Difficult customer refusing to pay their bill

[MattRob]

Hi,

My name is Matt and I am a small business owner. This is my first time here, but I'm excited to become part of the community and contribute wherever I can.

The reason for creating this post is because after 3 years of trading we've finally encountered a situation where we have a customer that is refusing to pay their bill and being extremely difficult in the process.

We have call recordings and have carefully listened to these and presented the customer with exact excerpts of the initial conversation where they booked our services for a day.

Their bill is over £800 for almost 2 days work. The agreement was for one person to attend the site to carry out various works. We sent 2 people because one of the tasks was to move a washing machine up a flight of stairs, so we agreed that a second person would help out just for that task.

The customer is unhappy with the amount of work that was achieved, but the reason for this was that they didn't have the correct parts available, so one of the workers went off-site to purchase them while the additional worker stayed on-site to work on other tasks as directed by the customer.

The bottom line is that yesterday my colleague (one of the directors) had a lengthy conversation with the husband, who was being extremely belligerent. In the end, my colleague became so frustrated that he blurted out ‘we're not coming back and we’re wiping the bill clean’ before ending the call.

Is this statement legally binding? My colleague had no right to say this to the customer because he is one of 2 directors in this company so I am wondering if I can still chase payment for this work.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

Welcome and sorry to hear of your predicament.

My colleague had no right to say this to the customer because he is one of 2 directors

So he had every right to say it!

Anyway, what does your written contract or quote say and did you do the work?

 

[MattRob]

Thanks for your reply.

We didn't quote for the work. The customer called up and wanted us to spend a day at their house which had had some recent renovations. During the initial conversation, she mentioned that some of the tasks would be installing 3 taps and a washing machine, as well other tasks. She, and her husband, were on-site for the whole day, often wasting time by discussing separate issues with us and walking us around the property to discuss underfloor heating, shower pressure, as well as lots of other bits.

My point is that they were effectively the projects managers for the day and gave us direction on which tasks to complete. The fact that they didn't have adequate parts and materials is not our fault. We resolved this by purchasing them on their behalf, to which they agreed. Now they are complaining that we had to leave the site and therefore haven't delivered on our promise. The fact of the matter is that they only ever paid for the labour of one person, and he stayed at the property for the entire day. We did them a favour by sending the 'helper' off to buy the parts. They are being completely unreasonable.

Their argument is that we didn't install the 3 taps she mentioned in her original conversation, so therefore we 'did nothing' and 'wasted their time'. One of the taps was completely the wring spec so she had to order a new one, so that couldn't have been fitted anyway.

They even had to replace That's just not true and we expect to be paid for our labour.

My concern is that my colleague said he was wiping the bill. Is this legally binding?

We do have terms and conditions on our website. We agreed on a day rate over the phone and this was accepted.

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

How much is owed? Are you able to put it down to experience and walk away?

From your post it looks like they are being difficult and are likely to say the director said he would clear the bill! So regardless of whether your director was right or not to say what he did, it is likely to lead to more confrontation.

I see no harm in pursuing the invoice, but be prepared for the response! At the very least, they should pay for the parts etc that they now have the benefit of.

Only surefire way of knowing your legal position is to talk to a lawyer.

 

[Deleted member 335660]

Hi,

My name is Matt and I am a small business owner. This is my first time here, but I'm excited to become part of the community and contribute wherever I can.

The reason for creating this post is because after 3 years of trading we've finally encountered a situation where we have a customer that is refusing to pay their bill and being extremely difficult in the process.

We have call recordings and have carefully listened to these and presented the customer with exact excerpts of the initial conversation where they booked our services for a day.

Their bill is over £800 for almost 2 days work. The agreement was for one person to attend the site to carry out various works. We sent 2 people because one of the tasks was to move a washing machine up a flight of stairs, so we agreed that a second person would help out just for that task.

The customer is unhappy with the amount of work that was achieved, but the reason for this was that they didn't have the correct parts available, so one of the workers went off-site to purchase them while the additional worker stayed on-site to work on other tasks as directed by the customer.

The bottom line is that yesterday my colleague (one of the directors) had a lengthy conversation with the husband, who was being extremely belligerent. In the end, my colleague became so frustrated that he blurted out ‘we're not coming back and we’re wiping the bill clean’ before ending the call.

Is this statement legally binding? My colleague had no right to say this to the customer because he is one of 2 directors in this company so I am wondering if I can still chase payment for this work.

Hi Matt,
I am not clear what you have done to get a £800 bill for two days work. However, you have two options. Either forget it and move on, or take them to the small claims court. For the latter you need proof of agreement by customer of what you quoted, proof of what has been done and proof you tried to address their complaints.

I would then send copies of your claim to them, asking for some level of payment or you will file the complaint with the court and claim for legal costs.

I would not worry too much about what your colleague said, if it was on the phone they are unlike to have a recording. It would be their word against yours and court would probably ignore it.

 

[MattRob]

Thanks for your input.

We carried out numerous tasks at their property. The breakdown of what we accomplished to warrant an £800 bill is something I'd prefer not to discuss here.

My initial conversation with the customer was based on the fact that they wanted 3 taps and a washing machine fitted. She said that it should take a day and then after agreeing on a day rate for the work she decided to book us in. She explained that there were plenty of other outstanding tasks. When we got there it looked like a lot of work was unfinished by their previous contractor, who appears to have just walked off-site and left all the materials for the taps lying around.

We didn't quote for the work. It was intimated that her husband would be there to explain the scope of the work once we arrived.

She did send a few videos of the sink area and the taps. However, she also needed the waste and pipework fitted, which was not mentioned. She is telling us that it was obvious from her videos. The husband told us before we arrived that the renovations were ongoing and the current builders didn't have the skillsets he needed right now, which is they called us. We weren't to know who was responsible for fitting the wastes and pipework. All that was mentioned in our initial conversation was taps. Anyway, we fitted all the waste etc for them. We didn't have an issue with that at all. They had agreed to employ our services for the day so we were there to do whatever they needed.

Prior to, and since, our visits we've had numerous telephone conversations, all of which are recorded for training and monitoring purposes, and they have never disputed that work was carried out. What they are saying is that they had to find 'fill in' work while new parts were purchased. This is not the case. Before we even set foot into the property we husband had discussed various works that he needed that would keep us busy for the whole day, and probably even longer.

I think we're just going to have to end up going down the small claims route. My biggest concern was the comment about wiping the bill that my colleague made. This customer is a lawyer so we are trying to be very careful.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

I wonder if you could find out who the previous contractor was and contact them to find out why they downed tools...? Might be revealing...

 

[Newchodge]

Their argument is that we didn't install the 3 taps she mentioned in her original conversation, so therefore we 'did nothing' and 'wasted their time'. One of the taps was completely the wring spec so she had to order a new one, so that couldn't have been fitted anyway.

Why didn't you fit the other 2?

 

[MattRob]

I wonder if you could find out who the previous contractor was and contact them to find out why they downed tools...? Might be revealing...

We have no way of finding out that information now, unfortunately.

 

[MattRob]

We fitted one tap of the three. The reason we could not install the remaining 2 on the day were:

1. The worktop was too deep for the thread on the tap. Therefore the tap could not be secured to the worktop.

2. The second tap wasn't fitted because by the time we'd finished working on other jobs there was no time left that day. We did explain that the hours were from 8 am to 5 pm

We were busy all day with other tasks including fitting a garden tap, checking over the underfloor heating system, correcting shower issues, correcting sanitary gun issues, all at the customer's request.

Additionally, just a half-an-hour break was taken, although we'd agreed to an hour.

We always go the extra mile to provide great customer service (our reviews confirm that) so we are really surprised we didn't meet the customer's expectations on this one. They were in the driving seat and giving us direction on which tasks should be worked on, and when, throughout the day.

 

[MattRob]

Why didn't you fit the other 2?

Apologies, I've replied above.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

We didn't quote for the work.

Well, there's your problem!

She said that it should take a day

So she is an expert at estimating & works?

she decided to book us in

Anyway, you have 2 choices - walk away and put it down to experience or go after your money!

 

[MBE2017]

OP, I hate losing money for any reason, but I think your real argument here should be with your other director. In your place after that statement was made I would walk away and earn from other clients, because I prefer to be known as keeping my word.

If you feel the director should not have said it have it out with them.

 

[MattRob]

Well, there's your problem!

So she is an expert at estimating & works?

Anyway, you have 2 choices - walk away and put it down to experience or go after your money!

Could I politely request that you don't post any more replies? I don't find your approach particularly helpful. You are just posting abrupt remarks without actually giving any context or explanation. I am fully aware of what my choices are. Can't believe you a mod here!

 

[MattRob]

OP, I hate losing money for any reason, but I think your real argument here should be with your other director. In your place after that statement was made I would walk away and earn from other clients, because I prefer to be known as keeping my word.

If you feel the director should not have said it have it out with them.

Thanks for your reply. I'm inclined to agree with you about putting effort into moving the business forward with other customers rather than focussing on this. Well said!

 

[Mark T Jones]

Personally it's one I'd probably pursue on principle.

You need precise, chronilogic notes on discussions held, events and jobs done/not one.

With regards to the employee's resonse, I'd simply state that they acted in frustration and had no authority to negotiate.

Formal final reminder. LBA. MCOL

 

[Newchodge]

Could I suggest that the lesson to be learnt from this is not to agree to a job until you have looked at it, established exactly what needs doing, made your own assessment of time and costs and given a written quote, specifying what the quote covers.

I get the impression that you are telling the customer something like an hourly rate. I have never heard of a contractor telling the customer the length of the working day and how much time will be taken for lunch. It is much more common to work to what is needed on the job.

 

[MattRob]

Personally it's one I'd probably pursue on principle.

You need precise, chronilogic notes on discussions held, events and jobs done/not one.

With regards to the employee's resonse, I'd simply state that they acted in frustration and had no authority to negotiate.

Formal final reminder. LBA. MCOL

I have actually received a long email from the customer about 10-minutes ago, outlining her concerns. I've yet to read them, but she does acknowledge that we were there all day.

I do have a precise trail of telephone conversations (all recorded)

Could I suggest that the lesson to be learnt from this is not to agree to a job until you have looked at it, established exactly what needs doing, made your own assessment of time and costs and given a written quote, specifying what the quote covers.

I get the impression that you are telling the customer something like an hourly rate. I have never heard of a contractor telling the customer the length of the working day and how much time will be taken for lunch. It is much more common to work to what is needed on the job.

Taking 1-2 hours out of the diary travel to the customers home and scope the works wasn't necessary on this occasion. The customer simply wanted to hire us for the day.

I'm intrigued as to how you know what is more common. Are you a tradesperson? I've been in the industry for years and there are multiple approaches when it comes to pricing up work including hourly rates, day rates, providing estimates, providing quotes...we do them all. In this instance, the customer asked to hire us for the day and allow her husband to dictate what work went ahead, and when.

 

[paulears]

The other thing you need to consider is that your loss isn't 800 pounds, it is only what it actually cost you - the 800 includes anticpated profit. Going to court without any form of written scheme of work agreed by the customer usually involves you justifying the amount - you'll say we quoted 800 for two days work, but they'll say you didn;t do two daya work etc etc but the end test will be down to what the judge considers reasonable. In all dispute between a firm with technical expertiese and a customer with nothing other than common sense is that void in the middle. Some businesses are traditonally expensive so when somebody wants thirty quid an hour you have a think. In your case, it would appear that the parts cost is three taps. Deduct the cost price of the three taps and divide by two days and that's a pretty high houry rate. Do the Judge Judy test - how would you respond to the question about your rate? Justify it in court. It seems that with just a few taps to fit, what were the unique features above what a general minimum paid worker would be paid for moving a washing machine etc? I'm onl guessing but they've seen the work and seen the price and spotted the mismatch.

So in a way, the posts saying suck it up or take action are correct. They will stand in court and mention your comment about wiping the bill - Did you say that, says the judge? Yes - you say but it was said in the heat of the moment. End of case. Put yourself in the judges seat. They deal with contracts - if you said it, that forms part of the contract. If you lie, and they recorded you, like you recorded them, the cost is going to be considerably high if they catch you!

What did two days cost you (ignore the extra person, that was your choice, not theirs) is life that bad? Move on and don't fall out with your partner - who made a basic business decision, and I agree with him - finish it, walk away and get on!

 

[MattRob]

The other thing you need to consider is that your loss isn't 800 pounds, it is only what it actually cost you - the 800 includes anticpated profit. Going to court without any form of written scheme of work agreed by the customer usually involves you justifying the amount - you'll say we quoted 800 for two days work, but they'll say you didn;t do two daya work etc etc but the end test will be down to what the judge considers reasonable. In all dispute between a firm with technical expertiese and a customer with nothing other than common sense is that void in the middle. Some businesses are traditonally expensive so when somebody wants thirty quid an hour you have a think. In your case, it would appear that the parts cost is three taps. Deduct the cost price of the three taps and divide by two days and that's a pretty high houry rate. Do the Judge Judy test - how would you respond to the question about your rate? Justify it in court. It seems that with just a few taps to fit, what were the unique features above what a general minimum paid worker would be paid for moving a washing machine etc? I'm onl guessing but they've seen the work and seen the price and spotted the mismatch.

So in a way, the posts saying suck it up or take action are correct. They will stand in court and mention your comment about wiping the bill - Did you say that, says the judge? Yes - you say but it was said in the heat of the moment. End of case. Put yourself in the judges seat. They deal with contracts - if you said it, that forms part of the contract. If you lie, and they recorded you, like you recorded them, the cost is going to be considerably high if they catch you!

What did two days cost you (ignore the extra person, that was your choice, not theirs) is life that bad? Move on and don't fall out with your partner - who made a basic business decision, and I agree with him - finish it, walk away and get on!

Thank you so very much. This is most helpful. Thanks for taking the time to be so thorough, it's very much appreciated.

 

[NickGrogan]

n the end, my colleague became so frustrated that he blurted out ‘we're not coming back and we’re wiping the bill clean’ before ending the call.

If he is a director then he has every right to say it, and I would expect it to be binding. The customer has no way of knowing how your company is structured, so if a representative of the company says something it should be binding.

Secondly, if he didn't have the authority to make decisions, why was he the one calling the client?

 

[Big G]

Paulears is pretty spot on with his advice in my opinion. I run a debt recovery company too so its not often you guys will probably hear me say that!

The fact that you did not quote and then did not finish the job and then told them that you will forget it and wipe the bill is just too much of a risk to pursue in my opinion.

Will the statement made on the phone stand up in court? Honestly, no one in here or anywhere can tell you that until you got to court. Only the judge on the day can make that decision if they were to even bring it up in a defence. They argue your colleague said it and you argue it was a heat of the moment comment and not binding. The problem your argument brings is why should this statement not be binding but the other oral statements and agreements should be?

On saying all of this, I don't think that you should just write it off without at least trying to recover some money. I agree that legal proceedings will be too risky on it but at least send them a formal invoice for the full amount and request payment within 7 days. Then send them a without prejudice letter offering a 50% settlement or something due to the fact that the job did not go to plan for whatever reason. Allow them 7 days to accept this offer & pay and draw a line under it or it is retracted. If they do not accept it then consider putting down to experience or even lower the offer.

My point is that its worth at least trying to recover something.

Good luck!

 

[MattRob]

If he is a director then he has every right to say it, and I would expect it to be binding. The customer has no way of knowing how your company is structured, so if a representative of the company says something it should be binding.

Secondly, if he didn't have the authority to make decisions, why was he the one calling the client?

Absolutely, I agree with you. I didn't explain myself very well. I suppose I meant to say that he had no right (morally) to wipe the bill without discussing it with me first.

 

[MattRob]

Paulears is pretty spot on with his advice in my opinion. I run a debt recovery company too so its not often you guys will probably hear me say that!

The fact that you did not quote and then did not finish the job and then told them that you will forget it and wipe the bill is just too much of a risk to pursue in my opinion.

Will the statement made on the phone stand up in court? Honestly, no one in here or anywhere can tell you that until you got to court. Only the judge on the day can make that decision if they were to even bring it up in a defence. They argue your colleague said it and you argue it was a heat of the moment comment and not binding. The problem your argument brings is why should this statement not be binding but the other oral statements and agreements should be?

On saying all of this, I don't think that you should just write it off without at least trying to recover some money. I agree that legal proceedings will be too risky on it but at least send them a formal invoice for the full amount and request payment within 7 days. Then send them a without prejudice letter offering a 50% settlement or something due to the fact that the job did not go to plan for whatever reason. Allow them 7 days to accept this offer & pay and draw a line under it or it is retracted. If they do not accept it then consider putting down to experience or even lower the offer.

My point is that its worth at least trying to recover something.

Good luck!

Thank you so much. This is really helpful. I'm in absolute agreement with everything you say here. Thank you again.

 

[Fagin2021]

Them: "But you said that you're wiping the bill clean!"

You: "Yes - so we can prepare a new bill taking into account all the work we did. You didn't think we meant we're writing it off did you?"

 

[MattRob]

Them: "But you said that you're wiping the bill clean!"

You: "Yes - so we can prepare a new bill taking into account all the work we did. You didn't think we meant we're writing it off did you?"

Yes, that's fantastic. Thanks.

 

[IanSuth]

Have you considered asking a neighbour if they remember the name on the van of the preceding work contractors - might be worth a 2 min chat, also if they are that much of a nightmare they will likely have annoyed the neighbours over something as well and you will get the full SP which will help you decide how to procede

 

[Lisa Thomas]

Absolutely, I agree with you. I didn't explain myself very well. I suppose I meant to say that he had no right (morally) to wipe the bill without discussing it with me first.

Surely the buck stops with the Director - their decision would override yours, unless you are also a Director?

 

[SillyBill]

Perhaps I am fortunate to be able to look at things differently; I have a brilliant co-director/co-owner. I certainly would not expect him to consult me on the vast majority of decisions he takes at operational level (we put trust in one another to do that) and if he asked me to do likewise he'd get a very curt response. If I told a customer to get lost and I'm wiping the bill (in frustration or not) that would be the end of it, move on, I'm the acting representative of the business at that moment. Same, vice versa. I will of course have been very frustrated many a time with what has been done or often what hasn't been done by my fellow director, as I am sure he has of me, communicate that frustration and move on is the recipe to success. I'd personally not go one step further and undermine by reversing a call they made over something like £800.00, there is a bigger picture in there; best to say IMO you disagreed with the call (as is your right) and then roll with another day's punches.

Sounds like you've picked up a special customer. I've lost the energy to defend principles anymore for certain monetary amounts (appreciate everyone has different numbers) and if I feel like I've reeled in a special case I discharge as quickly as possible and count my lucky stars losses have been minimised. It is a simple calculation of aggro factor vs. income potential I'd run through the internal computer.

 

[tony84]

If a director has said they are wiping the bill, I would expect that to stand.
Whether or not you agree with it is a little bit late in the day, you went into business with the other person. You both have the right (presumably) to cancel debts.

You know how you said calls are recording for training purposes, maybe you need to put the business partner on a training course on how you want them to deal with problem customers.

Ask your business partner to pay the debt or at least your share of the debt, they are the one who wiped it.

- You say the lady sent you photos and videos and you were not to know who would be fitting the waste pipe... Would that not have been the opportunity for you to ask? I am not saying I would have done anything different to you here, it is easy to take people at face value, but this could be a lesson you learn from for in the future? You could have turned the job into a 2 day job by picking up on the extra bits needed or if they were going to be problem customers they would have gone to the next company who were cheaper and this would have been their problem.

How much as a business have you actually lost? Could you not put this down as a lesson? You (or whoever priced up the jobs) to maybe ask a few more questions and your business partner to not be so rash on the phone?

It does not sound like you (as in the business) are without fault. I am not sure I would have written off the debt in full, but I think I would have made a gesture. However I think the damage is done and you just need to take this one on the chin and learn from it.

 

[Nord20]

However I think the damage is done and you just need to take this one on the chin and learn from it.

Tony is spot on - you may end up getting *something* from the client, but at this point I would not anticipate all of it without a fight, which is not worth it.

From an anger-management point of view (because I'd be annoyed too), perspective can help:

You have, unwillingly perhaps, purchased some very valuable information - that your current way of operating can lead to this kind of problem, which is both stressful and unnecessary. So figure out what you can do differently, to avoid it happening again (many good pointers in this thread), implement it and consider it money well spent. It could save you a fortune in the future if it avoids this happening on a much bigger job.

 

[Financial-Modeller]

It sounds like next time you need to much more wary of jobs to fit the customer's kit, against those where you are fitting kit that you are also supplying, and know it will fit, IYSWIM.

But:

...The fact of the matter is that they only ever paid for the labour of one person, and he stayed at the property for the entire day...

This suggests that your customer has paid approximately half of the cost of labour, but has not paid you for parts that you sourced for them, but didn't fit? Did the customer retain the parts or were you able to return the parts (taps etc) to your supplier?

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

It sounds like next time you need to much more wary of jobs to fit the customer's kit, against those where you are fitting kit that you are also supplying, and know it will fit, IYSWIM.

But:


This suggests that your customer has paid approximately half of the cost of labour, but has not paid you for parts that you sourced for them, but didn't fit? Did the customer retain the parts or were you able to return the parts (taps etc) to your supplier?

I thought the customer already had and supplied the taps?