Dismissed due to bad performance & Mental Health

[japancool]

In this dreadful case there is. of course, a ewquirement to declare. If anyone can suggest HOW the employer could have known in advance of the flight of this issue?

From the doctor who declared him unfit to fly the day before perhaps, but German law does not permit the employer access to the patient's medical records.

 

[Newchodge]

From the doctor who declared him unfit to fly the day before perhaps, but German law does not permit the employer access to the patient's medical records.

I am not aware of any law that allows that.

 

[japancool]

I am not aware of any law that allows that.

Well, perhaps it should.

 

[eteb3]

Well, perhaps it should.

Come off it. The way you do it is for pilots to submit to an occupational health assessment. They can give permission for the OH doctor to access their records, but not the employer.

So often we glibly say the solution to a problem is to hand someone who has some power even more of it. Sure we can do that, but let’s not pretend there won’t be downsides. Watch while HIV positive pilots are mysteriously derostered, for example. In the context of this thread, you seem to be implying that to avoid someone with schizophrenia not recording a little old lady’s boiler problem, the employer should know who has an STI, who once had depression, who’s had an abortion , etc.

Employers will just have to suck up the fact that they have to manage their employees’ behaviour as they find it, without deep intelligence as to possible (possible!) causes. They’re irrelevant.

 

[japancool]

The way you do it is for pilots to submit to an occupational health assessment.

Which only takes place at certain intervals. You're asking a mentally unstable person to self report.

We ask doctors to report suspected abuse, so why not ask them to report other things that could put people in danger?

 

[eteb3]

That's more reasonable, though I'm still not sure I'd agree. From your comment I understood you wanted to give employers access to medical records:

German law does not permit the employer access to the patient's medical records.

 

[Newchodge]

Which only takes place at certain intervals. You're asking a mentally unstable person to self report.

We ask doctors to report suspected abuse, so why not ask them to report other things that could put people in danger?

A doctor's role is to provide medical care for their patient. The requirement to report suspected child abuse has only fairly recently been introduced and is hedged around by all sorts of safeguards for the doctor, the parents and the child.

What you appear to want is that a doctor should report someone who has suicidal thoughts, mental illness, alcohol or substance issues and so on. That is just not realistic.

What should happen is that the employer takes responsibility for managing staff ill health.

 

[japancool]

What you appear to want is that a doctor should report someone who has suicidal thoughts, mental illness, alcohol or substance issues and so on. That is just not realistic.

Why?

 

[Newchodge]

Why?

Becasue the employer will have so many reports they would not be able to assess which ones need action.

 

[japancool]

Becasue the employer will have so many reports they would not be able to assess which ones need action.

I doubt that. If an airline knows a pilot is suicidal, they will know it's a more serious issue than a flight attendant being stressed. That's what training manuals and procedures are for.

And how is the employer supposed to know? Have them do a mental health check before every flight?

 

[Newchodge]

I doubt that. If an airline knows a pilot is suicidal, they will know it's a more serious issue than a flight attendant being stressed. That's what training manuals and procedures are for.

And how is the employer supposed to know? Have them do a mental health check before every flight?

You are limiting the idea to pilots and solely to suicide. What about HGV drivers? train drivers? Bus drivers? Firemen? Police Officers? Health professionals? Teachers?

 

[japancool]

You are limiting the idea to pilots and solely to suicide. What about HGV drivers? train drivers? Bus drivers? Firemen? Police Officers? Health professionals? Teachers?

Them too. Would you like them to undergo a mental health check each time they clock on for work?

And in this particular case, it's not that someone didn't know he had issues. Someone DID. They just didn't tell anyone.

 

[Newchodge]

Them too. Would you like them to undergo a mental health check each time they clock on for work?

And in this particular case, it's not that someone didn't know he had issues. Someone DID. They just didn't tell anyone.

They absolutely did not know he would commit suicide murder while flying the plane!

 

[japancool]

They absolutely did not know he would commit suicide murder while flying the plane!

He was declared unfit to work. They had an idea.

 

[eteb3]

Them too. Would you like them to undergo a mental health check each time they clock on for work?

You seem to be extrapolating from one highly unusual case (the German pilot suicide) to all mental health problems. The vast, vast, majority of mental health problems are not dangerous for anyone - even the sufferer. They are part of the normal fabric of life and need to be dealt with accordingly.

 

[Newchodge]

He was declared unfit to work. They had an idea.

He would have been declared unfit to work if he had flu.

 

[japancool]

You seem to be extrapolating from one highly unusual case (the German pilot suicide) to all mental health problems. The vast, vast, majority of mental health problems are not dangerous for anyone - even the sufferer. They are part of the normal fabric of life and need to be dealt with accordingly.

But where they ARE, and the sufferer is in a high-risk job where a lot of damage could be caused, then why not?

Clearly, they aren't part of the "normal" fabric of life as some people - like the Southport attacker - can't handle them.

 

[japancool]

He would have been declared unfit to work if he had flu.

And the person who declared him unfit knew it wasn't because he had the flu.

And in his particular occupation, him flying with the flu could also have caused a tragedy, so that doesn't really matter.

 

[Newchodge]

And the person who declared him unfit knew he didn't have the flu.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[ethical PR]

Hello,

As some may have read my earlier threads, I've a family member who suffers from schrizophrenia. Unfortunately he has been dismissed from his job today due to bad performance. This caught him and me off guard as I met with him a few days ago and he said everything is fine. Then 3 days later I find out through our mother he's been fast tracked to the final stage of his company's disciplinary process.

Not too sure what to make of this to be honest. I know because of his condition, he sometimes has trouble focusing and keeping on top of things. Back in October after coming back from holiday, he was displaying some symptoms which indicated he may be having a relapse. However these symptoms seem to iron themselves out as the clinic where he has his quarterly depot injection confrimed he has received his latest injection and noted it may take up to six weeks for it to have full effect. From what he's told me , he's been accused of gross neglience. His job is a customer service rep for a housing association so his job consists of logging requests for tenant repairs on their computer system. I think what has happened that he , either knowingly or unknowingly, forgot to log the job requests on the system, somebody has made a complaint and here we are. I've told him to keep all paperworks given and I'll meet with him on Sunday to discuss ways forward.

THink its important not to jump the gun or overreact because I'm obviosuly not there to see what has gone down. My question is would he disclosing his mental health condition before signing the employment contract upfront gone in his favour and might have encouraged his employers to take a less severe disciplinairy route ? From what he's told me so far, they've strung this on him out of the blue after the holiday period ( no one wants to be sacked during xmas/new year period ) . Surely they've missed a few steps here -1st written warning, 2nd written warning , final warning etc ) .

I've had previous communication with his HR rep and line manager and both have repeatedly pressed me for more info about him. I refrained from disclosing his mental health condition as I'm unsure as to whether it will work in his favour or not . Him disclosing it now during the capability meeting I think would make him look more dishonest but disclosing it when the red flags started to appear might have made his employer take a more compassionate response. I've got the phone numbers of both his HR rep and line manager, should i call them and explain matters ? Guess its too late now and he's been dismissed so they're not going to change their mind now.

Going forward, I guess he has to consider more carefully what jobs he applies for and whether his employer will make alllowances for potential applicants who have specific mental health issues. He just has to avoid applying to jobs to those who take a more a dispassionate approach to these matters.


As always thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,

I think the important thing is to focus on is helping your brother focus on getting the support he needs so he can go back to work (if that's what he wants to do) and if so what work might suit him best . A stressful customer service role may not be best for him.

I think there's little point in trying to prove unfair dismissal . It won't help him move forward .

However if that's what he wants to do then AcAS rather than a business forum is who you should be talking to.

 

[ethical PR]

Contact Acas, they will explain everything in detail and advise you, generally in cases like this the employer will offer you an out of court settlement which you may be able to negotiate up. Best of luck

Not if they haven't done anything wrong

 

[ethical PR]

Hi All,

Just spent the weekend talking to mum and brother. The latter is down but I gave him a pep talk and seems more up and motivated to deal with situation at hand.

He had been in this role 14 months. What triggered this latest downward spiral was a holiday trip to Morocco which I think brought some of his symptoms to the forefront and caused his behaviour to deviate from normal. He has some understanding I think of his condition but not full awareness and there is of course an element of personal pride and ego in not admitting he has this condition. Thankfully when I've seen him today he hasn't had a full relapse otherwise I would be on the phone to the mental health team pleading for assistance.

I've got his permission to speak to his former employer in order to gain some feedback and find out exactly what happened. It turns out they had warned him about his performance back in December but he kept it to himself because he throught he could handle it. Clearly he couldn't and things came to a head this past week.

Despite what some have said on this thread, I still think it would be a useful exercise and at least give some insight into how things might have panned out. He did not disclose it when he signed his employment contract so I want to know if he'd done that or if I'd told them when they were pressing my mother and I heavily back in October , would things have panned out differently.

I, of course, will make sure from the beginning of the conversation that what I'm about to discuss is not going to affect his final payment or the references they will give. At any case it will just be a basic reference ( i.e confirming start and end date ) . there is something for him to learn and I've told him he needs to be honest when applying for jobs about his conditon and see if they will make allowances /adjustments for him and maybe better protect him in case it comes to a disciplinary again. IF they are going to discriminate, then don't apply there and move on. I'm hoping after speaking with his ex employer they will say they would've taken a different approach to his performance issues ( whether its being more leneint or more severe, they will confirm that )


The discplinairy pack along with p45, p60, references details will follow iin the post in the coming week and I've told him to keep it to one side so I can have a read. He has agreed to this.

I'm also trying to find out through my HR team is what does the UK law state about employing people with mental health issues ? IS it a case of depending on the severity of the condition, potenital employers are free to use their discretion in deciding who they want to employ ? This is actually the 2nd time this has happened to him so I think giving them advance warning of his condition might change their approach in managing him during his tenure in any job he manages to get in the future.

If any case, there is nothing to lose at this stage. The worst has happened. Now its a case of picking up the pieces from the wreckage and moving on.....

What did AcAs advise when you asked them these questions?

 

[HFE Signs]

Not if they haven't done anything wrong

I'm sure Acas will still offer their advice

 

[ethical PR]

I'm sure Acas will still offer their advice

Of course yes