Current Developers causing us issues please help

[fastprint.co.uk]

We have a fair bit of work done across a number of sites over the last 5 years with the same Web Company, the issue we have is that they treat us like dirt now (The code I believe makes it harder for us to move) and even though we want to send 20 - 30hrs a week of work to them they are not interested as they do not have the time.

The specs that i manage to put together are below (from job listings and asking them)



Hand-coding HTML5, CSS3 using MS Visual Studio

VB.Net

Good understanding of Javascript and Json/XML

Jquery experience

Good understanding of Web Forms

Some of the above isn't necessarily required (HTML5, CSS3 & Javascript are main ones) but would certainly help as they would understand our code better.



The site is built on .NET

framework is ASP.NET

CMS is VB.NET


How hard would it be to hire someone in house with the above skills or do agency's fit the bill better.

We would average around £1000 - £1500 budget a week.(agency around £50 per hour on 20hrs and hire on £30hr per hour for 40hrs)

 

[fisicx]

Hand-coding HTML5, CSS3 using MS Visual Studio
VB.Net
CMS is VB.NET

It's specs like this that will put most people off bidding for work. It's old technology. There are so many better and easier ways to build a website that you would be far better off investing in a modern and well supported CMS.

 

[The Byre]

We have a customer that is just like you. He insists on using old methods and one-by-one, engineers just are no longer prepared to work with him.

He has the money to pay and pay well, but nobody is prepared to faff about with written notes and old ideas that no longer make sense in today's world. In the end, we have had to turn his work away, as he just is not prepared to change. He would rather spend thousands unnecessarily, than change.

 

[finleydesign]

As above, we find so many old school developers using old school solutions, which in turn as you are finding make it more complex to get involved or allow others to get involved.

Some times it can be better to cut your losses and look at starting a fresh, you might be pleasantly surprised as what cost saving can be achieved and the solutions that can be easily developed to handle jobs like these

It seem there are many developers trying to reinvent the wheel, when half the time it doesn't need to be that involved, then blind you with computer science to some how justify their on-going and often over the top charges.

 

[fastprint.co.uk]

The problem is not that i am will not bend and change the language the sites are created in, the issue is that i have 3 sites that are fully built with 1000's of hours of dev work.

So what you are saying is that i am going to stuggle and there is not much chance of getting someone to work on this code, so do i need to rebuild the sites and if so what language do we use to keep it up to date (at one point the way we built our sites would have been up to date).

The reason we went with them is due to there sites winning multiple E commerce awards.

 

[fastprint.co.uk]

Also how much of the coding from one of our sites www.fastprint.co.uk would you say could be moved over to a new language or would it all have to be rewritten?

 

[Newchodge]

So what you are saying is that i am going to stuggle and there is not much chance of getting someone to work on this code, so do i need to rebuild the sites and if so what language do we use to keep it up to date (at one point the way we built our sites would have been up to date).

I remember my father buying a brand new Austin Cambridge car in about 1969. It was the first new car he had and we all loved it. For some reason he ended up having to scrap it about 20 years later because the garages would no longer repair it. I call that a complete waste.

 

[Peter Bowen]

Also how much of the coding from one of our sites www.fastprint.co.uk would you say could be moved over to a new language or would it all have to be rewritten?

You'll find that the business logic can and should be re-used but the actual code that makes that logic possible is unlikely to be worth recycling.

I went through a similar exercise in December last year where I had to upgrade a 6yr old website/application that was working fine but not in a language that was supported anymore. We probably share the same biggest challenge in this - the business has to keep running while the upgrade happens.

I'd be happy to talk you through my experience with this and discuss some of the things I wish I'd done differently. PM if interested.

 

[The Byre]

the business has to keep running while the upgrade happens.

One builds a whole new site or sites and when they are ready, the dot-com is pointed at the new site.

Just make sure that all rights, copyrights, access passwords. etc. remain with you for the new site and that you control the dot-com.

 

[Alan]

I think that people here are over egging VB.NET being old technology, after all VB.NET was only introduced in 2009.

But it is true - the vast majority of hip developers wouldn't be seen dead building witha MS product when there is cool technologies like Node.js

I'm sort of surprised that you are having difficulties, but then again not if the agency is only charging £30/hour ( 40 hours ) this really isn't a viable rate.. The median VB.NET contractor rate is £350/day ( £50/hour) and an agency ( with management / bench time / marketing / profit margin ) really should be charging at least double, i.e. £100/hour.

If you were to take on a contractor you would need to keep them busy an average of 4 days a week ( allowing for time off / hols etc ) so a budget of a round £1,500 / week would be sufficient. I'm sure you could recruit a contractor.

- edit -

I haven't addressed the idea of moving to anew technology - but there may well be a business case - but the devil is in the detail - would you still be spending £1,500 a week anyway?

 

[fastprint.co.uk]

So what would you do in my position, I would like to hire someone internal and do see that our current website could do with being in a more widespread language but do we rebuild or try to find someone to code how it is now?

IS PHP still popular?

 

[fisicx]

The problem is not that i am will not bend and change the language the sites are created in, the issue is that i have 3 sites that are fully built with 1000's of hours of dev work.

Except you will discover a modern CMS won't need all that development work as the functionality is built in to the CMS (or can be easily added). Looking at fastprint.co.uk there is nothing complicated about that site. You could get the whole thing replicated for well under the £6000 you expect to pay a VB developer in a month

So what you are saying is that i am going to stuggle and there is not much chance of getting someone to work on this code

Yes

so do i need to rebuild the sites and if so what language do we use to keep it up to date (at one point the way we built our sites would have been up to date).

The language isn't important. What matters is you use a supported platform that get regular updates.

The reason we went with them is due to there sites winning multiple E commerce awards.

This means nothing. Winning an award doesn't mean they are any good at what they do, it just means they have won lots of awards.

So what would you do in my position

Start again using a recognised and supported CMS

IS PHP still popular?

Yes. Hugely so.

 

[Alan]

Just took a look too, there seems nothing complicated, I am surprised you have £6,000 a month of ongoing updates, if course I don't have the detail of what changes have been specified.

PHP is very popular.

 

[fastprint.co.uk]

Fastprint is the easier site i think the issue is that 90% of the work is done in the backend such as our quote tool on the site etc.

would it be easier to hire a PHP developer vs needing someone with the current coding?

We are going to be doing a lot of work building an independent design / customer CMS where all of are sites send the artwork and order info to it could you see if we took on board someone with PHP us having any issues making it work with the sites as this would be a good way to get someone on board and do you think they could pick up the code we use for our site just for basic things?

I do believe we could use the current dev's to help plug it in to the sites.

We could then slowly move are sites over to PHP.

 

[Alan]

I would not think it that way around.

First I would clearly define your system architecture, and make the strategic decisions around the technologies. Then based on that strategy hire the right resources.

Hiring people based on 'easieness' isn't sound.

You probably don't have the skills to make those decisions, but you can pay for consultancy, whist spending say £10grand just for direction might not bode well, it may save a lot long term.

 

[fastprint.co.uk]

Sorry I may have presented myself incorrectly, even if i hire someone it is going to take months for them to learn and we do not want the first job to be redoing the whole site.

We have an independent CMS going to be built by the same guys (which we really don't want to build in .ASP / .NET), if i have someone build this for us (in PHP) at least i have made a start on moving the sites over even if for now we have to keep working with them on the sites. We can then replace the sites one by one over the next 2 years.

I am just asking if we can see any issues with the sites communicating if they are on 2 different platforms.

 

[The Byre]

Just start from scratch and save yourself a small fortune!

Trying to botch a mix of old stuff and new framework is begging for trouble and expense!

As things stand, much of the site does not translate to iPhones, for example all that blue menu at the top of the home page just vanishes. So keeping that and trying to repair it, will be like knitting fog. Finding old faults in html sites can be both hard and very time-consuming.

By the time some poor sap has fathomed out where the blue top menu went on a phone, he/she could have built half or all of the whole damn page!

It's like so many things nowadays. Stuff that took ages and cost a fortune to get right ten years ago, is now a free plug-in!

 

[fisicx]

Sorry I may have presented myself incorrectly, even if i hire someone it is going to take months for them to learn and we do not want the first job to be redoing the whole site.

The first job is to redo the whole site. It will be cheaper and quicker than bodging the existing site, (which is pretty naff). There are a whole load of things that are pants or just don't work so it looks like your current developers have been taking your money and delivering very little.

We have an independent CMS going to be built by the same guys (which we really don't want to build in .ASP / .NET)

That's just stupid. You could replicate and improve the whole site using wordpress in less than a week.

I am just asking if we can see any issues with the sites communicating if they are on 2 different platforms.

YES!

 

[fastprint.co.uk]

We would be looking to build on PHP and not sure what you mean by half the site does not work?

I also do not think you realize how much goes off in the background as there is a lot, yes the sites are basic on the front end but most of it is the bells and whistles that make it what it is.

• Integration with mail chimp sending customer info
• Trust pilot product and service reviews sent via button next to customer name in CMS
• Quote tool so agents logged in can see different views to customers + upselling
• download lists for management
• Internal tracking system with stats
• file generated for DPD
• Automated emails from CMS to departments and customers
• Download artwork files to network drive plus renaming etc
• Full design tool http://www.fastprint.co.uk/design-tool/ (still working on the upload section and bugs)
• upload artwork and upload later function
• referral function so customers get a code and can share it so if someone buys though it they get credit and the customer gets credit off the first order
• vouchers auto sent to customers
• reprint system with check at each stage (stops departments from updating without reading the notes etc)
• full edit of pricing on calculator in back end and Min mum order value
• and a fair few other things.

I just need to be careful as most of the items involving these sites can be done in around 6 months with the current devs but then we are going to build a system like this

http://www.discountstickerprinting.co.uk/Assets/User/50857-Admin_portal.pdf
http://www.discountstickerprinting.co.uk/Assets/User/50858-Customer_portal.pdf
http://www.discountstickerprinting.co.uk/Assets/User/50859-Designer_portal.pdf

for working with artwork (we are desperate for it) and i am trying to decide on if to build it in PHP and then slowly move the sites over one by one.

We would still need the artwork tool to work with the sites, could artwork and info not be sent in a type of API call and would this not work if the site is .ASP/.NET and we built it in PHP?

 

[fisicx]

There are a whole bunch of tools you can install that will manage your workflow. No need to get anything bespoke developed

And most of the things in your list are pretty basic, it's the sort of thing I build all the time.

You have two options:

1. Stick with the current developers
2. Find someone new

Either way if you want longevity you need to junk the current bespoke CMS and start anew with an established platform. I understand your reluctance but you aren't going to achieve what you want with the existing system. Bite the bullet and start over again - you will be in a so much better position in the long term.

 

[Peter Bowen]

One builds a whole new site or sites and when they are ready, the dot-com is pointed at the new site.

Just make sure that all rights, copyrights, access passwords. etc. remain with you for the new site and that you control the dot-com.

That might work for a simple website but in my case, and in @fastprint.co.uk 's case there is a lot more going on under the hood than meets the eye. In my case the database had 69 tables, the biggest table has more than a million records, there were API connections in and out. Everything had to remain live as it serves a bunch of businesses who would be very unhappy if their sales leads stopped arriving.

I built the new site on PHP on the Laravel framework. I've used it for a few years so I'm quick and comfortable with it.

 

[finleydesign]

From looking at your list of requirements, these are already done and available, as someone mentioned before, you could replicate the entire site in wordpress fro CMS with woocommerce as your Ecommerce engine and away you go

Every feature above doesn't need to be developed or hand coded to fit, it's available now, you just need a web agency to piece it all together

Once done updating and on-going is a breeze! You really need to consider cutting your losses, there is no real sound reason based on the website to why it's custom coded or developed to the extent you have indicated

 

[Alan]

WordPress is a great framework for bashing up websites, and is extensively augmented by many many thousands of plugins, which makes it popular as bashing together a solution is relatively quick and inexpensive for small businesses that don't mind the odd compromise. I should know, I make my living from WordPress.

But considering WordPress as a PHP Web Development Framework there are many limitations or challenges that make evaluating alternative frameworks if your business requirements are complex and essential step in the architecture process.
Limitations ( sure limitations can be worked around) from an IT architects view point
- WP has a task management system ( wp-cron ) that isn't reliable
- WP doesn’t have a standard API for modelling data relationships. There is WP_Query and similar APIs, but they don’t represent models
- WP doesn't build in support fro Composer & NPM
- GPL - all derivative works are essentially open source, whether you like it or not or they are custom to you only.
- WP is inundated with 'free' plugin functionality (too much choice over 50,000 ), which is great short term for very small businesses, but free plugins have limited lifespans ( less than 2 years ) and no consistent access to support

Whilst Plugins make WP potentially and in expensive solution, and the REST API makes it one you potentially can integrate well too, it doesn't automatically quality it - but it should be on the short list.

Some one mentioned PHP Laravel as a backend and this is a very sensible suggestion.

The process you probably should go through is
1. block diagram the business processes and the flows between those processes
2. decide if any business processes need to be optimised
3. block diagram the application ( It systems functions) that overlay / support the BP
4. define the key elements and decide on build versus buy on those
5. evaluate and rank the technology sets that you would like to work with ( long list / short list ) and group them into similar categories that go well together
6. decide on the 'buy' elements include ing scoring them on technical fit to your desired target
..
..
..
99. Find an agency / contractor to deliver

 

[fisicx]

I agree in most of what you said but fastprint have two separate components: the customer facing part (the websites) and the print management function.

The first part is perfect for WordPress (or any other off the shelf CMS). The second part is the bespoke bit and shouldn't really be part of the website. It's a separate entity and there are loads of applications that will manage the workflow using the data from the what ever database you want. Best of all it can manage the workflow from multiple websites.

 

[fastprint.co.uk]

So can someone please explain what the issues with our current sites sending the order details and artwork (pdf, jpeg etc) uploaded by customers to a PHP written external site?


Once complete the PHP would send a file back (small jpeg, pdf etc) to match against the record on our current sites?

 

[fisicx]

Yes that's possible. But it still doesn't change the fact that the current sites need fixing. Lots of fixing. And if you want to integrate everything (website, workflow, customer portal) it's easier to do if it's all written in the same language. It means you can reuse a lot of the code and will be easier (and cheaper) to manange and upgrade.

And you can use the same codebase for each site. Especially if you use a wordpress multi-site. You would then have a single database managing all your websites. Costs will fall.

You won't have to send files back and forth, they will all be part of the same database.

Your current developers aren't interested in fixing/managing your sites so they will fall further and further behind until such time people just won't use your services anymore. But upgrading to a modern ans supported CMS that integrates with a CRM and accounts and so on will make your life so much simpler. And it also means you are not beholder to any one developer.

PS: I've been playing with your design tool and found it so awkward and clunky to use. It's almost impossible to do anything on a touch screen (which is what an awful lot of people use these days). You many benefit from getting a website review of this feature as the UX is very poor.

 

[antropy]

so do i need to rebuild the sites

Maybe but it does depend on what changes you need. If it's a lot on a regular basis then probably.

what language do we use to keep it up to date

As others have said, PHP has been steadily growing in popularity over a very long period of time and shows no sign of waning (despite people getting excited about Ruby on Rails and NodeJS).

If you're looking for a language that has a massive number of developers, massive amounts of open source software and frameworks already written, and incredible documentation all over the Internet then PHP is indeed the one.

Of the PHP ecommerce platforms we've reviewed most in a fair amount of detail and we like OpenCart and Prestashop.

 

[fisicx]

Except he does really have an ecommerce site. It's just a single order form bolted on to a bunch of pages. Nothing complicated at all.

All the funky stuff happens in the backend and should be independent from the websites.

@fastprint.co.uk says there are 1000s of hours of development but it difficult to see where this is. You can buy print management and workflow applications - there is no need to get anything developed.

 

[antropy]

Except he does really have an ecommerce site. It's just a single order form bolted on to a bunch of pages. Nothing complicated at all.

I don't think you've had a proper look through.

 

[fisicx]

Yes, I've a had a good look. Whilst there is an ordering and payment function that doesn't really make it an ecommerce store. Unless I've missed something.

I just see the 'configure and price' form.

 

[antropy]

Unless I've missed something.

Did you find the online designer?

 

[GeoMal]

WordPress is a great framework for bashing up websites, and is extensively augmented by many many thousands of plugins, which makes it popular as bashing together a solution is relatively quick and inexpensive for small businesses that don't mind the odd compromise. I should know, I make my living from WordPress.

But considering WordPress as a PHP Web Development Framework there are many limitations or challenges that make evaluating alternative frameworks if your business requirements are complex and essential step in the architecture process.
Limitations ( sure limitations can be worked around) from an IT architects view point
- WP has a task management system ( wp-cron ) that isn't reliable
- WP doesn’t have a standard API for modelling data relationships. There is WP_Query and similar APIs, but they don’t represent models
- WP doesn't build in support fro Composer & NPM
- GPL - all derivative works are essentially open source, whether you like it or not or they are custom to you only.
- WP is inundated with 'free' plugin functionality (too much choice over 50,000 ), which is great short term for very small businesses, but free plugins have limited lifespans ( less than 2 years ) and no consistent access to support

Whilst Plugins make WP potentially and in expensive solution, and the REST API makes it one you potentially can integrate well too, it doesn't automatically quality it - but it should be on the short list.

Some one mentioned PHP Laravel as a backend and this is a very sensible suggestion.

The process you probably should go through is
1. block diagram the business processes and the flows between those processes
2. decide if any business processes need to be optimised
3. block diagram the application ( It systems functions) that overlay / support the BP
4. define the key elements and decide on build versus buy on those
5. evaluate and rank the technology sets that you would like to work with ( long list / short list ) and group them into similar categories that go well together
6. decide on the 'buy' elements include ing scoring them on technical fit to your desired target
..
..
..
99. Find an agency / contractor to deliver

All of the above is very good advice.

That's just stupid. You could replicate and improve the whole site using wordpress in less than a week.

This is most certainly not good advice. So many times you hear this on UKBF; "just bang it out on Wordpress!". Give it a rest. VB.Net may not be the shiniest tool in the box, but there is nothing wrong with .NET itself, WP is most certainly not an improvement.

 

[antropy]

All of the above is very good advice.

Essentially yes, but I would modify it slightly. Alan suggests mapping out business processes and then using WordPress or Laravel.

I would suggest mapping out business processes and then searching opensourcecms.com and sourceforge.net for open source PHP platforms that are well rated, have a simple codebase and are very similar in functionality to what you're trying to achieve. Assessment of the codebase is best left to a developer to decide but anyone should be able to try out the demos of various platforms to assess how similar they are to the requirements.

This is most certainly not good advice. So many times you hear this on UKBF; "just bang it out on Wordpress!". Give it a rest.

Sorry @fisicx, a lot of what you say makes a lot of sense but if you can make a site anywhere near that one in less than a week I'll hire you at whatever rate you ask right now

 

[fisicx]

Did you find the online designer?

Yes. And I tried it and I gave up. It's a solution looking for a problem. There have been a number of these sort of online designers and they never deliver anything useful. The number of people who use the thing and then place an order never repays the cost of development.

The order form is a simple thing to put together - I can build these things in a day or two. The rest of the site isn't at all complicated. You could put together something far better than this in a week (or maybe two - the point is it's not a long process).

And if not wordpress, and CMs will do. The point is it's better to use a supported platform than to go bespoke. This is the point many have been making.

 

[antropy]

The order form is a simple thing to put together - I can build these things in a day or two.

You keep saying it's an online form rather than an ecommerce site but I'm not sure why you think that, it has:

• Customer Accounts
• A Basket
• Categories
• Product Pages with dynamic pricing

And everything is pretty bespoke and works exactly how it needs to. Sure you can mash some dodgy WordPress plugins together in a couple of weeks but they're not going to do exactly what this site currently does.

 

[Alan]

Alan suggests mapping out business processes and then using WordPress or Laravel.

To be clear that is not what I said or meant to say.

What I said hinges on point 4 - define the key elements and decide on build versus buy on those

Don't look at programming languages or frameworks before this point, it doesn't make sense.

It is just back to front to think about programming language or framework at this stage.

For completeness ( in alphabetical order) the back end (server) programming languages in common use are
C# / .NET
C++
Go
Node.js
Java
PHP
Python
Ruby

Talented programmers exist for all these languages

 

[fisicx]

Customer accounts is separate to the form and basket. The accounts function is part of the CRM and workflow and while there will be an interface on the site there is no direct link to the 'shop'.

The categorization and product management is a function of a CMS and leads you to the form and payment.

Doing some proper workflow, process design and overall digital representation of the business will give them a much better understanding of what's required. It's boring and tedious but essential. What seems to be happening at the moment with fastprint is they just keep bolting bits on without a full understanding of the whole.

This is what I consult in and it's the bit nearly everyone doesn't want to do. But if done properly you can save thousands in development costs.

 

[Alan]

This is what I consult in and it's the bit nearly everyone doesn't want to do.

Exactly, or more to the point pay for it. It is pointless pitching the concept to small businesses they just don't get the value add. I last pitched a detailed analysis to startup entrepreneur at only £20k and effectively but politely got laughed at ( they thought that £20k was more than their budgeted cost of the system projects ) no idea if they failed.

But the last full selection project I managed cost the client £600k, just to define the software packages required. But then when you consider it was a £10 million project, they understood the value of proper upfront thinking. The project succeeded of course.

 

[Nick Chambers]

ASP.Net is an excellent framework and I've been developing sites in it for 16 years.

Given the choice, I would always choose to develop a ASP.Net website in C# rather than VB.Net and I would always chose the newer MVC systems over the older Web Forms system.

Microsoft have no plans to discontinue VB.Net.

It's more about the way in which the code has been written rather than the choice of development language and I wouldn't scrap what you currently have.

Also, if your database is SQL Server, then that's another reason to stick with ASP.Net.

If I was redeveloping the site in PHP, then I would use a framework such as Laravel or Symfony.

I would also choose October CMS over Wordpress and for an ecommerce site, I would choose Sylius every time.

I'd be happy to take a look at your code.

 

[Alan]

Interesting, why would you pick October? In terms of current market share October is absolutely tiny?

And Sylius, well even more tiny, infact built with only reports a few hundred site.

Both are serious underdogs at the moment.