really the right sort of job for this person?

You may be trying to help, but could you be causing more problems for them?

 

[HFE Signs]

But we have zero information about the employee's history or the actual reason for dismissal.

It does clearly state in the opening paragraph 'Unfortunately he has been dismissed from his job today due to bad performance', so this is what I was assuming to be the case here. Obviously, I can only comment based upon the information provided and other factors may well play a part.

 

[japancool]

unless there is a danger of a serious health and safety issue.

Yeah, I'd quite like to know that the pilot of my flight isn't going to drop dead in the middle of a take-off.

 

[japancool]

The person is a customer service rep for a housing association who is not logging requests for tenant repairs on their computer system properly.

I imagine that if requests aren't being logged that result in breaches of the law and/or health or safety issues for tenants, that would be gross misconduct.

 

[UKSBD]

Yeah, I'd quite like to know that the pilot of my flight isn't going to drop dead in the middle of a take-off.

If the person has had a tenant report an issue with a gas boiler and not logged this report, that could become a life-threatening issue.

 

[japancool]

If the person has had a tenant report an issue with a gas boiler and not logged this report, that could become a life-threatening issue.

Yep. In an instance like that, the employer would be fully justified, in my view.

 

[HFE Signs]

If the person has had a tenant report an issue with a gas boiler and not logged this report, that could become a life-threatening issue.

Agreed, but this would be termed as Gross Negligence rather than bad performance.

 

[Newchodge]

Agreed, but this would be termed as Gross Negligence rather than bad performance.

We only know what the OP has been told by their sibling, who had also told them, 3 days before the dismissal, that everything was fine. That may, or may not, be accurate. Speculation without knowing the facts is pretty pointless.

EDIT: The OP stated he had been accused of gross negligence.

 

[UKSBD]

Agreed, but this would be termed as Gross Negligence rather than bad performance.

Maybe the 1st unlogged report they noticed was a leaking tap, they looked in to it more, realised they weren't logging more important issues, it became obvious that employing them was dangerous and it was escalated to Gross Negligence.

Imagine a family dies due to these non-logged reports and they were aware of the issue, heads would roll and they could end up in serious trouble.

 

[HFE Signs]

We only know what the OP has been told by their sibling, who had also told them, 3 days before the dismissal, that everything was fine. That may, or may not, be accurate. Speculation without knowing the facts is pretty pointless.

EDIT: The OP stated he had been accused of gross negligence.

But shouldn't the disciplinary procedures be made clear in their employment contract for both Misconduct and Gross Misconduct and those procedures correctly followed? I guess it there is some confusion over which it is that could be where the confusion is.

 

[Newchodge]

But shouldn't the disciplinary procedures be made clear in their employment contract for both Misconduct and Gross Misconduct and those procedures correctly followed? I guess it there is some confusion over which it is that could be where the confusion is.

Yes. We don't know that they weren't.

 

[anonsek14]

Hi All,

Just spent the weekend talking to mum and brother. The latter is down but I gave him a pep talk and seems more up and motivated to deal with situation at hand.

He had been in this role 14 months. What triggered this latest downward spiral was a holiday trip to Morocco which I think brought some of his symptoms to the forefront and caused his behaviour to deviate from normal. He has some understanding I think of his condition but not full awareness and there is of course an element of personal pride and ego in not admitting he has this condition. Thankfully when I've seen him today he hasn't had a full relapse otherwise I would be on the phone to the mental health team pleading for assistance.

I've got his permission to speak to his former employer in order to gain some feedback and find out exactly what happened. It turns out they had warned him about his performance back in December but he kept it to himself because he throught he could handle it. Clearly he couldn't and things came to a head this past week.

Despite what some have said on this thread, I still think it would be a useful exercise and at least give some insight into how things might have panned out. He did not disclose it when he signed his employment contract so I want to know if he'd done that or if I'd told them when they were pressing my mother and I heavily back in October , would things have panned out differently.

I, of course, will make sure from the beginning of the conversation that what I'm about to discuss is not going to affect his final payment or the references they will give. At any case it will just be a basic reference ( i.e confirming start and end date ) . there is something for him to learn and I've told him he needs to be honest when applying for jobs about his conditon and see if they will make allowances /adjustments for him and maybe better protect him in case it comes to a disciplinary again. IF they are going to discriminate, then don't apply there and move on. I'm hoping after speaking with his ex employer they will say they would've taken a different approach to his performance issues ( whether its being more leneint or more severe, they will confirm that )


The discplinairy pack along with p45, p60, references details will follow iin the post in the coming week and I've told him to keep it to one side so I can have a read. He has agreed to this.

I'm also trying to find out through my HR team is what does the UK law state about employing people with mental health issues ? IS it a case of depending on the severity of the condition, potenital employers are free to use their discretion in deciding who they want to employ ? This is actually the 2nd time this has happened to him so I think giving them advance warning of his condition might change their approach in managing him during his tenure in any job he manages to get in the future.

If any case, there is nothing to lose at this stage. The worst has happened. Now its a case of picking up the pieces from the wreckage and moving on.....

 

[Newchodge]

I'm also trying to find out through my HR team is what does the UK law state about employing people with mental health issues ?

It is covered by the Equalities Act. A person with a disability may not be discriminated against because of the disability and the employer must make reasonable adjustments to help the employee stay employed. Memtal Health issues and Physical Health issues are treated in exactly the same way. The employer cannot be accused of breaching the Act if they did not know and could not have known about the disability.

 

[anonsek14]

thanks, i just need to know from the horses mouth what full disclosure from the outset or during the tenure might have affected the course the disciplinary action taken. Lesson hopefully learned and we move on...

 

[Newchodge]

thanks, i just need to know from the horses mouth what full disclosure from the outset or during the tenure might have affected the course the disciplinary action taken. Lesson hopefully learned and we move on...

You cannot ever know. Even if they tell you, and mean it, that they would have acted differently, you (and they) can't know if that would have made the slightest difference.

 

[anonsek14]

but had he disclosed it when he signed the contract, would they've commissioned medical reports to assess the severity of the condition and made a judgment call on whether to recruit him or not ?

Anyway nothing to lose at this stage, everything's been lost. Just feel its very important for him to learn from it so it doesn't happen again...

 

[Newchodge]

but had he disclosed it when he signed the contract, would they've commissioned medical reports to assess the severity of the condition and made a judgment call on whether to recruit him or not ?

What? Give him the job (signed the contract), then get a medical assessment and sack him because he has a disability. Disability discrimination claim immediately.

EDIT My advice would be to disclose nothing until employment has started then have a disclosure conversation with the employer.

 

[anonsek14]

and then what, twiddle his thumbs until they decide to keep or get rid of him ? They can still get rid of him after employment has started as they will say he didn't disclose it when the contract was signed. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

Surely tis better to know this upfront. IF a potential employer is going to discriminate against people with specific conditions, its best to find this out if possible before he even applies to a role.

 

[Newchodge]

and then what, twiddle his thumbs until they decide to keep or get rid of him ? They can still get rid of him after employment has started as they will say he didn't disclose it when the contract was signed. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

Surely tis better to know this upfront. IF a potential employer is going to discriminate against people with specific conditions, its best to find this out if possible before he even applies to a role.

There is no requirement to disclose a medical condition when applying for a job.

 

[HFE Signs]

There is no requirement to disclose a medical condition when applying for a job.

After the job offer they may issue a health questionnaire - this is usually done to confirm they can perform the job and to check if any reasonable adjustments are required.

 

[eteb3]

At the risk of repeating myself, have you spoken to the ReThink helpline? They are a schizophrenia support charity and know the ins and outs of this and the law better than anyone. I can tell you that from experience.

I will grub up the number for you:

Looking for advice about mental illness? We can help.

The Rethink Mental Illness advice service can offer practical support on a wide range of topics such as diagnosis & treatment, The Mental Health Act, welfare benefits and carers rights. Visit our advice pages at www.rethink.org/adviceservice

www.rethink.org

They have a good section on work, too:

Reasonable adjustments at work.

Many people with a mental illness have a legal right to ask an employer for changes to be made to their jobs and workplaces. These changes ensure that, as long as you have the rights skills for it, there are no barriers to you being able to apply for or carry out a job.

www.rethink.org

and then what, twiddle his thumbs until they decide to keep or get rid of him ? They can still get rid of him after employment has started as they will say he didn't disclose it when the contract was signed. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Surely tis better to know this upfront. IF a potential employer is going to discriminate against people with specific conditions, its best to find this out if possible before he even applies to a role.

I agree with Newchodge that the time to disclose is immediately after appointment. Even the employer may prefer that: if you disclose before, you make their hiring decision more difficult, because if they're going to turn down the application on normal, non-discriminatory grounds, they still have to think how insulate themselves from a disability discrimination claim. That might mean (though illegally) that he doesn't even make the sift, to simplify things their side.

Morocco

Fwiw travel, especially in markedly different cultures, is a fairly common trigger for psychosis. As you may know.

 

[japancool]

Sorry, but this is what happens when mental health issues aren't disclosed:

Germanwings Flight 9525 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A bit late to be talking about discrimination and gross misconduct then, at least for the people on the plane.

 

[Newchodge]

Sorry, but this is what happens when mental health issues aren't disclosed:

Germanwings Flight 9525 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A bit late to be talking about discrimination and gross misconduct then, at least for the people on the plane.

As I said in #14

"There is NO requirement ever to declare ill health unless there is a danger of a serious health and safety issue. An HGV driver, for example, would be expected to declare eyesight problems."

In this dreadful case there is. of course, a ewquirement to declare. If anyone can suggest HOW the employer could have known in advance of the flight of this issue?