Copyright/Intellectual property

[billybob99]

I create a website for a client, quite a hefty bespoke ecommerce solution, we agreed a spec and signed it off. They paid 50% upfront as a deposit and the remaining was due upon completion.

There was no real "contract" so to speak, it was about 2 pages of how I would work, the work to be undertaken and timescales for delivery etc. The timescales did state 10 weeks but due to unforeseen circumstances I was not able to deliver and it has been around 4 months to date. The client however did not mention they were unhappy with this.

Only after transferring the ecommerce solution over to the client did I get a letter saying they were terminating the agreement for non-delivery within the original agreed timescales of 10 weeks.

They are still using the ecommerce solution day to day for their business.

I can hold my hands up for the mistakes on my part. But I just want to know is this a civil matter? And do I just go down the route of money owed? Or down the copyright aspect?

I feel if I go down the money owed then they will win due to not delivering within the original timeframes.

 

[LoganLand]

What was the total cost?

 

[billybob99]

What was the total cost?

The total cost was £4k, of which £2k remains.

 

[LoganLand]

I think based on the relatively low value, and you did deliver late maybe some negotiation is in order.

 

[MOIC]

Did you inform them there was going to be a delay?

If so, did they object to it?

Given they are using what you have developed, I think you will win your case very easily.

Go down both routes.

Money owed & Copyright.

Good luck

 

[paulears]

I agree - you had a dialogue, which maybe even forms a contract for a ten week project, 16 weeks really isn't good is it? They are making you suffer for keeping them waiting. As there's no real point pursuing it (because if you tried court, they'd simply state you were very late, and the judge would nod) I'd give it one more shot for a discounted final payment of £X and then move on if you don't get it. Will they need to come back to you for any updates or tweaks? That could be your way back in.

 

[billybob99]

Did you inform them there was going to be a delay?

If so, did they object to it?

Given they are using what you have developed, I think you will win your case very easily.

Go down both routes.

Money owed & Copyright.

Good luck

I didn't know there was going to be a delay so it just happened, obviously after the deadline has passed I continued working and continued updating the client as usual. It is just that the timescales dragged on and on.

Going down both routes is not really an option unless the costs are going to be relativity low.

 

[billybob99]

I agree - you had a dialogue, which maybe even forms a contract for a ten week project, 16 weeks really isn't good is it? They are making you suffer for keeping them waiting. As there's no real point pursuing it (because if you tried court, they'd simply state you were very late, and the judge would nod) I'd give it one more shot for a discounted final payment of £X and then move on if you don't get it. Will they need to come back to you for any updates or tweaks? That could be your way back in.

I agree there was a contract in place and I won't dispute that. 16 weeks is not good no, I had unforeseen circumstances which included 2 funerals, which I could not avoid, I made it clear to the client as soon as I found out, and the days which I would not be able to work on the project.

They won't need to specifically use me going forward, they could use any developer that is skilled in the particular language the solution was developed in.

 

[MOIC]

I can't see how your client can accept the work AND THEN say they dont' want to pay the balance due to it being late.

If that were the case, they should have objected, refused the delivery of the work and asked for their money back.

To add to this, they are using the work you agreed to do.

Go for the jugular!

 

[billybob99]

I agree it was late, but can they continue to use it? Isn't it technically theft as they have not paid for it, and until it is paid for, the developer owns the copyright to the code?

 

[MOIC]

BTW Ignore Napolean's quote on this one.

 

[billybob99]

BTW Ignore Napolean's quote on this one.

I am tempted, but like some of the above, I don't want to waste money if there is little chance of getting paid.

 

[MOIC]

If they have accepted the work, they have to pay for it.

If they wanted a discount for late work, they should have requested/negotiated this before accepting delivery.

They can't have their cake and eat it.

You are not in the wrong to pursue what is owed.

 

[billybob99]

I am happy to negotiate, and I did offer a reduction in the final invoice but I have not heard anything back.

I will see what my options are then.

 

[MOIC]

Don't offer more than 10%

What they have done is theft in my book.

Any negotiations (on their part) should have taken place BEFORE acceptance of the work.

 

[billybob99]

The last discussion/contact was when they said, can you transfer it to our server so we can beta test with a certain subset of users etc.

After that I was kicked off the server.

 

[MOIC]

The last discussion/contact was when they said, can you transfer it to our server so we can beta test with a certain subset of users etc.

After that I was kicked off the server.

Pure THEFT

Don't offer a discount!

 

[MOIC]

@smallclaimassistance might be able to help you.

 

[billybob99]

Thanks.

 

[MOIC]

Hopefully will be along soon...........

 

[paulears]

Two funerals caused all this delay? I'm really not trying to be funny, but if in ten weeks, you have been working so hard you can't find a couple of days, you priced the job wrong? When I have important deadlines, I just work until it's done - if that means 7am until midnight every day, then that's what it takes, but I never talk days or hours to clients. While I agree they should pay you, the timescale extension would be something tangible to argue in court over, and saying sorry Judge, I had a couple of funerals to go to doesn't sound right - even if each one involved going away for some days?

 

[billybob99]

I told the client I underestimated the work and they said as long as it was delivered to their standard the delay was okay. I'm not sure what industry you are in, but I have to give a reasonable expectation, that I can only give that by saying this will be complete in x amount of weeks from the start date etc.

 

[MOIC]

Two funerals caused all this delay? I'm really not trying to be funny, but if in ten weeks, you have been working so hard you can't find a couple of days, you priced the job wrong? When I have important deadlines, I just work until it's done - if that means 7am until midnight every day, then that's what it takes, but I never talk days or hours to clients. While I agree they should pay you, the timescale extension would be something tangible to argue in court over, and saying sorry Judge, I had a couple of funerals to go to doesn't sound right - even if each one involved going away for some days?

I think you're being unfair.

The OP has stated that he . . . "had unforeseen circumstances which included 2 funerals, which I could not avoid, I made it clear to the client as soon as I found out, and the days which I would not be able to work on the project."

This doesn't mean that these were the only reasons for the delay. (which was not argued over until after the client received the work)

I would also argue that if the funerals were close friends or family, it would be reasonable to expect a week off. You could not possibly work on an important project for a client if you emotionally affected by the funeral and loss of a loved one.

The whole point of this thread is not the 4 week delay, which is fairly normal in the field of the OP, but more importantly, the fact that the delay issue was not argued over until AFTER the client received the work and was given as the reason not to pay the balance.

They have used and are still using the work done by the OP.

You cannot go into a restaurant, order food, the main course arrives 30 minutes late, eat it, then demand you don't pay.

You have the option of not eating the food and requesting your deposit back for your starter.

Once you've eaten the food, you have to (legally) pay for it.

It's theft.

 

[billybob99]

I think you're being unfair.

The OP has stated that he . . . "had unforeseen circumstances which included 2 funerals, which I could not avoid, I made it clear to the client as soon as I found out, and the days which I would not be able to work on the project."

This doesn't mean that these were the only reasons for the delay. (which was not argued over until after the client received the work)

I would also argue that if the funerals were close friends or family, it would be reasonable to expect a week off. You could not possibly work on an important project for a client if you emotionally affected by the funeral and loss of a loved one.

The whole point of this thread is not the 4 week delay, which is fairly normal in the field of the OP, but more importantly, the fact that the delay issue was not argued over until AFTER the client received the work and was given as the reason not to pay the balance.

They have used and are still using the work done by the OP.

You cannot go into a restaurant, order food, the main course arrives 30 minutes late, eat it, then demand you don't pay.

You have the option of not eating the food and requesting your deposit back for your starter.

Once you've eaten the food, you have to (legally) pay for it.

It's theft.

Thanks. As you stated, I am not saying the funerals were an excuse, I am just pointing out they were part of the delay along with under estimating the timescales.

They did have plenty of time to say or cancel the agreement etc. but I believe they waited until it was completed, although their minds were made up long before.

 

[Norman Bailey]

Computer software (including web pages) and any associated databases are classified as “Literary works” under Section 3(1) of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 and therefore subject of copyright under English Law. Unless you signed something to hand this over before you started then you retain first copyright. They just have a licence to use it provided they cough up the agreed amount. And of course if you quoted for the job and subsequently they changed the specification then you have a right to extend the delivery time and cost.