Client Intrusion in Website Design

[bdw]

Do any of you web designers have problems with clients insisting on leading the design process?

I have had several who ask for stuff to be included that makes their sites look amateurish and cheap. Some of them send me "logos" that they have created themselves in MS Word, etc. They insist on using them on their sites because they think they have done a good job and they cannot see past this.

Others want to change the layout despite me having creating tried and trusted structures. I have done a couple of sites for people that I would not even include in my portfolio because they look really bad after their interference. I understand that they are paying my wages so I often just do as they ask. Also they often just don't get the process of SEO and for example, when I put their keywords in the headings and move their text around for SEO purposes they want these changed.

How do you guys deal with this. Is it a problem?

(I have noticed that it is often the self employed and one man operations who do this. Larger companies are more likely to give me free reign.)

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[Posilan]

I think this sums it all up pretty well

Steve

 

[bdw]

Yes, I have seen that one before and it is so true.

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[IGM_Computers]

OMG i get this everyday. Don't take it personally though it's just that some people want to feel they've had an input in their website.

I had to be quite firm with a client recently who wanted something quite unspeakable on their homepage. I explained to her that we simply haven't used visitor counters since 1997!

 

[mit74]

We've been here before on the forums. Many designers saying the same thing followed by many clients saying how it's their right to be fussy as they're paying and they wouldn't employ any designer who talked about them like that etc. Many are overly fussy on the little details which aren't important like moving an image 2 pixels to the left while some want a website that 'hits you' and put their personal taste before good design based on their business specs.

Personally I just go with it, at the end of the day you can't say no. Some clients are too fussy while the next can be the complete opposite and it takes you less time to complete than normal so it's swings and roundabouts. As long as you price somewhere inbetween you're okay.

I did once have a client whose website was not sales but more referencing for products and existing customers and login to view service times etc.
I designed what was at the time my favourite ever design. Beatifully simplistic, easy to use and with well designed graphics and interface. For the specifications it was perfect.
When I showed it to the client their first words 'it doesn't really stand out much... I mean it doesn't really have any oopmh'. I told him it wasn't suppose to. He then showed me a website that was at least 10 years old with dated design and style of banners etc. I told him I would be designing a website that looks dated already but he just said 'to me that's what stands out though'... so in the end I designed a dated looking website for him... and made sure I didn't include it on my portfolio

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Client intrusion in anything graphic.................

As a photographer I once put together a proposal with layouts which involved an architect and room stylist. The quotation was based on what was possible within the budget.

( The client made house extensions, what we now call conservatories, and the shoot involved building 6 outsides of houses in a film studio and then building the conservatories to show before and after views.)

Just before the shoot I had a meeting with the client. Also there were the MD, the advertising manager, the sales manager, the northern sales manager, the southern sales manager, the Ireland sales manager and the European sales manager, the ad agency account execs and art director, the finance director and a few others. Everyone made changes to the layouts I presented. I made a few notes. At the end I looked across at the MD about 25 feet down the other end of the boardroom table and asked if he approved the doubling of the budget that all these changes would cause. He told me to shoot the layouts without changes. Quite what it had cost to get all those execs in one room for their contributions I never knew.

 

[Websitehandyman]

Their site their money.

I make it clear that once agreed and deposit is made and work that is extra is also extra cost with a minimum additional cost of £50.

That seems to shut most of them up.

 

[gdswebdesign]

Try showing them the websites of their competition. Part of your remit is to educate and guide them, as a designer you should be able to justify all your decisions.

Got a duff logo to work with - say you like the idea very much but unfortunately it's not quite right for the website, offer to adjust it. If not make it as small as you can get away with

If they insist on carry a bad idea right through don't put your name to it or put it in your portfolio.

Gary.

 

[cmcp]

So what are they paying you for? If as a professional you can't make the right decisions and have them trust your experience and logic behind it, sack them as a client they're a waste of time. That said, the client should be well absored in the process sometimes. Just keep the boundaries clear.

 

[mit74]

So what are they paying you for? If as a professional you can't make the right decisions and have them trust your experience and logic behind it, sack them as a client they're a waste of time. That said, the client should be well absored in the process sometimes. Just keep the boundaries clear.

many clients employ you not as a designer and artist but a 'do as I say graphical guy' who will make something exactly as they imagined a website should look. I think you have to accept that sometimes. We all know business types can be very strong minded sometimes and their way is the right way.

 

[cmcp]

Then that's not intrusion, if you both know that up front no one can complain. That comes down to the decision who you work with, and in that case I'd place full blame with the designer with no right to complain.

 

[bdw]

Also there were the MD, the advertising manager, the sales manager, the northern sales manager, the southern sales manager, the Ireland sales manager and the European sales manager, the ad agency account execs and art director, the finance director and a few others.

I get this now and again with larger companies. On one occasion a company with three partners asked me to do their website. I was getting emails from all three and it became clear that they were not discussing things amongst themselves. they were all contacting me directly with their own ideas.

It came to a head when one of them asked me to change something that I had already changed for one of the others. At this point I put the foot down and told them that we could only continue if all the instructions came through a single nominated person.

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[bdw]

sack them as a client they're a waste of time.

Not a good business model I fear.

many clients employ you not as a designer and artist but a 'do as I say graphical guy' who will make something exactly as they imagined a website should look. I think you have to accept that sometimes. We all know business types can be very strong minded sometimes and their way is the right way.

Yes, sometimes we have to bite the bullet.

Then that's not intrusion, if you both know that up front no one can complain. That comes down to the decision who you work with, and in that case I'd place full blame with the designer with no right to complain.

The problem is we don't know it up front. I see you haven't ever been there.

What happens with website design for small companies is that they don't really know what they want. It's generally the first time they have had to get involved in anything creative. Many of them listen to what you are saying and go along with it all. No problems are evident until they see the end result. This is what "inspires" them to request changes. It is only then they start to get creative. I am sure other website design people in here will know what I am saying.

I am just completing a job for a client who sent me a mock up with a logo that he had made up. It was very rough and I assumed it to be a concept or idea so I refined it and made it look more 2012. When it was complete he sent me a tif of the original and asked me to replace what I had done with this. I just gritted my teeth and did what he wanted.

I had also spent about a day developing the layout and masthead for this site. When he saw this he asked for the layout to be changed and the images and graphics I had used to be removed. I more or less had to go back to square one.

Sacking the client at this stage means having to write off sometimes three or four days of work. Realistically few of us can afford to operate a business model like that.


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[Websitehandyman]

I get this now and again with larger companies. On one occasion a company with three partners asked me to do their website. I was getting emails from all three and it became clear that they were not discussing things amongst themselves. they were all contacting me directly with their own ideas.

It came to a head when one of them asked me to change something that I had already changed for one of the others. At this point I put the foot down and told them that we could only continue if all the instructions came through a single nominated person.

.

Reminds me of a time I did an Intranet for a large company. Their PR director and marketing director wanted most input but all their IT dept had an opinion as well. It wasn't a great problem but I had to laugh when we setup a demo in the boardroom and the PR director rushed in to "have a go" he sat right down, picked up the mouse and moved it across the screen not the desk - I kid you not !

 

[bdw]

^ Lol! ^

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[cmcp]

Not a good business model I fear.

If you take on every job without scoping out the job and the client, that's a worse business model.

The problem is we don't know it up front. I see you haven't ever been there.

I've never let it get to that stage. The minute something oversteps the line I deal with it there and then, be it a friendly call, preferably in a meeting, whatever; I don't let the client dictate something they know nothing about. It doesn't make any sense.

I just gritted my teeth and did what he wanted.

And that, is your point of failure. At that moment, you became a puppet on a string. He might as well of been holding your hand with the pen sketching it out. don't let it get to that stage, learn to assert your authority on the project.

Sacking the client at this stage means having to write off sometimes three or four days of work. Realistically few of us can afford to operate a business model like that.

This goes back to having control of the project. Or, if you're not project managing it having control over your area of expertise. I think that is the clear message I'd take from all this if I were you

 

[cmcp]

At this point I put the foot down and told them that we could only continue if all the instructions came through a single nominated person.

That's what you have to work on making clear at your kick off meetings. The first time it leaks out of that process, shut it down.

 

[bdw]

hat's what you have to work on making clear at your kick off meetings. The first time it leaks out of that process, shut it down.

Are you a web designer cmcp?

Scoping jobs, scoping clients, points of failure, project management, puppets on strings, this is all very well. If I was to start talking to them like that they would just go elsewhere. We all know what we should do but welcome to the real world.

We are talking about small websites typically costing £500 here. There is no way that you can create formal business processes and have multiple meetings with clients for a 500 quid job. There is no way that many of my clients would even accept this.

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[360interactive]

We are talking about small websites typically costing £500 here.

And there lies the problem. When supplying services at the lower end of the market, you often deal with smaller, one man band companies/sole traders who will often be harder to deal with on things such as design issues. They won't have good logos, they won't have any knowledge of design processes etc.

The simple answer to the problem would be to only offer higher costing work to bigger companies who have a good idea about design processes, even then you will, at times, get the odd frustrating client.

 

[MH1]

As mentioned this is down to poor control, you get the same in all industries, and you need to find a way to remain in control.

 

[bdw]

Are you a website designer MH1?

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[360interactive]

You can control a client all you want, it's not going to stop them wanting you to do something that you may not like. In their eyes, they're the paying customer therefor you need to take into account their views, no matter how ill informed they are.

Do you just turn to them and say 'i'm sorry, that would completely ruin the design, therefor i'm not doing it'. Of course not, you try and persuade them to go down the route you've specified but that isn't always going to fly. Sometimes you just have to bite your lip and go with what your customer wants.

 

[cmcp]

Are you a web designer cmcp?

Front end developer, I've worked freelance (contract, self employed and own company) and although I'm employed now I deal with expectations every day.

Scoping jobs, scoping clients, points of failure, project management, puppets on strings, this is all very well. If I was to start talking to them like that they would just go elsewhere. We all know what we should do but welcome to the real world.

I'm not suggesting talking to them like that, I'm suggesting you run your business like that.

We are talking about small websites typically costing £500 here. There is no way that you can create formal business processes and have multiple meetings with clients for a 500 quid job. There is no way that many of my clients would even accept this.

No matter how informal you're business will have process. It's up to you to stick to it. When you do, all these inconsistencies will take care of themselves.

 

[iArtist]

Often a client has an idea but they aren't able to visualise it, hence they sometimes need to see their ideas realised in order to accept their ideas won't work. This is rare though and often if you explain why their ideas won't work as well as offering an alternative they go along with it. This is all part and parcel of keeping the client happy and YES we do have to listen to them, like it or not. Our aesthetic vision may not match theirs.

I've had website designers criticise my site, so I pop along to theirs and if their sites are utterly crap their opinion becomes instantly invalid.

But then I wouldn't hire those to design me a site. I'd like to think I'd trust a designer I selected BUT I would expect them to listen to my requirements for the site.

 

[bdw]

I'd like to think I'd trust a designer I selected BUT I would expect them to listen to my requirements for the site.

I never fail to listen to a client's requirements. I am not still doing it ten years after I started by failing to listen to what people want. The problems is that on occasion what they want is not what they need. They just do not know that.

The original question was actually directed to my fellow website designers who are more likely to understand what I mean. We are in one of the few industries where it is not uncommon for people to "think" they know better than the people they are employing. I mean if you hire an electrician to rewire your house you would hardly tell him how you want done, would you?

Any more views from web designers?

.

 

[JDX_John]

I think this sums it all up pretty well

Steve

That's great, but not as good as: www.ClientsFromHell.net

 

[NuBlue]

I suppose it comes down too:

1) Qualifying clients. Most clients who are going to be difficult to manage show certain 'red flags' such as having fallen out with the previous web designer/developer or being extremely vague about requirements. If you simply turn these clients down at the door will dramatically reduce client problems.

2) planning, planning and planning. Make a specification, sitemap and wireframe and get them signed off in writing before anything starts. I think the problem here is that most web designers dont like this part and spend hours on it, instead of days and as a result they provide something which is very open to interpretation and results in changes down the line.

3) The client should always be advised best practice. It is entirely irrelevant whether they like hearing it. If after being told what they want to do is not a good idea and they still want to do it, it should be charged as an extra if it is not on the original plan.

I think if you follow all those things you will see a reduction in ill advised client changes. But you can never stamp them out in any profession, and it is just a part of the job!

 

[MH1]

Are you a website designer MH1?

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Not personally, but I have worked in design in several industries, where the same problems occur. I understand the frustration and there will always be the odd client who is very awkward, but it still come down to control.

Many years ago a client asked myself to do something totally wrong regarding building work, which in design terms would have put his family at risk and I refused for that very reason and consequently lost the job.

No one wins everything, fact of life.

 

[FreelanceSoftwareDeveloper]

Only once have I started to discuss a job with someone only to have to then make an excuse to get out of it knowing it was going to be a complete nightmare client and to be fair a waste of his money. That was a Word document webpage design and he wanted it "exactly like this".

I'm not a designer though and don't "sell websites" very often, I much prefer working sub-contract for a decent designer or agency.

I agree it's the lowest budget clients that are the most work, I think it's because they think they know what is involved and they are always trying to get a few extras thrown in as work progresses. My favourite comment when I used to do coding for one guy was "it will only take you 5 minutes", which meant can you just add this in for no extra.

 

[iArtist]

I never fail to listen to a client's requirements. I am not still doing it ten years after I started by failing to listen to what people want. The problems is that on occasion what they want is not what they need. They just do not know that.

The original question was actually directed to my fellow website designers who are more likely to understand what I mean. We are in one of the few industries where it is not uncommon for people to "think" they know better than the people they are employing. I mean if you hire an electrician to rewire your house you would hardly tell him how you want done, would you?

Any more views from web designers?

.

This situation applies to ALL those in design industry it is by no means exclusive to website designers which is why others have replied to your post. I would have thought that obvious, but hey ho.

It also applies to hair dressers, builders, opticians and every single person who is in a position of 'knowing what works' versus a client who has an aesthetic or idea they want to see realised.

I had the same problem selling specs with people wanting frames unsuited to their lenses or their face shape, the same in hairdressing with people wanting styles that didn't suit or couldn't be acheived with their hair type...the list goes on and NO they don't always accept the professional advice given because when it comes to individual taste and style they want what they want!

IT IS VERY COMMON in many industries.

Sorry BDW but DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[bdw]

This situation applies to ALL those in design industry it is by no means exclusive to website designers which is why others have replied to your post.

Perhaps, but I only asked for web designers opinions.

(and it was my question after all)

.

 

[iArtist]

Perhaps, but I only asked for web designers opinions.

(and it was my question after all)

.

It's an open forum and anyone can reply whether you like it or not

The fact is the question applies to many and many will reply and their opinions are equally valid. The fact you choose to dismiss them is neither here nor there. Others reading the thread who also have an interest in the subject may value them, so......let the opinions commence!

Meanwhile if you feel your client is pushing for the impossible you can always refuse the job.

 

[woodss]

I think as long as you can justify your design decisions then most clients tend to listen - if you just go in saying "oh no that looks crap" then they tend to get defensive, and whip a little harder

 

[Esk247]

It also comes down to the client having an image in their head before the meeting even starts.

Big organisations have lots of people, lots of ideas, they're willing to work with you over a longer period of time (in general) in order to sculpt a web project and shape it.

With the lower end of the market, £500, you're talking of running 1 or 2 web jobs a week and this means you have to be fast, efficient and have some idea of where things are going to go, you cannot start with a totally blank canvas.

Unfortunately, you hit the problem of 'two different minds'. The client will have an image of a floral website, with pixies and jumping kangaroos and lovely videos with animations and happy, smiley people. You have the image of a nice simple website, £400 on the nose. It will do the trick, telephone number top right, shaded background, basic menu structure and layout, simple web copy and format, bish bash bosh. 6 days work no problem.

How you come to an agreement? I don't have a clue, thats why i gave up with the budget web design and moved in to retail. Working with someone who has completely different ideas to you for longer than a few days can drive you up the wall, especially when they know you're working for them and they can impose their ideas on you with some kind of mind melt.

For a designer it is deathly. All your ideas are squashed in to a little box and filed under 'No Longer Required'.

 

[bdw]

How you come to an agreement? I don't have a clue, thats why i gave up with the budget web design and moved in to retail.

This is not a major problem for me and certainly not a career changing one. I like what I am doing. It suits me and I have no interest in getting involved with larger projects because I am comfortable with what I am doing.

I just have the odd client who gives me problems and I wondered how some of my fellow designers dealt with.

Meanwhile if you feel your client is pushing for the impossible you can always refuse the job.

The job has more or less been done in most of these cases, as I explained earlier.

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[iArtist]

The job has more or less been done in most of these cases, as I explained earlier.

.

Then you need clearer terms which outline how many tweaks you're prepared to do for the fee and the hourly rate you charge when those tweaks have been used up.

 

[bdw]

There hundreds of people on the net who have copied my terms and are using them. They are amongst the most detailed around.

 

[mit74]

There hundreds of people on the net who have copied my terms and are using them. They are amongst the most detailed around.

I was looking for a better template...can i copy them?

 

[bdw]

Yes, you are very welcome - if you credit me and give me a link back.

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[iArtist]

There hundreds of people on the net who have copied my terms and are using them. They are amongst the most detailed around.

If your terms are clear and concise (detailed is not the same) and they cover such matters as you are concerned about then you can easily quote them to clients you feel are asking 'too much'.

End of problem

Meanwhile your terms are not visible on your site, one has to request a copy via email. How many people I wonder therfore ever even see your terms before contracting your services.