Client won't pay and I have spent 15 hours arguing with him

[Ian PES]

Hello

I have a client who has decided they want to stop the project that I'm working on. That isn't a problem as such (tho' annoying and disappointing) but they owe £4000. Most of this is consultancy work (time based charges).

I won't go into too much detail except to say that I think I have a watertight case should it go to court. I have everything in writing and I can prove the work was done for him (many reports, designs, photos, timesheets etc).

In an attempt to get him to see reason I have spent about 15 hours over the last 6 weeks in very detailed length emails and trying to get him to have a meeting to go through everything but he refuses.

What I want to know is am I reasonably entitled now to bill him for this time as well? My game plan -such as it is- is to send an invoice for the 15 hours of email discussions (all recorded) but waive it if he pays the outstanding bills within 2 weeks. But I wanted to check on the likely legality of this before proceeding. If it ends up in court I could also offer to waive these additional charges which is the sort of thing judges like I believe (have done this once before and that strategy worked).

Thanks in advance

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

What do your terms & conditions state?

If it's in your T&C's and he's signed a contract and you've provided your T&C's then you have the right to charge him.

TBH if you're at a 6 week period of him not paying you now, send a letter stating that you're going to escalate it towards the courts if he's not paid in full within 7 days... if he still refuses... take him to court... by the sound of it you've wasted enough time and energy with him already.

 

[wpmechs.com]

You won't be able to bill for the time you describe, only what you're owed as part of your original contract. Also, I think as the amount claimed is less than 5k, you cannot claim legal costs as it's classified as a small claim.

 

[STDFR33]

15 hours? Jeez ...

You have spent at least 14 hours longer than you should have chasing this.

Send a letter before action. If the money doesn't come, sue.

You're clearly never going to reason with them.

 

[Gecko001]

It is obvious to me that wanting to charge for this 15 hours arguing with the client is written here out of frustration and/or anger. Calm down and think like a business person and do not act upon your emotions.

The 15 hours arguing with this client would have better been spent camping out at this client's office until you got paid to be honest.

BTW you would not get paid for this camping out either.

 

[Ian PES]

Thanks for the answers.

 

[Ian PES]

You won't be able to bill for the time you describe, only what you're owed as part of your original contract. Also, I think as the amount claimed is less than 5k, you cannot claim legal costs as it's classified as a small claim.

It is obvious to me that wanting to charge for this 15 hours arguing with the client is written here out of frustration and/or anger. Calm down and think like a business person and do not act upon your emotions.

.

....Er, thanks but I'm being calm as evidenced by the fact that I'm seeking advice here first....

 

[simon field]

Trying to charge for time spent chasing money is playing games - don't play games. Letter before action and go for the jugular, simple as that

 

[Ian PES]

Trying to charge for time spent chasing money is playing games - don't play games. Letter before action and go for the jugular, simple as that

Thanks very much. It is not quite clear cut on that front. I work on projects on a pay-as-you-go basis. A lot of that involves writing emails to suppliers and working through project destails with clients. It all takes time and I bill for that time transparently. Or put differently, I bill for any time spent working on a client's project whatever it involves. Sometimes it's CAD, sometimes, building models, testing and report writing. I have been working on this project for 18 months and all was going well. So seen in that light the long discussions with this client are not much different to other emails I have written and for which I billed.

 

[Newchodge]

So seen in that light the long discussions with this client are not much different to other emails I have written and for which I billed.

You know they are different or you would not have asked the question.

 

[obscure]

What I want to know is am I reasonably entitled now to bill him for this time as well?

No, you can't invoice them for time spent arguing with them. At least not unless you specifically offer arguing as part of your service in the T&C -

They didn't contract you to argue with them so you can't bill them for it. Otherwise everyone would be phoning their clients up and picking arguments with them so they can bill them. Chasing payment is part of running your business. Stop wasting your time trying to educate your client on how to run their business and focus on running yours. All you need to say is that "They contracted you to do work. X hours of that work has been done. If they with to cancel future work that is acceptable but under the law work already done needs to be paid for - you are sending them an invoice. If it isn't paid in a timely fashion you will take action to recover the money owed".

If they don't pay on time send a letter before action. If they still don't pay proceed to court action or contact a debt collector.

 

[Paul @ Outsprung]

I'd highly recommend anyone who who been in this situation to watch this presentation by Mike Monteiro who talks how he deals with clients not paying and the legal side of it all. Very funny and informative https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1

 

[The Byre]

I have a watertight case should it go to court. I have everything in writing and I can prove the work was done for him (many reports, designs, photos, timesheets etc).

Get your local solicitor to send a letter before action and follow that up with immediate action. No pussy-footing around!

In an attempt to get him to see reason I have spent about 15 hours over the last 6 weeks in very detailed length emails and trying to get him to have a meeting to go through everything but he refuses.

What I want to know is am I reasonably entitled now to bill him for this time as well?

Of course not and any attempt to so do, could result in a severe weakening of your case, should it go to court and be contested.

My game plan -such as it is- is to send an invoice for the 15 hours of email discussions (all recorded) but waive it if he pays the outstanding bills within 2 weeks. But I wanted to check on the likely legality of this before proceeding.

And the words 'game plan' are appropriate here - you are playing silly games and courts detest people who play silly games. They then very likely to look upon your case under a new light and examine the possibility of you playing silly games in your original commission. I personally would take a far more sympathetic view of any counter arguments brought by the defendant, if you are trying to charge for 15 hours of 'work' (i.e. time wasted, sending pointless emails!) which was not commissioned.

My question would be "Does this person make a habit of inflating his or her commissions in other ways?"

You are obliged to behave reasonably and if you show unreasonable behaviour in the collection of a debt, it is reasonable to expect similar behaviour in other matters as well.

 

[Gecko001]

....Er, thanks but I'm being calm as evidenced by the fact that I'm seeking advice here first....

I get the 15 hours arguing with this client now.

Thanks very much. It is not quite clear cut on that front. I work on projects on a pay-as-you-go basis. A lot of that involves writing emails to suppliers and working through project destails with clients. It all takes time and I bill for that time transparently. Or put differently, I bill for any time spent working on a client's project whatever it involves. Sometimes it's CAD, sometimes, building models, testing and report writing. I have been working on this project for 18 months and all was going well. So seen in that light the long discussions with this client are not much different to other emails I have written and for which I billed.

I see where you are coming from - sort of. I often work on a time basis as well.

How are you describing the work you do on your invoice? It is common to list what you have done in the hours that you are billing for. eg. 50 hours for accepting brief, preparing drawings, preparing report for xyz. etc. Even if you do not do that but just give number of hours, usually administration hours are not charged. Administration is considered an overhead that you include in you rate. The time you spen chasing up payment is administration.

If they contact you, and there are arguments over the details of the project i would have thought you could charge for that but it would probably we wise to remind them that you are still charging them for the time they spend arguing with you before the argument gets too long. Straight forward arguing over payment should not be charged for.

 

[Ian PES]

Thanks for the comments

Get your local solicitor to send a letter before action and follow that up with immediate action. No pussy-footing around!


Of course not and any attempt to so do, could result in a severe weakening of your case, should it go to court and be contested.


And the words 'game plan' are appropriate here - you are playing silly games and courts detest people who play silly games. They then very likely to look upon your case under a new light and examine the possibility of you playing silly games in your original commission. I personally would take a far more sympathetic view of any counter arguments brought by the defendant, if you are trying to charge for 15 hours of 'work' (i.e. time wasted, sending pointless emails!) which was not commissioned.

My question would be "Does this person make a habit of inflating his or her commissions in other ways?"

You are obliged to behave reasonably and if you show unreasonable behaviour in the collection of a debt, it is reasonable to expect similar behaviour in other matters as well.

Thanks but I'm not playing games or being unreasonable. What I have engaged in are very detailed communications going over many months of research and development.

(Do you get points on this forum for being patronising?)

 

[simon field]

Ok, great. Ignore the sound advice you've been given here and embark on playing games.

See what happens, then you'll know

 

[Ian PES]

I get the 15 hours arguing with this client now.


I see where you are coming from - sort of. I often work on a time basis as well.

How are you describing the work you do on your invoice? It is common to list what you have done in the hours that you are billing for. eg. 50 hours for accepting brief, preparing drawings, preparing report for xyz. etc. Even if you do not do that but just give number of hours, usually administration hours are not charged. Administration is considered an overhead that you include in you rate. The time you spen chasing up payment is administration.

If they contact you, and there are arguments over the details of the project i would have thought you could charge for that but it would probably we wise to remind them that you are still charging them for the time they spend arguing with you before the argument gets too long. Straight forward arguing over payment should not be charged for.

Thanks -no, I'm not billing for any admin time but time spent going through detailed project activities. My client will say something like: "you are being too slow" or "you haven't provided this service" and I have to go back to reports and designs and emails sent that demonstrate that he is wrong (which he is). He has done this before a couple of times (had an unreasonable meltdown) but always came round when I explained things. This time he won't listen which makes me think this is a cynical attempt to reduce his costs. For the first few weeks I was just trying to salvage the project and was not planning to bill for the time spent but now he has dug his heels in and I don't see why I shouldn't. It takes ages to explain technical details in this way and he has refused to all my pleas to have a meeting (indicative that he doesn't really want to resolve it -just wants to minimise his costs). As recently as a month ago he told me to continue when I asked if I should stop work...

 

[Ian PES]

Ok, great. Ignore the sound advice you've been given here and embark on playing games.

See what happens, then you'll know

I'm not ignoring any advice but maybe one or two UKBF BIg Shots need deflating a bit

 

[Ian PES]

Thanks again everyone for your help.

An update is my debt collecting co has emailed:

"....Yes there is no set guidelines about what you can and cannot claim for apart from legal fee’s which aren’t normally recoverable in a small claims claim as they may over exceed the limited and the purpose of the small claims track.

As long as you have invoiced for the amount due to you, you can add it to the claim if it remains unpaid.

If you have had to put more time in at your expense and it has cost you then by all means send another invoice and if it remains unpaid add it to the claim balance. You must however be able to explain what the amount your claiming is for and provide a breakdown.

If the amount is defended and a hearing is required the judge may or may not award these costs and will adjust the balance as appropriate.

Once your invoices become overdue please let me know and we can then proceed to issue a Letter Before Action with 7 days’ notice prior to a claim being commenced....."

 

[The Byre]

(Do you get points on this forum for being patronising?)

I was merely trying to show you how the court will view your charging for 15 hours of totally unsolicited work.

There is no more legal justification for adding 15 hours of work to your invoice, than for me to charge you for giving you my 30 cents worth here. You may have 'invoked' that advice, but you did not directly commission any work or research - and neither did your client!

Judging by what you have written here, you and only you decided to embark upon that 15 hours of additional work, in order to justify your fee. Time taken to justify your services and fees is not a commission for works.

But as the man says -

See what happens, then you'll know

Maybe a sympathetic judge will see things differently. But I doubt it somehow.

And if it is a patronising tone you seek, go to court, where just about everybody there has developed being patronising into an art form!

one or two UKBF BIg Shots need deflating a bit

Those working at Byre Towers seem to agree, as only yesterday somebody complained that a lighting fixture was crooked and that upset her feng shui when she looked up at the ceiling, whilst she was on her back on the office floor, doing her Pilates exercises.

 

[STDFR33]

Those working at Byre Towers seem to agree, as only yesterday somebody complained that a lighting fixture was crooked and that upset her feng shui when she looked up at the ceiling, whilst she was on her back on the office floor, doing her Pilates exercises.

I thought it was going to be doing something else for a second.

 

[The Byre]

Well, she did tell us last week that she "fell pregnant" over the holidays!

 

[Gecko001]

Thanks -no, I'm not billing for any admin time but time spent going through detailed project activities. My client will say something like: "you are being too slow" or "you haven't provided this service" and I have to go back to reports and designs and emails sent that demonstrate that he is wrong (which he is). He has done this before a couple of times (had an unreasonable meltdown) but always came round when I explained things. This time he won't listen which makes me think this is a cynical attempt to reduce his costs. For the first few weeks I was just trying to salvage the project and was not planning to bill for the time spent but now he has dug his heels in and I don't see why I shouldn't. It takes ages to explain technical details in this way and he has refused to all my pleas to have a meeting (indicative that he doesn't really want to resolve it -just wants to minimise his costs). As recently as a month ago he told me to continue when I asked if I should stop work...

When you mentioned that the client has dug his heels in and does not want to meet you, it is likely that he is thinking of moving on and letting you sue him.

Most clients, when they are having difficulties like you describe will usually do their own research as to how they stand. They might consult others in your field without telling them that you have already been engaged (for another consultant to take this project on when you have not been dismissed including being paid would be unprofessional but it does happen). They also might be getting legal/accountancy advice.

 

[Ian PES]

I was merely trying to show you how the court will view your charging for 15 hours of totally unsolicited work.

There is no more legal justification for adding 15 hours of work to your invoice, than for me to charge you for giving you my 30 cents worth here. You may have 'invoked' that advice, but you did not directly commission any work or research - and neither did your client!

Judging by what you have written here, you and only you decided to embark upon that 15 hours of additional work, in order to justify your fee. Time taken to justify your services and fees is not a commission for works.

But as the man says -

Maybe a sympathetic judge will see things differently. But I doubt it somehow.

And if it is a patronising tone you seek, go to court, where just about everybody there has developed being patronising into an art form!

Those working at Byre Towers seem to agree, as only yesterday somebody complained that a lighting fixture was crooked and that upset her feng shui when she looked up at the ceiling, whilst she was on her back on the office floor, doing her Pilates exercises.

...You do seem to make a lot of assumptions without quite knowing the details. The emails were not unsolicited they were a response to questiosn and statements by the client.

I hadn't made my mind up before coming here I wanted to hear from people with similar experiences mainly.

 

[STDFR33]

...You do seem to make a lot of assumptions without quite knowing the details. The emails were not unsolicited they were a response to questiosn and statements by the client.

I hadn't made my mind up before coming here I wanted to hear from people with similar experiences mainly.

It was your decision to commit so much time to credit control. They client won't pay, and there is no legal basis for them to pay (unless its in the contract).

In future, you should do staged invoicing so that invoices don't get to such value.

 

[Newchodge]

Well, she did tell us last week that she "fell pregnant" over the holidays!

There are a number of sayings about pregnancy that make me laugh. My favourite is "She got herself pregnant". Well, no, whatever actually happened, that, almost certainly, didn't!

 

[The Byre]

The emails were not unsolicited they were a response to questiosn and statements by the client.

Responding to questions about the invoice, does not constitute a commission of works or a contract.

Imagine you took your car to a workshop for a new clutch-plate and they charged you £1,200 and you queried that bill. The master mechanic then came out and explained that you needed a new flywheel bearing, clutch slave cylinder and other parts and the repair was difficult and complicated.

He went to great lengths to show you the defective parts and explain what it was that went wrong. As the conversation took half-an-hour, he added £50 to the bill.

Now do you get it?

 

[tony84]

Dont show your hand yet in offering a discount.
Invoice the client for what you are owed, give him 7 days and then send a letter before action (recorded delivery). Once another 7 days pass, file it with small claims.

I had something similar recently. I had to fill out the small claims forms which I was dreading but it is actually a piece of cake.

If you show any signs of weakness people will jump on it.

I was straight to the point on the LBA, it was ignored but then paid within 48 hours once the court papers hit his doorstep.

 

[obscure]

...You do seem to make a lot of assumptions without quite knowing the details. The emails were not unsolicited they were a response to questiosn and statements by the client.

You may not like how people are saying it but the fact is that what they are saying is correct.

The time spent trying to get paid/justifying charges is credit control work for your business. The cost of it is an expense you have had to incur because a client is refusing to pay money that they do owe or questioning how much is owed. It doesn't matter that the client asked you to justify the costs, the court will not view it as part of the work done under the original contract, they view it as admin work done for your business - it is no different than the X hours you invested in preparing presentations and having meeting in order to secure this client in the first place - those aren't billable hours either.

You stated in your OP that you have a caste iron case for the money owed under the contract and are confident you can prove that the work was done and thus money is owed. What you don't have however is the legal right to bill your client for time spent doing credit control (unless you have a clause in your contract that specifically makes them liable). Any invoice issued for that time will be legally unenforceable. Worse it will actually be a fraudulent attempt to collect money not owed.

If you were to include such an invoice as part of your presentation to a court any half decent lawyer acting for your clients would be quickly able to demonstrate that no such debt was owed and, in so doing, caste you as an unreliable witness, thus weakening your valid claims for payment that is legally owed.

Thanks again everyone for your help.

An update is my debt collecting co has emailed:

"....Yes there is no set guidelines about what you can and cannot claim for apart from legal fee’s which aren’t normally recoverable in a small claims claim as they may over exceed the limited and the purpose of the small claims track.

As long as you have invoiced for the amount due to you, you can add it to the claim if it remains unpaid.

If you have had to put more time in at your expense and it has cost you then by all means send another invoice and if it remains unpaid add it to the claim balance. You must however be able to explain what the amount your claiming is for and provide a breakdown.

If the amount is defended and a hearing is required the judge may or may not award these costs and will adjust the balance as appropriate.

Once your invoices become overdue please let me know and we can then proceed to issue a Letter Before Action with 7 days’ notice prior to a claim being commenced....."

Nothing in the above quote contradicts what you have been told in this thread.
Translation: You can bill for work that is legally contracted. If you do more work that is legally contracted you can add that later.

What it doesn't say is that you can bill for credit control work.

Conclusion
The advise given here has been pretty unanimous and it comes from people with years of business experience. If you decide not to heed the advise given here I would urge you to consult a lawyer before doing anything else.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

I hadn't made my mind up before coming here I wanted to hear from people with similar experiences mainly.

Here's a similar experience for you...

We completed works at a local school as of which amounted to £10,500 + VAT for roller shutters and additional security works...

Our normal process of payment = payment within 7-10 days for any invoices over the amount of £500 - this is something that we have in place for the local council, something of which they put in force due to being a small local business and they're offer to support us small local businesses.

2 weeks later still no payment, upon asking what the hold up was we were informed that the Head Teacher hadn't signed off the works therefore wasn't happy to spend that kind of money, yet it was the deputy head who has given us the go ahead and official order number...

a further 2 weeks later still no payment - our standard terms are 30 days from invoice...

gets to 6 weeks and we're on the phone informing them that payment must be made or we'll have no alternative but to take it further... as to which we're told the Head Teacher had now left, the Deputy had been given the nod and has signed the order off...

2 days later we receive monies in the bank and a letter of apology for the delay in payment from the new Head Teacher!

On another note: a good friend of mine bought a part built kit car from a garage who was building it down south... for £2500... after a further 16 weeks they've still not delivered but sent additional invoices equating to £190... upon asking what the invoice was for, he was told it was for a 45 minute conversation to America for a piston on the american engine that they knew nothing about!...

suffice to say, they were told to go swivel...



Point being, you can invoice as much as you want - whether or not you'll get payment is a completely different answer

 

[Ian PES]

It was your decision to commit so much time to credit control. They client won't pay, and there is no legal basis for them to pay (unless its in the contract).

In future, you should do staged invoicing so that invoices don't get to such value.

...The time was not spent on 'credit control' ,....it was spent arguing over technical details, with me responding directly to his questions and objections which is time consuming. Discussing the project details with a client is part of my job and I bill for it and this is not much different.

I do stage my invoices. I haven't worked for months and hit him with a massive bill: I work for 10 to 20 hours then send a bill for my time, my sub-contrators time and any project costs (at cost price) along with a detailed report and timesheets. We have been workng this way for over a year. The problem is really that the client is naive and ignorant (no disrespect intended). I could resolve the dispute easily in a meeting but he won't meet. So it has to be done by email and then he doesn't read them or understand them. So it is catch-22 : he accuses me of something and I attempt to answer then he accuses me of something elsse and i answer and then he accuses me of the first thig again and on and on....He is the one who has forced me to engage in this as I'd be very happy to resolve it face to face.

 

[Ian PES]

Here's a similar experience for you...

.....On another note: a good friend of mine bought a part built kit car from a garage who was building it down south... for £2500... after a further 16 weeks they've still not delivered but sent additional invoices equating to £190... upon asking what the invoice was for, he was told it was for a 45 minute conversation to America for a piston on the american engine that they knew nothing about!...

suffice to say, they were told to go swivel...



Point being, you can invoice as much as you want - whether or not you'll get payment is a completely different answer

Thanks -I do hear what everyone is saying and any advice is received with thanks. I don't mind being proved wrong or learning from my errors......(One or two people seem to be a bit full of themselves and one or two seem to think that their many years of business experience -I have 20+ btw- means they can make lots of assumptions). But anyway....The point is that I do a lot of internet reasearch, phone calls and emails and I bill for it. This includes any kind of discussion with the client if it involves technical details because that is part of the job. So that is normal for me and my clients understand and this makes it sightly different to the above cases (and most other cases I would say). I don't do any fixed-price work. I never say that will be £2500 (or whatever) and then add extra charges because I NEVER do fixed price work (except for patent searches I should say). I hope that you can see what I'm getting at here. So if say I have sent a report and the client reviews it and then queries something and I have to spend time clarifying (teaching effectively!) then I bill for it -it isn't credit control but technical discussions for the client's benefit. It has become a bit of a grey area now because it has got completely out of hand but again it is the client's fault not mine.

Anyway, I invoiced him for the time spent on it yesterday and gave him a deadline. If he pays the late bills by then I'll waive the recent time spent on this, if not I will fight for it in court.

 

[Gecko001]

...The problem is really that the client is naive and ignorant (no disrespect intended). I could resolve the dispute easily in a meeting but he won't meet. So it has to be done by email and then he doesn't read them or understand them. .

If you are in a consultancy business involved with anything technical it is quite common that client will not be familiar with the technical aspects of your job. It is up to you to explain what you are doing in layman's terms. That often means not going into much detail even though the details are quite complex and fascinating to many. Clients are often more interested in just the result and not on how you get to the result.

Also charging on a time basis requires a lot of trust on the client's side. More trust than if you quote a lump sum. It can also requires perhaps a client that is more knowledgeable about what you do than the average client.

 

[Ian PES]

If you are in a consultancy business involved with anything technical it is quite common that client will not be familiar with the technical aspects of your job. It is up to you to explain what you are doing in layman's terms. That often means not going into much detail even though the details are quite complex. Clients are often more interested in just the result and not on how you get to the result.

Also charging on a time basis requires a lot of trust on the client's side. More trust than if you quote a lump sum. It can also requires perhaps a client that is more knowledgeable about what you do than the average client.

......Thanks. I take a lot of effort to provide detailed and understandable reports with lots of pictures and I don't try and baffle with jargon. Part of the job is often helping non-technical people grapple with the complexities.

I used to offer fixed price work but I always ended up working for nothing due to problems encountered. About 4 years ago I had a project that had a problem and I spent 40+ hours sorting it out but could not bill for extra time and I decided-enough!

.....I agree about the trust and so I provided the detailed chronological reports and detailed to-the-minute timesheets (numbered activities) and it is all cross-rererenced. Also I really am scrupulously honest so I have no fear of being caught out. This particular client has been ok with this method for over a year but has convinced himself that somehow he is being ripped off. I can EASILY refuste this if would agree to meet me and my colleagues but he will not.

 

[fisicx]

......Thanks. I take a lot of effort to provide detailed and understandable reports with lots of pictures and I don't try and baffle with jargon.

People won't read all this stuff. And I suspect the client in your case only glanced at your explanatory emails. The only bit they might read is the cost and maybe the bit about what they get for their money. But they even get this wrong. They regard 'installation and configuration' as 'do everything for me in perpetuity'.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

......Thanks. I take a lot of effort to provide detailed and understandable reports with lots of pictures and I don't try and baffle with jargon. Part of the job is often helping non-technical people grapple with the complexities.

I used to offer fixed price work but I always ended up working for nothing due to problems encountered. About 4 years ago I had a project that had a problem and I spent 40+ hours sorting it out but could not bill for extra time and I decided-enough!

.....I agree about the trust and so I provided the detailed chronological reports and detailed to-the-minute timesheets (numbered activities) and it is all cross-rererenced. Also I really am scrupulously honest so I have no fear of being caught out. This particular client has been ok with this method for over a year but has convinced himself that somehow he is being ripped off. I can EASILY refuste this if would agree to meet me and my colleagues but he will not.

See @fisicx 's reply

If you use

• <-- these
• -<-- bullet points

you can put as much crap into a report as you want, but the above is all that they're interested in... they'll skim, see costs, see breakdowns read bullet points and then decide.

We provide reports all the time, H&S documentation - we've even stuck in some random crap about a site having no access via the space time continuum before now... we even capped and bolded the word SPACE and it was never mentioned!

 

[Gecko001]

[QUOTE="Ian PES, post: 2780853, member: 38723
.....I agree about the trust and so I provided the detailed chronological reports and detailed to-the-minute timesheets (numbered activities) and it is all cross-rererenced. Also I really am scrupulously honest so I have no fear of being caught out. This particular client has been ok with this method for over a year but has convinced himself that somehow he is being ripped off. I can EASILY refuste this if would agree to meet me and my colleagues but he will not.[/QUOTE]

When trust goes it takes a lot to get it back. The client has to begin to trust you again on his own terms. If he explicitly asked you to provide this detailed backup information that would help to get it back. If he did not explicitly ask you for this backup information, but you volunteered it, that is not going to help him regain trust as it is not on his own terms. He is the one paying the money and if he is going to regain trust he needs to regain the trust in a way that is important to him.

Often when we are working hard on a project, we do not pick up a client's indication of a loss of a confidence in us immediately or we do not give it the importance it needs at the time. In my view you need to go back and think of when the client began to lose some confidence in you. Was it any broken promises regarding deadlines? Was it over what you were charging? Or perhaps he was asking for something that was impossible to do and you did not clarify this to him at the time. Then he thought that you were continuing to work on his perpetual motion machine and was disappointed when you told him a month later that you could not do it. Was it when the client mentioned something he read or seen on TV regarding similar work or even one of your competitors? BTW mentioning competitors is more or less terminal?

 

[Ian PES]

See @fisicx 's reply

If you use

• <-- these
• -<-- bullet points

you can put as much crap into a report as you want, but the above is all that they're interested in... they'll skim, see costs, see breakdowns read bullet points and then decide.

We provide reports all the time, H&S documentation - we've even stuck in some random crap about a site having no access via the space time continuum before now... we even capped and bolded the word SPACE and it was never mentioned!

Yep, I bullet point all the main points in a summary.

 

[Ian PES]

[QUOTE="Ian PES, post: 2780853, member: 38723
.....I agree about the trust and so I provided the detailed chronological reports and detailed to-the-minute timesheets (numbered activities) and it is all cross-rererenced. Also I really am scrupulously honest so I have no fear of being caught out. This particular client has been ok with this method for over a year but has convinced himself that somehow he is being ripped off. I can EASILY refuste this if would agree to meet me and my colleagues but he will not.

When trust goes it takes a lot to get it back. The client has to begin to trust you again on his own terms. If he explicitly asked you to provide this detailed backup information that would help to get it back. If he did not explicitly ask you for this backup information, but you volunteered it, that is not going to help him regain trust as it is not on his own terms. He is the one paying the money and if he is going to regain trust he needs to regain the trust in a way that is important to him.

Often when we are working hard on a project, we do not pick up a client's indication of a loss of a confidence in us immediately or we do not give it the importance it needs at the time. In my view you need to go back and think of when the client began to lose some confidence in you. Was it any broken promises regarding deadlines? Was it over what you were charging? Or perhaps he was asking for something that was impossible to do and you did not clarify this to him at the time. Then he thought that you were continuing to work on his perpetual motion machine and was disappointed when you told him a month later that you could not do it. Was it when the client mentioned something he read or seen on TV regarding similar work or even one of your competitors? BTW mentioning competitors is more or less terminal?[/QUOTE]

Thanks very much. ....I never give a deadline with R&D work ...but in general he has never made anything but vague complaints. I have asked so many time for him to specify what he isn't please with and he will not. It's just a vague belief that it has taken too long and cost too much, but this is really down to his own preconceptions. I have tried at every point to minimise his costs but this has backfired.

.....

 

[fisicx]

Yep, I bullet point all the main points in a summary.

Still won't get read. I write all sort of documents for various companies and add easter eggs to see if anybody reads the things. Nobody ever finds and reports them - even the people paid to chack and approve.

I'd put money on your client never reading your email, reports and updates. All he knows is he doesn't need the product so he's not going to pay. Nothing has been delivered so as far as he is concerned there is nothing to pay.