Cafe/Sandwich Shop start up - Please Advice

[BigRigGin]

Hi everybody, im interested in starting a food and drinks place basic cafe/sandwhich shop, would be small at first, to support my family of 3 adults(me/wife/son).

I'm really confused and stressed, I have no idea where to start, no business sense or experience, but I am willing to take that chance on myself and learn as I go along.

I already know what I intend to serve
Who I will serve
and what my USP would be

I don't know, the running costs, what I would need from the powers that be to be allowed to start a business, how I would find or rent a place to use, or even what order I should start, I'm seriously overwhelmed.

Should I be able to access start up funds/finanical assitance etc from Gov/LAA - Anybody know of places or people to ask?

My father and wife run a cafe in another village, but that might be different from an inner city suburb?

Obs, they will advise when they can, but it's new to them also.

If anybody else runs a food establishment and can offer advice, I would be really glad to hear it?

I'm determinded to do this, so what should be my next steps?

1. Write BP(But how without property and full stats of operation?)
2. Secure Capital
3. Secure Property
4. Register Business with Auth
5. Start Business Operations
6. Run Business Succesfully

That seems really simple, but in my mind I see it as complicated and im crippled by the thougt parylsis that I would be missing something and it would either A, not get off the ground, B, Fail Miserably/Rapidly

Thanks for reading and hello to everybody

Mike

 

[japancool]

Are you planning to serve hot, cooked food, or sandwhich with pre-made fillings?

 

[BigRigGin]

Are you planning to serve hot, cooked food, or sandwhich with pre-made fillings?

Both of those. A greasy spoon servings traditional breakfasts/meals + traditional sandwhiches + pastries/buns

If somebody wants a sanwhich it will be fresh bread + a sandwhich filling that I have made/prepared fresh that day. I wouldn't pre make sarnies and then display them.

Eat in or Take-away, like most places I come across these days.

 

[DoolallyTap]

Just ask yourself, how much cash can I put into this venture and how much of that am I prepared to possibly loose. You have to find the property and discover what it will cost to lease/rent and what it will cost to fit out. If it is an existing cafe, why are they really getting out?
How much do you need to pay yourself? wife and son?
It's quite easy to 'guestimate' your total monthly costs and then calculate what you need to sell to cover all that.
You say - I'm really confused and stressed, I have no idea where to start, no business sense or experience -
then probably best not to even start because it will probably just get worse as you go along.

 

[japancool]

Both of those. A greasy spoon servings traditional breakfasts/meals + traditional sandwhiches + pastries/buns

If somebody wants a sanwhich it will be fresh bread + a sandwhich filling that I have made/prepared fresh that day. I wouldn't pre make sarnies and then display them.

Eat in or Take-away, like most places I come across these days.

If you're cooking food on-premises, you'll need a kitchen. That could be expensive. Do you have the funds to kit one out? You could be talking tens of thousands, although your needs might be minimal if you just need a grill. You'll need a cold cabinet (or whatever they're called) to store your pre-made fillings.

Premises wise - you'll be relying on walk-in trade, so you need to decide where you want to set up, and you need to research on the footfall, and the cost of premises in that area.

Remember - energy costs are high right now.

 

[BigRigGin]

I'm prepared to lose everything in monetary value because I feel that I have everything else I need in my life, but I'm also prepared to give it everything I have got, because it is what I want from my life and I feel like being my own boss is what will make me happy.

Thanks for the advice, re prop/costs.

I don't see confusion and stress as a reason not to start something, surely lots of budding business owners will feel the same trepdition about it, that's not a reason in my opinion to not start something that interests you. We all have to learn from experiences.

I do have experience of working in an establishment like the one that I am asking about.

 

[BigRigGin]

Just ask yourself, how much cash can I put into this venture and how much of that am I prepared to possibly loose. You have to find the property and discover what it will cost to lease/rent and what it will cost to fit out. If it is an existing cafe, why are they really getting out?
How much do you need to pay yourself? wife and son?
It's quite easy to 'guestimate' your total monthly costs and then calculate what you need to sell to cover all that.
You say - I'm really confused and stressed, I have no idea where to start, no business sense or experience -
then probably best not to even start because it will probably just get worse as you go along.

I'm prepared to lose everything in monetary value because I feel that I have everything else I need in my life, but I'm also prepared to give it everything I have got, because it is what I want from my life and I feel like being my own boss is what will make me happy.

Thanks for the advice, re prop/costs.

I don't see confusion and stress as a reason not to start something, surely lots of budding business owners will feel the same trepdition about it, that's not a reason in my opinion to not start something that interests you. We all have to learn from experiences.

I do have experience of working in an establishment like the one that I am asking about.

 

[japancool]

Both of those. A greasy spoon servings traditional breakfasts/meals + traditional sandwhiches + pastries/buns

The reason I ask is, you could consider a sandwich bar with pre-made fillings (not pre-made sandwiches). The advantage is that you don't need a kitchen, you can make the fillings at home or on premise with cold ingredients. You would still need a hygiene certificate for wherever you're preparing them - your council can advise on this. All you'd really need is a fridge, cold-cabinet and toaster. Plus kettle/coffee machine.

Good sandwich bars can make a lot of money, prep-time per customer is shorter, so you can serve more customers in the available time.

But it very much depends on whether there's any demand for that sort of thing in your target area. Some people don't want an Emmental and pancetta sandwhich, they just want a bog-standard ham and cheese.

 

[Mark T Jones]

There are too many questions to even start to properly address them all.

However, a great way to focus your thoughts and to ask better questions is to get hold of a cashflow template and to start working on it. Don't worry at all about getting it right on the first few laps - that will take many tries (arguably infinite), the value lies in the research you put into getting each part to make sense.

Start your search by looking for former sandwich shops, ideally fitted with the equipment and licences you will need. Buying new will soon become expensive.

You say you are clear on your target market ? USP, which is good, however you must continue to research and to gear your offering entirely to their buying habits. One of the most common failings of F & B outlets is for the owner to offer what they think is good, rather than what the customer wants to pay for.

You might qualify for a Government Start Up Loan up to £25K (more if there are several of you) on the back of a solid, researched business plan. Beyond that, it's good old FFF and commercial lenders. As someone who makes a living from lending to hospitality businesses, I'd strongly advise you to avoid borrowing until you are absolutely clear on what you are doing.

 

[DoolallyTap]

Loose all your capital and loose your house and everything else and see if you are still happy. Ok, find the premises, produce you BP, P&L forecast, if it adds up and you really can be excited and motivated instead of confused and stressed go for it.
Go and sit in your nearest competitor for a while, early morning one day, midday another day, late afternoon another day, go on a cold wet weekday and a hot sunny day, go again on a Saturday, visit all the local competition several time each, analyse what they do, how they do it see what is good see how many customers they get, try to see how much they spend, try to establish what their turnover is, research cafe profitably, potential margins, pitfalls and anything else that may be relevant, then research it all again. think of that amount of cash you have to invest, how much do you need to borrow, will it work???

 

[japancool]

You might qualify for a Government Start Up Loan up to £25K (more if there are several of you) on the back of a solid, researched business plan. Beyond that, it's good old FFF and commercial lenders. As someone who makes a living from lending to hospitality businesses, I'd strongly advise you to avoid borrowing until you are absolutely clear on what you are doing.

It is, of course, in the name but it's worth pointing out that the SUL is a personal loan that must be paid back even if the business fails.

 

[Mark T Jones]

It is, of course, in the name but it's worth pointing out that the SUL is a personal loan that must be paid back even if the business fails.

Indeed. They will make that abundantly clear.

Also, any commercial borrowing will require PGs.

 

[Mark T Jones]

I'll also throw in a few operational considerations which newbies often overlook. (After you've got to grips with premises, licencing, staff, insurance etc etc)


- Portion control. Your USP might be to stuff your sandwiches full, but it is important that your ingredient costs is under close control & scrutiny - ideally not more that 25% of menu price.

- Wastage / stock control. To quote Ken Hom, 'if you want to improve profits, start by looking in the bin'.

- Workflow. You will have significant peaks and troughs, it is important that you are uber-efficient at peak times. Everything from how you assemble a sandwich, where hand-wash is located, how staff work around each other etc.

- Customer flow. People like a busy shop, but don't like to queue. Get your head around that one!. Make the most of upsell space & opportunities. Ensure that waiting customers and seated customers aren't in each others' way.

- Staffing. Have fun with that one!

There are more!

 

[MBE2017]

OP, I would recommend doing one or the other, a sandwich bar or cafe. Personally I would not go into or order from a greasy spoon cafe if I was looking for a sandwich.

Now, purely as a buyer, I order a weekly treat, a baguette from a sandwich bar approx 2 miles away, through just eat each week. ATM they are run off their feet, doing very well, have excellent feedback and plenty of repeat clients. The bread and ingredients are always very fresh. They also charge suitably, £7-8 per baguette plus delivery charges. Add on crisps, soft drinks etc, and most people will end up paying £12 plus for a simple email order. Cafes charge less and let you sit down for 1-2 hours, whilst heating and lighting the place.

One last point to consider, you will eventually want to take family holidays, how do you plan to cope with that in the future? The food service industry tends to run 365 days of the year for many places, a most rarely close for more than a few days per year.

 

[IanSuth]

I dont know your location but i know a successful business doing what you suggest.

They have minimal hot offerings (if you ignore a panini press as a hot offering), have a great rep locally but also have a separate business in the upstairs of the venue in the evenings (a cocktail bar with a regular comedy club)

https://theshedcafe.co.uk/ - read the "find out more" and look how small the offering actually is - no need for 400 different options

 

[fisicx]

@BigRigGin - start by getting a job in the local Starbucks, subway, cafe or anywhere else they do fast food.

After 3 months ask yourself if this is really something you want to do.

 

[BigRigGin]

Some very helpful and fantastic replies here. Thanks for all taking the time to reply.

 

[BigRigGin]

@BigRigGin - start by getting a job in the local Starbucks, subway, cafe or anywhere else they do fast food.

After 3 months ask yourself if this is really something you want to do.

Been there, done that. I actually enjoyed it, but I enjoy the idea of providing my own hospitality more, not somebody elses offering.

 

[WaveJumper]

You may of enjoyed it but it was not your neck on the block financially. What have you done with your life so far, what career / experience have you got under your belt.

Convince me you have what it takes to succeed, because, and I am sorry to be blunt I don't feel you have a cat in hells chance of getting this idea off the ground.

 

[BillyB]

The catering industry at the moment is one of the toughest gigs due to constant competition and rising costs and it appears to only be getting worse. I opened my own Sandwich Shop at the start of 2020 and looking back now it was a total nightmare which lost me just over £30k.

Finding an ideal shop is tough and ideally you want parking right out front because from my experience people will not park across the road or round the corner and walk over, they want to pop in and get straight out. In terms of the size of the unit, I would recommend around 700-1000sq ft which on average would cost you £1000 per month depending on location.

You've then got the fit-out and that can be expensive, you'll first need to apply for A3/A5 planning if the premises doesn't have it already and this can have objections from residents. Chances are if you find a unit with this type of planning they whack on another £500/£1000 per month of rent.

Other things include safety flooring (circa £3/£4k), wall cladding, extractor fan (requires planning permission), heat plates, large commercial sinks, hand wash basins etc. Not to mention if the shop doesn't have a boiler you will need to electric water heaters which can be very hefty to run.

Staffing is also a huge issue at the moment because lets face it not many people want to work hard anymore, you'll have to deal with them calling in sick, not working as hard as they should be and getting lazy. Plus with the announcement of the £11 per hour wage you'll be paying out more.

Having said all that, some people do still make it work but I'm yet to see someone do very well with this type of business, there's a sandwich shop near me that has been open 30 years and the owner still makes very little profit. Sorry to sound like a right Debbie Downer with this reply.

If you do still decide this is for you, I would recommend Virgin Start Up Loans where you can get up to £25k and your wife could also get £25k as a joint loan. They provide mentoring and assign you with a coach to help grow the business and provide some promo.

 

[WaveJumper]

And unfortunately on every street corner is either a Tesco Express, CoOp etc etc selling take away food along with Petrol Stations, many even now sporting what seems like the UK favourite, Greggs, the high-streets are full of coffee shops basically unless your completely unique (and I can't think of a way) the market in my view is completely saturated

 

[Mark T Jones]

The comments have raised so key questions that you need to consider (if you haven't already)

The biggest being - are you planning to create jobs for you and your family making sandwiches, or to build a sandwich business?

Does your USP lend itself to passing footfall, or will you be a stop-off / destination?

The experience thing always comes up -IMO, it's always handy, but not critical for success. I'd far rather see detailed costings and a coherent marketing plan than experience in Subways!

In crass business speak 'sweat your assets'. You have dedicated space and resources to make sandwiches and other food. Think of ways to use all of that to its fullest, not just selling sandwiches over the counter.

 

[Mark T Jones]

And unfortunately on every street corner is either a Tesco Express, CoOp etc etc selling take away food along with Petrol Stations, many even now sporting what seems like the UK favourite, Greggs, the high-streets are full of coffee shops basically unless your completely unique (and I can't think of a way) the market in my view is completely saturated

Flooded markets are for people who don't understand niches.

There are still plenty of opportunities in this space - but they do require vision, research and focus.

The limp, tasteless sandwiches in Tesco Express actually create an opportunity for sandwiches that taste of something.

 

[WaveJumper]

Blimey Subway I forgotten about them. Sitting here mulling this over think if I was going down the "food" route it would be festivals and such like events, massive footfall and only need to work the big events and have the rest of the year off.

 

[MBE2017]

Blimey Subway I forgotten about them. Sitting here mulling this over think if I was going down the "food" route it would be festivals and such like events, massive footfall and only need to work the big events and have the rest of the year off.

Not an easy market to get into. Established shows already have the food sites sold, sometimes years ahead. Things might have changed now, but when I used to do large shows the rents on the sites were ten times an ordinary sales stall, and sometimes 3-5 year contracts in place.

You need huge deep pockets for that lifestyle, each show could make or lose a fortune depending on the weather, foot and mouth outbreaks, Covid etc. Personally I made more on a standard market stall than shows, once the huge rent paid one year up front was taken into account, each show tied up enough resources to start a new business.

 

[IanSuth]

In crass business speak 'sweat your assets'. You have dedicated space and resources to make sandwiches and other food. Think of ways to use all of that to its fullest, not just selling sandwiches over the counter.

This

If you look at the website i posted - they got a good name with the local business crowd popping in at lunch, then started offering plates of sandwiches etc for meetings.

If people like your offering then if they get a chance to influence the purchasing for their work meetings they will promote you (especially if you are a bit pricey but they are getting their company to pay) - being able to prep up a bunch of sanwiches in the morning before the lunch rush and just get a big single chunk of £ is lot easier money than making and selling to 50 different people

 

[japancool]

Greggs is probably a bigger hurdle than Tesco Express, or even Subway.

I am rather partial to a Delice de France bacon and cheese croissant though.

 

[Drax35]

Some great advice and points made above.

I have over a decade of experience in franchised food-to-go and it's not an area I'd be keen to dip my toes into again right now!

Before you take the plunge, look at the businesses for sale in the area you're considering. Where I am, there are tonnes of nicely kitted out, busy-looking, well regarded businesses selling good (or at least Instagrammable) food often for prices that suggest they're making a killing. Very few of them shifting and most are asking for less than the fit out costs.

If you truly have a great idea, you might get some nice premises on the cheap but it's a tough market out there right now.

If there is any kind of price sensitivity in the area you're considering (and there almost certainly will be), be very careful. The price people are willing to pay for sandwiches etc may not be what you hope it will be. Due to the volumes they have, McDonalds, Greggs, supermarkets etc give people a false idea of what this sort of food should cost, perpetuated by independents that price far too low to compete. No matter how incredible your sandwiches, it'll be a tough gig trying to get people to pay top dollar.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

Sorry, a bit late joining in.

I'm really confused and stressed, I have no idea where to start, no business sense or experience, but I am willing to take that chance on myself and learn as I go along.

I do not want to start on a downer, but the first question you need to ask yourself is 'how much am I prepared to lose/can afford to lose'?

It is very important you get the right advice on several areas like lease, refit, H&S etc, as scrimping now can cost you in the future.

how I would find or rent a place to use, or even what order I should start,

You look for it and ask!

You need somewhere that offers a good footfall with minimal competition - sadly, many of those will have already gone.

Avoid taking over closing businesses, as they are probably closing for a relevant reason.

Should I be able to access start up funds/finanical assitance etc from Gov/LAA - Anybody know of places or people to ask?

It is extremely unlikely (i.e. no chance) that you will find 'free' money to develop this. A Startup Loan might help, but that is effectively a personal loan.

I don't see confusion and stress as a reason not to start something, surely lots of budding business owners will feel the same trepdition about it, that's not a reason in my opinion to not start something that interests you. We all have to learn from experiences

Not a reason not to start something, but the main reason businesses fail and food based businesses fail more often than not!

@BigRigGin - start by getting a job in the local Starbucks, subway, cafe or anywhere else they do fast food.

After 3 months ask yourself if this is really something you want to do.

Been there, done that. I actually enjoyed it, but I enjoy the idea of providing my own hospitality more, not somebody elses offering.

Enjoying it as a job is not the same as running the business, but it is good you have at least this experience.

 

[MOIC]

I'm really confused and stressed, I have no idea where to start, no business sense or experience, but I am willing to take that chance on myself and learn as I go along.

I don't know, the running costs, what I would need from the powers that be to be allowed to start a business, how I would find or rent a place to use, or even what order I should start, I'm seriously overwhelmed.

That seems really simple, but in my mind I see it as complicated and im crippled by the thougt parylsis that I would be missing something and it would either A, not get off the ground, B, Fail Miserably/Rapidly

Why are you doing this, if you feel all the above?

Think with your head, not your heart.

 

[Russ Michaels]

You absolutely must get food safety/hygiene training and get certified.
It is neither legal or ethical to run any food business without this, and if you do so, you are likely to get shut down and fined as you risk making people sick.

I would suggest creating a business plan, which you will need for a business loan anyway, this will also help you to nail down all your requirements and costs/expenses.
If you do not work out your costs for the food you sell, then you will also have no idea how much to charge and how much profit you will be making, if any.

For the food it is pretty simple. You just need to calculate what the cost of the individual ingredients are per meal or sandwich.
So if your tub of butter costs £10 for 1000g, the cost is 0.01p per g
If you use 2g per sandwich, then the cost is 0.02p

You would do the same calculation for all ingredients, then add them together.
then you add your desired profit, taking into consideration the average price your competitors charge.

You do also have to consider your other costs such as gas, electricity, salaries, phone, rent etc. Some things you cannot really tell in advance what they are going to be, so you have to take the average after you have been running for a few months. In the meantime, all you can do is try to find the average costs online for similar businesses and us that as a basis.

buying wholesale is obviously cheaper, but not if you end up throwing most of it away because you didn't use it, so you have to keep track of usage and requirements and don;t stock more than you use/need.

If you plan to do online ordering then take a look at foodbooking.uk
there is a free plan which you can use for basic collection/delivery, order ahead, promotions etc

 

[Chris Ashdown]

A alternative view

In Great Yarmouth we have , a Mobile van that came around all the business area's twice a day, breakfast and lunch time, they served both warm items like sausage rolls, Cornish pastries and cold Sandwiches along with chock bars, crisp's, and simple fruit

They had commercial vans see https://www.facebook.com/Juicylucysgreatyarmouth/?locale=en_GB

Food done on premises to supply vans, no café, and also restock when low on vans

Much safer startup with no rent etc, option food could be done at home

van for sale https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/14438634...dcqaA7jYVz5N83sLzSB2NZ1-Y1fjzu-BoC63wQAvD_BwE

 

[fisicx]

Only problem with that plan is there are already loads of people doing the same thing.

I used to do a bit of contracting at a business park and there were about 10 vans per day all at different times. I seem to recall they paid the business park owners a premium for the license to sell

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Only problem with that plan is there are already loads of people doing the same thing.

I used to do a bit of contracting at a business park and there were about 10 vans per day all at different times. I seem to recall they paid the business park owners a premium for the lice

Do you think you have exaggerated the number of vans, but anyway the main area's are small business and offices, where the employers lets the staff out to buy, not the big parks but the secondary area's with small business

Far better option than taking out a lease, shop fittings and walk in customers,

 

[fisicx]

Used to get two in the morning for breakfast then a couple doing the tea and coffee then more at lunch, mid afternoon plus an evening run for the late shift.

Even small local business park already have regular sandwich vans.

There are opportunities but it’s becoming harder to find sufficient business to make it viable.