Cancelling a digital service, am I entitled to a refund?

[SamLH]

Hi.

I found an international company to host my websites and payed for a month subscription, then realised after 4 days the host didn't have all the features I needed so I asked if I could cancel for refund.

They said as per their terms I could cancel but only get account credit not refund.

I said as its a digital service I am allowed to cancel within 14 days for a refund. As the service started immediately you are allowed to refuse refund for the amount of resources I have used so far which is 4 days out of a month. Then said they would need to refund the remaining unused days.

Also this was over a week ago, they still haven't cancelled yet because I didn't cancel through their cancellation form. Again, I don't think they can do this?

Can anybody clarify what my rights are?

Thanks for any help

 

[ethical PR]

14 day cooling off period is a consumer right.

 

[SamLH]

14 day cooling off period is a consumer right.

So does that apply in this situation? Their company is registered in USA. Thy have said they had allocated me 30 days of service so don't need to refund what hasn't been used as they had already provisioned what was ordered.

 

[fisicx]

Was this hosting for a business? If so you don't get a cooling off period.

Have you followed their procedures? Did the T&C say you would get a refund or an account credit? If they say you agreed to 30 days of service then they are not obliged to get anything back.

 

[cjd]

Whatever rights you have are in the T&Cs you agreed to.

 

[SamLH]

Whatever rights you have are in the T&Cs you agreed to.

T&Cs dont take away consumer rights which is what I am asking about.

 

[SamLH]

Was this hosting for a business? If so you don't get a cooling off period.

Have you followed their procedures? Did the T&C say you would get a refund or an account credit? If they say you agreed to 30 days of service then they are not obliged to get anything back.

Hi, thank you for replying. Why do the cooling off period not apply to business? Their T&C say payments are none refundable, they do not say anything about credit.

Services will be outlined on the order form, I have checked the order form and all it says are the server specs and monthly price. No other terms.

 

[fisicx]

Hi, thank you for replying. Why do the cooling off period not apply to business?

Because a business is not a consumer. B2C =/= B2B

Their T&C say payments are none refundable, they do not say anything about credit.

If that's the case you ain't gonna get your money back.

I bet you agreed to their T&C when you completed the contract. They always have a checkbox and a link to the document.

 

[cjd]

T&Cs dont take away consumer rights which is what I am asking about.

1. Consumer right apply to consumers not businesses
2. You're also dealing with a Non-EU company, presumably providing services from the USA. Their law is likely to apply not ours.

 

[SamLH]

Because a business is not a consumer. B2C =/= B2B

If that's the case you ain't gonna get your money back.

I bet you agreed to their T&C when you completed the contract. They always have a checkbox and a link to the document.

Yes I agreed to their terms when placing the order.
When I placed the order I selected the checkbox which said I wasn't a company as I haven't started trading yet. Doesn't this mean I still get consumer rights?

 

[fisicx]

Doesn't matter if you haven't started trading - you are a business so it probably means B2C doesn't apply.

If their T&C say you don't get a refund then it means you don't get a refund. It can't be that much you are losing. A months hosting can't be more than a few pounds.

 

[obscure]

No, the fact that you had not started trading doesn't matter. Your intention was/is to trade and the website was/is for your business. Therefore it is business use and the contract is B2B.

The law assumes that as a business owner you have taken the necessary steps to learn what you need to know to run your business, understand your responsibilities and obligations; and make decisions/enter into a contract (as a business).

You are responsible for making sure the goods and services you purchase suit the needs of the business before entering into a contract. Once you do so it is binding based on the terms and conditions you chose to agree to. The only way you could get out would be if they had breached the contract, such as by deliberately misselling (you would need to prove that you asked about a feature and they lied).

 

[SamLH]

Doesn't matter if you haven't started trading - you are a business so it probably means B2C doesn't apply.

If their T&C say you don't get a refund then it means you don't get a refund. It can't be that much you are losing. A months hosting can't be more than a few pounds.

Yeh, thats why it annoys me that much that the company are that bothered about giving a refund.
I asked them immediately before ordering what features their hosting had and nobody could answer, I thought being a big hosting company that if I tell them straight after ordering that it didn't have what I needed they would cancel and refund straight away but they made a big deal out of it.

The company has probably spent more in customer service and replying to my emails than what the refund would have been

 

[ethical PR]

T&Cs dont take away consumer rights which is what I am asking about.

As already advised you are not a consumer, you are a business. So this is a business to business transaction. Read your contract to understand your rights.

 

[Newchodge]

Yeh, thats why it annoys me that much that the company are that bothered about giving a refund.
I asked them immediately before ordering what features their hosting had and nobody could answer, I thought being a big hosting company that if I tell them straight after ordering that it didn't have what I needed they would cancel and refund straight away but they made a big deal out of it.

The company has probably spent more in customer service and replying to my emails than what the refund would have been

So have you!

See this as an important lesson, cheaply learnt. As a business never, ever agree to a contract without reading every part of the contract and being certain it provides what you need. Do not rely on anything said by a salesperson or other member of the supplier's staff. In particular read the cancellation section carefully and make a diary note of any dates by which you have to cancel before you get auto-renewed.

After that, read the contract again. Then sleep on it.

 

[ethical PR]

Yeh, thats why it annoys me that much that the company are that bothered about giving a refund.
I asked them immediately before ordering what features their hosting had and nobody could answer, I thought being a big hosting company that if I tell them straight after ordering that it didn't have what I needed they would cancel and refund straight away but they made a big deal out of it.

The company has probably spent more in customer service and replying to my emails than what the refund would have been

If you couldn't confirm if it had the features you wanted then you shouldn't have put in the order. It's irrelevant what size of business they are.

This is your error not theirs.

 

[Mr D]

Yeh, thats why it annoys me that much that the company are that bothered about giving a refund.
I asked them immediately before ordering what features their hosting had and nobody could answer, I thought being a big hosting company that if I tell them straight after ordering that it didn't have what I needed they would cancel and refund straight away but they made a big deal out of it.

The company has probably spent more in customer service and replying to my emails than what the refund would have been

They are sticking to the contract that you agreed at the time. Both parties agreed on the terms at the time.
You want them to refund your money - why are you so bothered about getting a refund?

Next time both research that the company has what you need before agreeing a contract and read the contract before agreeing to it.

 

[Ken Moorhouse]

If you paid by credit card you could always try getting a refund by explaining things to the Credit Card company. Sometimes there are nuggets in the T's&C's which can cause the CC company to side with you.

 

[fisicx]

I thought being a big hosting company that if I tell them straight after ordering that it didn't have what I needed they would cancel and refund straight away but they made a big deal out of it.

They haven't made a big deal out of it. You are the one who made the mistake not them. ext time do your research and read the contract.

As an aside, why choose a US hosting company when there are plenty of local providers?

 

[SamLH]

If you couldn't confirm if it had the features you wanted then you shouldn't have put in the order. It's irrelevant what size of business they are.

This is your error not theirs.

Didn't ask who's error it was.

If you paid by credit card you could always try getting a refund by explaining things to the Credit Card company.

Thanks for taking the time to not copy other people and say something helpful.

Yeah I've explained to my bank, but I wanted to know what my rights were and why this company wouldn't just refund.

Spend 3 years at uni learning about what I should do for a customer but don't get told once that in UK law a business isn't classed as a consumer. We even get taught that a business is a consumer of other businesses products/services.

 

[SamLH]

They haven't made a big deal out of it. You are the one who made the mistake not them. ext time do your research and read the contract.

As an aside, why choose a US hosting company when there are plenty of local providers?

Yeah, I did make a mistake. I thought a big company would be reputable and care about customers, not scrounge for every little pound. Whats your point?

It didn't say their address until after I contacted them.

 

[fisicx]

I thought a big company would be reputable and care about customers, not scrounge for every little pound.

They aren't scrounging. They have allocated webspace on a server, installed a control panel, set up your login, an email server and other services. All this costs money and uses resources no longer available for someone else. What they aren't doing is giving your money back but they have offered an account credit as agreed in the T&C demonstrating they do care about customers

 

[SamLH]

They aren't scrounging. They have allocated webspace on a server, installed a control panel, set up your login, an email server and other services. All this costs money and uses resources no longer available for someone else. What they aren't doing is giving your money back but they have offered an account credit as agreed in the T&C demonstrating they do care about customers

They didn't set that up, there was no control panel, email server, etc., they allocated a section of a server which I could upload files to. This was set up automatically because the details we're sent via an automated email when I made payment. Which is back to my original point, if that was resources which they then couldn't sell they could have just charged me for the days I had it in use. Which is back to a point similar to what you made earlier, they didn't say in their terms I was signing up to a 30 day period or a 4 week period or whatever, they just stated how much it was for a month and I paid for the month in advance, it did not state I was entering a monthly contract.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Didn't ask who's error it was.



Thanks for taking the time to not copy other people and say something helpful.

Yeah I've explained to my bank, but I wanted to know what my rights were and why this company wouldn't just refund.

Spend 3 years at uni learning about what I should do for a customer but don't get told once that in UK law a business isn't classed as a consumer. We even get taught that a business is a consumer of other businesses products/services.

I think next time you need to either pick a better University or ask better questions to your tutor

Business contracts between business to business are done under the impression that if you make a contract you are clever enough to know whet you are signing and therefore do not need any hand holding

On the other hand consumers who are not a business themselves have the help of consumer law to assist them from the sharks that swim around the murky waters often in the internet but not always , probably the strongest consumer law is that items must be fit for purpose and your distant buying protection in the consumer regs

The consumer regs are both UK and EU wide at present

You made a contract with a company oversea's who work to their own countries regulations and their own t&c which in this case means no refund
Just accept you cocked up and have learnt a very low cost lesson that will be of great benefit in the future

 

[SamLewis]

I think next time you need to either pick a better University or ask better questions to your tutor

Business contracts between business to business are done under the impression that if you make a contract you are clever enough to know whet you are signing and therefore do not need any hand holding

On the other hand consumers who are not a business themselves have the help of consumer law to assist them from the sharks that swim around the murky waters often in the internet but not always , probably the strongest consumer law is that items must be fit for purpose and your distant buying protection in the consumer regs

The consumer regs are both UK and EU wide at present

You made a contract with a company oversea's who work to their own countries regulations and their own t&c which in this case means no refund
Just accept you cocked up and have learnt a very low cost lesson that will be of great benefit in the future

Yes I cocked up. Youre the winner of the internet. Youve made your family so proud.
I didnt say they are at fault, and I am right. I asked what my rights are. But nvm. Youre the winner.

 

[Mr D]

Didn't ask who's error it was.



Thanks for taking the time to not copy other people and say something helpful.

Yeah I've explained to my bank, but I wanted to know what my rights were and why this company wouldn't just refund.

Spend 3 years at uni learning about what I should do for a customer but don't get told once that in UK law a business isn't classed as a consumer. We even get taught that a business is a consumer of other businesses products/services.

Your tutors would have been better pointing out that consumers (ie the public) are treated like children that have to be protected from businesses while business to business is dealt with like adults. You don't get anything like the same protection and the contract counts far more.
You are presumed as a business to be adult enough to read and understand what you are agreeing to.
Or can get advice from qualified people to explain the contract before signing.

 

[fisicx]

I didnt say they are at fault, and I am right. I asked what my rights are.

And you have been told. You have none.

 

[Newchodge]

Yes I cocked up. Youre the winner of the internet. Youve made your family so proud.
I didnt say they are at fault, and I am right. I asked what my rights are. But nvm. Youre the winner.

The other lesson to be learnt is to try to act like a grown up when seeking advice on a business forum.

 

[obscure]

If you paid by credit card you could always try getting a refund by explaining things to the Credit Card company. Sometimes there are nuggets in the T's&C's which can cause the CC company to side with you.

The OP would need to be extremely careful about this.

I doubt that the credit card company are going to invest much time in looking for loopholes on the OPs behalf and as already discussed (without a loophole) he has no legal grounds for a charge back. As such, instigating one would constitute non-payment under the contract which would put the OP in breach and could result in them suing him.

 

[Ken Moorhouse]

Didn't ask who's error it was.



Thanks for taking the time to not copy other people and say something helpful.

Yeah I've explained to my bank, but I wanted to know what my rights were and why this company wouldn't just refund.

Spend 3 years at uni learning about what I should do for a customer but don't get told once that in UK law a business isn't classed as a consumer. We even get taught that a business is a consumer of other businesses products/services.

I'm sure I've signed Consumer Protection Agreements in the past (or whatever they were called - they certainly identified me as a consumer), with companies such as Thomson and Yell - for advertising in these two cases... which is definitely for business and not for consumers.

Let me reiterate: Look at the T's&C's of the service you've taken out. I'm not a lawyer, yet I have seen some pretty poorly drafted T's&C's, from big companies too. I've only reclaimed money via CC refunds a handful of times over the years but always with good reasons to, (ironically one I failed to get that sticks in my mind was with Marks & Spencer... as a consumer).

Your post reminded me in particular about a bad experience with a US company that offered Stock Photos for Websites. They had exactly the kind of images I wanted, at reasonable price. I signed up, then found that everything was on a timer: choose your images now, you have $x credit, all these photos that I had put in my basket were going up in price by the second! And the service worked by taking further money from your CC when you were close to zero on your balance. Though I had effectively agreed to this by giving my credit card details, there was a big chasm in understanding between what I saw prior to signing up, and what the reality was as soon as I pressed that "I Agree" button. I complained immediately to them and luckily obtained a full refund, but it could have been expensive if they used delaying tactics when complaining.

(I think UKBF members were entitled to feel a bit grumpy today because of last night's result).

 

[Ken Moorhouse]

The OP would need to be extremely careful about this.

I doubt that the credit card company are going to invest much time in looking for loopholes on the OPs behalf and as already discussed (without a loophole) he has no legal grounds for a charge back. As such, instigating one would constitute non-payment under the contract which would put the OP in breach and could result in them suing him.

I instigated a charge-back once, then retracted it because, having skimmed through the supplier's T's&C's I could see that though I was right in a pragmatic kind of way, I was in the wrong as far as the legalese was concerned.

The funny thing was that the CC company chased me to ask why I'd not returned the charge-back forms. I told them that I didn't have a leg to stand on, to which they replied "well have a think about it, we'll leave the case open."

Re-reading the supplier's T's&C's there was a restrictive clause that they had put in there, lord knows why, restrictive from their point of view, which I highlighted, explained why this clause did not apply in my particular case, sent it to the bank who immediately reimbursed me.

To use that clause to my benefit might not sound ethical to you, but when you get some arrogant customer services agent who tells you to "read our T's&C's" in order to completely ignore your very reasonable request, the idea of telling them to "read your T's&C's" is a good one.

My thought at the time was that the CC company were receiving a lot of charge-backs for this company, and they might have been hinting, without giving anything away, that I should not give up too easily.

 

[Chi Doan]

Firstly, ask them for refund, if they won't, you can dispute, customer often win

 

[Mr D]

Firstly, ask them for refund, if they won't, you can dispute, customer often win

Consumers yes. Not so common for business.

 

[obscure]

Firstly, ask them for refund, if they won't, you can dispute, customer often win

On what legal basis would the OP be able to dispute it? As has been made clear this is a business to business contract so the OP has no legal right to just change his mind.

 

[paulears]

This topic is completely daft. It's the kind of silly stuff consumers write to the BBC about!

We are a business forum, not a consumer forum. T&C topics are common. This topic makes some things very obvious.
UK Law is not the same as US law
Consumer activity is not the same as business activity.
Refunds are often at the discretion of the other party.
Business involves risk.
Being outraged and behaving like a consumer holds no water whatsoever.

And finally...
When you get answers you don't like (but really should have expected) don't get bolshy and try to argue everyone everyone is wrong, the law shouldn't apply, and life is so unfair.

Worst of all - trying to 'pretend' it wasn't a business transaction so you can try your credit card company and defraud them because of your poor research is hardly professional practice or morally appropriate.

 

[Ken Moorhouse]

Worst of all - trying to 'pretend' it wasn't a business transaction so you can try your credit card company and defraud them because of your poor research is hardly professional practice or morally appropriate.

If you are making reference to my post about a charge-back I mentioned earlier in this thread then I need to point out that the purchase I made was for something that only a company would make, and all the documentation that I supplied to the Credit Card company in support of my claim was clearly defined as a company purchase.

 

[paulears]

Then how does consumer law apply? There is no protection on a company purchase so by default, they cannot help.

 

[Ken Moorhouse]

Then how does consumer law apply? There is no protection on a company purchase so by default, they cannot help.

If I make a Company purchase on a credit card and let's say that the supplier goes belly up, don't I have recourse to seek reimbursement from the Credit Card Company?

Now if the Supplier only dealt with Companies surely the Credit Card Company would find it difficult to squirm out of that situation on the grounds that "we can only deal with Consumer transactions" because they signed up the Supplier knowing full well that no consumers would be dealing with that supplier?

 

[fisicx]

If I make a Company purchase on a credit card and let's say that the supplier goes belly up, don't I have recourse to seek reimbursement from the Credit Card Company?

No, you seek to get your money back from the liquidator.

 

[Ken Moorhouse]

No, you seek to get your money back from the liquidator.

Sure