Can i be sacked?

[Doctor Boskonovitch]

Hi there,

I got in some trouble in my work so i would like to gather some information to see where do i stand legally.

OK, all in order.

I work for a company that does all sort of AV related installs i.e. aerial & sat installs, TV installs, sound system installs, etc. It's a private business and i've been working in the company for 1 year and 9 months and so far i haven't been given official contract. The owner of company used to be in charge management wise and he was very messy and unorganised and despite the fact that he brought up on several occasions that he will give me to sign formal contract it never happened so i've been working with sort of mutual agreement.

I use company's van which is kitted out to do my jobs and i take it home every night after work and also keep it over weekends.

Last week my friend's aunt got in touch with me and asked for help with her satellite dish and box as she knew that i do that kind of job. Last Saturday i went to visit her and from our conversation earlier on last week i pretty much knew what will be involved to sort out her SAT. She stays just half a mile down the road and as i wasn't able to use my own car i used company's van to get there. Another thing i had to use is company's SAT analyser (a little box that connects to a dish to be able to see what signal you get from specific satellite). It was a quick job and i did it as a favour and never took any money.

Now, the owner of the company found out that i did that job and went crazy. I went to work this morning and after speaking with General Manager i was suspended on full pay until Wednesday. Apparently we will have a meeting on Wednesday and they will decide what to do and the worst case scenario is that i will get sacked. Apparently the owner thinks that i used some of the company's materials for that job, which i didn't, and also he thinks that i took money, which i didn't either.

Basically it makes it look like i've been doing some jobs on side by using company's equipment, materials and getting paid for that which is not true and that job was done purely as a favour to my friend.

So if it comes to worst and i get sacked where do i stand legally without having a formal contract?

Thanks in advance!

 

[First in Retail]

no contract is the employers problem. you clearly full time employment, therefore there are avenues the employer must go down, getting the sack is highly unlikely, instant sacking is usually down to gross misconduct, from what your saying this imho is not gross misconduct.

See what happens, keep your gob shut, you have the right to take a witness to the meeting, if the crap hits the fan seek legal advice from citizans advice initially.

Do not go in guns blazing, listen and tell them as it is, keep calm, grabbing your boss by the neck accross the desk will get you saked.

keep us posted.

 

[david poole]

you can only be sacked on things you have done -
Not what might be suggested.

I think if you have been with the company for less than a year they can let you go without reason.

 

[bwglaw]

i've been working in the company for 1 year and 9 months and so far i haven't been given official contract.

The employer is not legally required to provide a contract per se, but is required to provide a statement of terms and conditions of employment. Have you been provided with something that covers the main terms of your employment?

i wasn't able to use my own car i used company's van to get there. Another thing i had to use is company's SAT analyser (a little box that connects to a dish to be able to see what signal you get from specific satellite).

The above contradicts your claim below:

Basically it makes it look like i've been doing some jobs on side by using company's equipment, materials and getting paid for that which is not true and that job was done purely as a favour to my friend.

The company van is company equipment and you have just admitted to using the analyser

i did it as a favour and never took any money.

Irrelevant.

So if it comes to worst and i get sacked where do i stand legally without having a formal contract?

Cannot answer that point without establishing whether you have a statement of terms and conditions and if not, whether you have raised a grievance about it. If you have and the employer dismisses you for that reason then that is automatically unfair dismissal.

 

[MASSEY]

Thats kind of a weird one, if they wanted to they could lay you off and you would recieve nothing as you dont get redundancy cash untill you have worked for a company for at least 2 years and with the current economic climate they could do it easy. I think its just the boss throwing his weight around, i think you will be ok.

 

[bwglaw]

This is a disciplinary issue, not a redundancy.

 

[cjd]

Reading just your side of the argument I find that I don't believe it so I'm not surprised your boss doesn't.

A lot of companies allow work 'on the side' as a perk - I suspect yours doesn't - I'd say you'd better start apologising and/or looking for another job.

 

[MASSEY]

This is a disciplinary issue, not a redundancy.

I know that, i am just putting it into a context level, and indicating that if they wanted to get rid of him there is an easier route than sacking, so yes like i said its the boss throwing his weight around.

 

[Doctor Boskonovitch]

The employer is not legally required to provide a contract per se, but is required to provide a statement of terms and conditions of employment. Have you been provided with something that covers the main terms of your employment?

No! So where do I stand then?

The above contradicts your claim below:

The company van is company equipment and you have just admitted to using the analyser.

Yes, I have and the thing is that company’s vans are used for private use on regular basis and my boss has allowed it. Well, not necessarily for doing jobs but then again where is the line? If I use company’s van to go to Supermarket on Sunday to make my weekly shopping that’s OK but if I use it to go around the corner to help friend then it’s not?

I have even done a job for one of my friends where I got paid for it and used companies materials and I told my boss about it before I did the job and I put money I charged for materials in company’s till. At that time he was OK with that but now he is not, I think it all melts down to that I didn’t say anything to him.



As it’s been mentioned here already I don’t believe they will sack me but still better to be prepared.

Regards

 

[Doctor Boskonovitch]

OK, i got sacked. I really don't believe that my offence was that bad that i deserved dismissal without 2nd chance, especially when there has been some another offences done by other individuals recently, like company's phone used for private calls which incurred £50 bill and person responsible didn't even get a slap on the wrist. I'm starting to think that decision was based more on personal feelings than professional grounds.

I'm going through "Acas code of practice" to see what is what and looks like there are a few things that i will need to clarify but can anyone give any advice so far?



Also, bwglaw could you be so kind and clarify Terms & Conditions side?

 

[bwglaw]

You have been employed by the employer for more than 1 year. As you have now been dismissed you should raise a written grievance immediately, without delay. You should also request in writing the reasons for decision

Once you have the reasons, then a claim for unfair dismissal needs to be looked into; whether the dismissal was automatically unfair on the basis you have asserted a statutory right, i.e. a right to a statement of terms and conditions; and, whether you were unfairly dismissed for some other reason. It could be argued on custom and practice grounds that the employer had allowed the personal use of vans. This needs to be assessed carefully when the employer provides the reasons as we do not know the exact reasons for the dismissal.

 

[Doctor Boskonovitch]

You have been employed by the employer for more than 1 year. As you have now been dismissed you should raise a written grievance immediately, without delay. You should also request in writing the reasons for decision

Reading around i'm starting to get confused, is it grievance or appeal i should be raising?

Also, should i get reason for decision before i raise grievance/appeal?

Once you have the reasons, then a claim for unfair dismissal needs to be looked into; whether the dismissal was automatically unfair on the basis you have asserted a statutory right, i.e. a right to a statement of terms and conditions; and, whether you were unfairly dismissed for some other reason. It could be argued on custom and practice grounds that the employer had allowed the personal use of vans. This needs to be assessed carefully when the employer provides the reasons as we do not know the exact reasons for the dismissal.

Sorry, my head is exploding from all the reading done today so can this be interpreted in plain English?

If i understood you correctly then if i haven't bean provided with Terms & Conditions, specifically explaining that i will get dismissed if i'll use company's van and/or equipment without authorisation, and haven't signed it off then, as in my case, if i get dismissed it will be qualified as unfair dismissal?

 

[bwglaw]

Reading around i'm starting to get confused, is it grievance or appeal i should be raising?

Sorry, long day. It is technically an appeal, as it is not clear if the employer has invoked the disciplinary procedure, or whether the employer has one.

First, write to the employer to request written reasons for his decision within 7 days. If this does not arrive or you are not happy with the reasons then lodge an appeal. The employer should be sending you a letter anyway with the decision and stating when and to whom you can appeal.

On the other points, I can advise you directly by email because I would need more information. Alternatively you can contact your local CAB, law centre or a solicitor locally. For guidance only (not legal advice) you can call ACAS, their website is www.acas.gov.uk where you can find their number.

 

[Big Pete]

You used the Companies Fuel added wear and tear on the vehicle used the Companies test machine ladders etc etc .. and all as a favour so you say ?

if i was your boss i would have sacked you as well ..

If it was your business you had sweated and risked money to build up and probably struggling to keep guys like you in a job .. And you saw your vehicle and stuff doing a weekend cash job what would you do ..

Its a fair sacking in future dont rip your employers off ..

 

[bwglaw]

Big Pete - that is rather unfair. From experience, employers are often at fault, not just employees. In this case it seems the employer had 'allowed' the use of company vehicles, not just once either. The employer knew of earlier use of the vehicle and did not act upon it (by creating policy and enforcing it) but in this instance the employer went for the throat and dismissed. A warning probably would have sufficed on the basis of the employer's slapstick approach to dealing with an issue he is not happy with.

Moreover, we do not know if the dismissal is connected to the assertion of any statutory rights, or if at all.

 

[Big Pete]

Big Pete - that is rather unfair. From experience, employers are often at fault, not just employees. In this case it seems the employer had 'allowed' the use of company vehicles, not just once either. The employer knew of earlier use of the vehicle and did not act upon it (by creating policy and enforcing it) but in this instance the employer went for the throat and dismissed. A warning probably would have sufficed on the basis of the employer's slapstick approach to dealing with an issue he is not happy with.

Moreover, we do not know if the dismissal is connected to the assertion of any statutory rights, or if at all.

I do Not think the Company let them use the vans for doing own private jobs right ?

Dress it anyway you like if i was the Boss i wouldnt have just sacked him i would deduct average cost of callout satellite repair to dish etc etc. Invoice him and deduct from his final salary..

Give him the balance and say now go and steal of someone else .. See you in Court

 

[bwglaw]

I do Not think the Company let them use the vans for doing own private jobs right ?

You have missed the point.

Dress it anyway you like if i was the Boss i wouldnt have just sacked him i would deduct average cost of callout satellite repair to dish etc etc. Invoice him and deduct from his final salary..

Give him the balance and say now go and steal of someone else .. See you in Court

Employers with that attitude put bread and water on my table!

 

[Big Pete]

You have missed the point.



Employers with that attitude put bread and water on my table!

I have sacked loads and never been taken to any tribunals

This is a employers forum shouldnt you be on the Ripyourbossofforums.com ??

I have no sympathy for these kind of guys,, i had it with mobile tyre fitters doing cash jobs on evenings and weekends !! They seem to think its ok to use your fuel wear the vans out use the equipment and stick the cash in there pockets

Its theft in my book and if the Bosses let it go there building up future problems sack them ,,no iffs or butts . The rest tow the line thereafter

 

[bwglaw]

Doctor - following my earlier post, see the link here on ACAS website which shows what kind of letters you should be receiving during the disciplinary procedure.

http://www.acas.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1439

If you have not had a letter from the employer giving notice of a disciplinary hearing and on what matters the meeting will hear then that will go against the employer.

My earlier post remains, direct legal advice should be sought.

 

[bwglaw]

I have sacked loads and never been taken to any tribunals

Yet. You know where to come when you get the ET1!

In fact, I predominantly defend employers!

This is a employers forum shouldnt you be on the Ripyourbossofforums.com ??

I have no sympathy for these kind of guys,, i had it with mobile tyre fitters doing cash jobs on evenings and weekends !! They seem to think its ok to use your fuel wear the vans out use the equipment and stick the cash in there pockets

Its theft in my book and if the Bosses let it go there building up future problems sack them ,,no iffs or butts . The rest tow the line thereafter

I am not saying it is right, but two wrongs do not make a right. I am not saying the OP is in the right either, however any rights the OP has must be balanced with the duties and actions of the employer.

 

[Doctor Boskonovitch]

You used the Companies Fuel added wear and tear on the vehicle used the Companies test machine ladders etc etc .. and all as a favour so you say ?

if i was your boss i would have sacked you as well ..

If it was your business you had sweated and risked money to build up and probably struggling to keep guys like you in a job .. And you saw your vehicle and stuff doing a weekend cash job what would you do ..

Its a fair sacking in future dont rip your employers off ..

It's not just black and white here...


Yes it was done as a favour and so it was stated in the statement i made.

Yes, i can understand what you saying about wear and tear but it wasn't like i traveled 100 miles to location, it was just 0.5 miles down the road. I could've used my own car but, as stated in original post, for whatever reason i didn't.

While we on subject, what about using my own mobile and call time for 1 year and 9 month to call workshop and my employer's customers on a daily basis and on occasions also 08 numbers??? Should i now go back to my employer (or should i say ex-employer) and ask for compensation?


As i said above, it's not just black and white. You really have to be part of this to understand what **** goes around in that company!!!

 

[Big Pete]

Yet. You know where to come when you get the ET1!

In fact, I predominantly defend employers!



I am not saying it is right, but two wrongs do not make a right. I am not saying the OP is in the right either, however any rights the OP has must be balanced with the duties and actions of the employer.

Thats why the UK will never have decent industry anymore all the Government crap .. to many workers rights . I never adhere to anything the Government require .. If i employ people they work my way or not at all..

It takes 5 minutes to back date written warnings so Sack who you like when you like is my advice

Do that and maybe just maybe the Country stands a chance

 

[Big Pete]

It's not just black and white here...


Yes it was done as a favour and so it was stated in the statement i made.

Yes, i can understand what you saying about wear and tear but it wasn't like i traveled 100 miles to location, it was just 0.5 miles down the road. I could've used my own car but, as stated in original post, for whatever reason i didn't.

While we on subject, what about using my own mobile and call time for 1 year and 9 month to call workshop and my employer's customers on a daily basis and on occasions also 08 numbers??? Should i know go back to my employer and ask for compensation?


As i said above, it's not just black and white. You really have to be part of this to understand what **** goes around in that company!!!

Strange that as the fitters i sacked for doing them Sunday morning jobs was always there Mates or relatives Trucks .. and they did it just for love

I am putting the case from your bosses point of view ,nothing personal here ok..

 

[bwglaw]

Thats why the UK will never have decent industry anymore all the Government crap....I never adhere to anything the Government require.

That's why you 'moved' to Spain. Are you doing what the Spanish Govt says?

I agree, too many rights, rules and regulations.

 

[cmcp]

Me am boss me got brains.

 

[Big Pete]

That's why you 'moved' to Spain. Are you doing what the Spanish Govt says?

I agree, too many rights, rules and regulations.

No , i am here spending all the money i saved on not having tribunals to pay for

 

[Doctor Boskonovitch]

If you have not had a letter from the employer giving notice of a disciplinary hearing and on what matters the meeting will hear then that will go against the employer.

I was suspended on Monday and received letter on Tuesday titled "Notification of suspension" where i was told that i'm suspended on full pay, pending an investigation. And it was stated in letter that interview is arranged for Wednesday, so i suspect they haven't done anything wrong there but i can make a scan of it tomorrow (or should i say today as it's past midnight) so you can have a quick look to see whether all is as it should be, of course if that's OK with you?

 

[Doctor Boskonovitch]

Strange that as the fitters i sacked for doing them Sunday morning jobs was always there Mates or relatives Trucks .. and they did it just for love

I am putting the case from your bosses point of view ,nothing personal here ok..

I'm not taking it personal .


Just trying to stress the fact that it's not just wrong & right. I have been honest to my employer to a certain level and never have tried to throw him over by advertising to get jobs on a side. The occasional jobs i was getting was from people i know and as i stated earlier i have even told my employer about that and used company's materials and then money went into company's till. In this particular case, i suspect, he just got pissed off because i never said anything to him and his ego got hurt, which i could feel in interview, so that makes me think that his decision was based on his feelings not professional grounds (i think i mentioned this already).

 

[bwglaw]

I was suspended on Monday and received letter on Tuesday titled "Notification of suspension" where i was told that i'm suspended on full pay, pending an investigation. And it was stated in letter that interview is arranged for Wednesday, so i suspect they haven't done anything wrong there but i can make a scan of it tomorrow (or should i say today as it's past midnight) so you can have a quick look to see whether all is as it should be, of course if that's OK with you?

Ah yes. Difficult to keep track of all the facts on a forum. Scan everything and email them over to my office and I will look at them.

 

[craiga1971]

Big Pete

I have to say that I am totally astonished by your attitude. One day you WILL come a cropper at an Employment Tribunal after you have bullied the wrong person.

I think it says a lot about a person when they simply jump to conclusions as you have.

Don't expect an award for Employer of the Year anytime soon.

Craig

 

[Atilla]

I am putting the case from your bosses point of view ,nothing personal here ok..

So you will have read that the boss allowed others to do this without any comebacks?
Attend the Bradley Hardcastle school of Management by any chance?

 

[MikeJ]

Just ignore the troll.

 

[johnt5293]

Thats why the UK will never have decent industry anymore all the Government crap .. to many workers rights . I never adhere to anything the Government require .. If i employ people they work my way or not at all..

It takes 5 minutes to back date written warnings so Sack who you like when you like is my advice

Do that and maybe just maybe the Country stands a chance

The reason the government has had to implement all these rules is exactly because of arogant idiots like yourself. your attitude stinks!

What goes around comes around! I hope others are as supportive for you, as you appear to be for them when you get in trouble!!

 

[Doctor Boskonovitch]

instant sacking is usually down to gross misconduct, from what your saying this imho is not gross misconduct.

After reading around i would like to believe that Gross Misconduct is not set in stone and may vary from company to company and can be manipulated by employers!?!

Could someone with a bit more knowledge comment on this?

 

[johnt5293]

After reading around i would like to believe that Gross Misconduct is not set in stone and may vary from company to company and can be manipulated by employers!?!

Could someone with a bit more knowledge comment on this?

I had a bit of trouble with my employer at the back end of last year. He claimed gross misconduct, but basically he couldn't make it stick, he didnt follow procedure and he had to offer me my job back.

As for wanting help from here, i found it mostly hostile as it is more employer based (though i did have some positive feedback, and you seem to have had mostly helpful coments). The best thing to do is to phone ACAS and tell them the whole story. Thats what I did, and they were very helpful, advised me each step of the way.

Gross misconduct can be almost anything, but it seems (from the information i have gathered) that it is almost impossible (unless you hit your boss of course.. or something very serious) to uphold it.

What i did at your stage was to ring ACAS, who advised me to do the following;

Appeal against the discapline you have received, in writing, stating your case inclusive of why you think it is unfair (other employees have done similar things in the past, have received no punishment etc). You also have a legal right to do this!

Appeal against your dismissal, stating that you think it is unfair, and why etc etc.

Offer to meet with them to discuss whats happened.

I made sure my employer knew i had been in touch with ACAS, and that i knew what my rights were. I put as much info into my letters as possible. It worked for me.

Don't give in... it would seem that you perhaps have done something that is of questionable judgement, but it should be the same rules for everyone.

Good luck, keep us posted

John

 

[Cobby]

No , i am here spending all the money i saved on not having tribunals to pay for

Make sure you don't come back in a hurry; from the posts you've made it sounds like the UK is one cowboy down! ;]

 

[Doctor Boskonovitch]

Phoned ACAS to get some advice, basically they are saying to get appeal rolling and then take it from there. They told that if i don't get any results during appeal then i should get back to them and they will take it further.

Tomorrow will send a letter to employer requesting written reason of dismissal and once i get that then will get appeal going.

Also waiting for further info from bwglaw .


Plus been looking for a new job and in process of sorting out JSA.

 

[Atilla]

Phoned ACAS to get some advice, basically they are saying to get appeal rolling and then take it from there. They told that if i don't get any results during appeal then i should get back to them and they will take it further.

Tomorrow will send a letter to employer requesting written reason of dismissal and once i get that then will get appeal going.

Also waiting for further info from bwglaw .


Plus been looking for a new job and in process of sorting out JSA.

Wise move. Afterall, let's assume you do get your job back, would you actually want to work there after this little episode?
The boss seems to have been looking for a 'victim', aka you. Returning would be like having the sword of damocles hanging over you. That is no way to go on.

Get job back, find another then move on - with record intact.

 

[Big Pete]

Big Pete

I have to say that I am totally astonished by your attitude. One day you WILL come a cropper at an Employment Tribunal after you have bullied the wrong person.

I think it says a lot about a person when they simply jump to conclusions as you have.

Don't expect an award for Employer of the Year anytime soon.

Craig

I am the old breed , when Britain was Great and thats the way we do it..Sorry if it doesnt meet with the new wipe the employees bottoms and make sure you keep them warm and snug all day modern way , but tough ..I will never go to a tribunal and i would never on principle either .. I would sooner close a Company than be dictated to .. I did not elect to be my own Boss so as i can let others tell me what or how to do things ..I did not go into Business to gain any awards for employing people , my experience is employees just do as little as they can .. And the moment they want out they go..So i abide the same rules I much prefer the way i work which ensures my vans do NOT go on any friends repairs or cash jobs on the side etc etc..Any employer who lets the employer take the pee out of them ,by doing side jobs etc , should be shot in my opinion

 

[saxondale]

Get job back, find another then move on - with record intact.

Good advice - because O/P, when the "theft" allegation is made by your ex boss, in defence of your whining I`m off to tribunial act (and it will because he is getting this same advice on a "bosses only" forum) it sort of narrows your options




.