Brexit negotiations

[Newchodge]

The Vaccine - one good reason we left the EU. We would be still waiting for them to OK the Oxford vaccine and be last in the queue to be supplied from Pfizer. Could not make up their minds and we would have been forced to go with them.

No, we would not. This is one of the (many) areas in which member states could make their own decisions.

 

[Clodbuster]

I bow to your superior knowledge but it does not appear to be the case. Why would there be such a fuss when they are not being supplied??

 

[Newchodge]

I bow to your superior knowledge but it does not appear to be the case. Why would there be such a fuss when they are not being supplied??

You are talking about 2 completely different things.

 

[MBE2017]

No, we would not. This is one of the (many) areas in which member states could make their own decisions.

Hungary have now broken ranks, and are buying the vaccine from the UK and Russia, much to Brussels annoyance.

 

[Newchodge]

Hungary have now broken ranks, and are buying the vaccine from the UK and Russia, much to Brussels annoyance.

The main point being that they CAN do it, contrary to the claims of those who use it as a reason why it was good for us to leave the EU.

 

[Irontoe]

3. Because bands and other musical acts can only earn a living by touring abroad. The UK market on its' own is not large enough.

Fish (ex of Marillion (sorry, I was a big prog rock fan in my youth) not the happy fish in our North Sea) posted a long article about the struggles he now faces touring Europe. He wasn’t sensationalist, he just went through each hurdle he would now have to face. He’s an established artist, with forty odd years behind him so he’s not some unknown, he has a fan base and yet he will struggle.

It’s well worth seeking out to understand some of the complexities brexit has bought to the music industry.

 

[Newchodge]

Fish (ex of Marillion (sorry, I was a big prog rock fan in my youth) not the happy fish in our North Sea) posted a long article about the struggles he now faces touring Europe. He wasn’t sensationalist, he just went through each hurdle he would now have to face. He’s an established artist, with forty odd years behind him so he’s not some unknown, he has a fan base and yet he will struggle.

Do you remember? (humming)

 

[Clodbuster]

The main point being that they CAN do it, contrary to the claims of those who use it as a reason why it was good for us to leave the EU.

Whether required to order together or not we would have (more than likely) waited to link with the EU as every other "state" has. Unfortunately they are dreadfully slow and indecisive. So good for us to leave.

 

[Clodbuster]

German media today rounded on the EU over Europe's vaccine debacle - calling it 'the best advert for Brexit' while blaming chief Ursula von der Leyen for a three-month delay in ordering jabs compared to the UK.

The EU is acting 'slowly, bureaucratically and protectionist... and if something goes wrong, it's everyone else's fault' fumed a front-page editorial in Die Zeit, one of Germany's best-respected broadsheets.
Embarrassingly for the bloc, it appears that Germany, the Netherlands, France and Italy had originally been looking to do a deal with AstraZeneca in May alongside the UK - but were blocked by the EU, which insisted it take over negotiations.

 

[Paul Norman]

I am actually intrigued by this thread now. Brexit negotiations are, of course, no longer a matter of debate.

I propose a new thread. Brexit recriminations.

I also propose, although side of that, one entitled 'Ways my life and business is better now'

 

[Deleted member 59730]

I bow to your superior knowledge but it does not appear to be the case. Why would there be such a fuss when they are not being supplied??

Two different things. Approvals and orders. EU have yet to approve the Oxford Vaccine.

Can't say too much as I have had my first jab and Bill Gates is watching my every move.

 

[Ally Maxwell]

Watched James May's Cars of the People last night. (First episode of season 2).

The UK geared up in the early 70s for its assault on the 'Common Market' car buyers by designing and producing a car that was going to take Europe by storm, set the UK economy flying and put us firmly on the mass market car exporting map.

That car was the Austin Allegro,

Seems we've learned very little in the last 40 or 50 years.

 

[Clodbuster]

Can't say too much as I have had my first jab and Bill Gates is watching my every move.

and my arm is going to fall off any minute.

 

[Newchodge]

and my arm is going to fall off any minute.

But at least you now have 2 heads to compensate

 

[KM-Tiger]

That car was the Austin Allegro,

Seems we've learned very little in the last 40 or 50 years.

Oh we have, we don't make Allegros any more.

I did own one for a couple of years, dreadful.

 

[Newchodge]

Oh we have, we don't make Allegros any more.

I did own one for a couple of years, dreadful.

Allegro, Spanish for happy. Showed a little more foresight than the Vauxhall Nova. No va in many southern european languages meaning doesn't go.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

I remember the announcement of a big, for those days, government investment in Longbridge to design a new car. At the same time the government announced a big cut in art teaching in schools. The one thing which the car would succeed with was its design.

Around about that time every single head or deputy head of design in European car makers had graduated from the Royal College of Art. None were in the UK.

 

[thetiger2015]

I remember the announcement of a big, for those days, government investment in Longbridge to design a new car. At the same time the government announced a big cut in art teaching in schools. The one thing which the car would succeed with was its design.

Around about that time every single head or deputy head of design in European car makers had graduated from the Royal College of Art. None were in the UK.

Reminds me of the Shanghai/Rover deal that went to pieces because the Brits got too drunk.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ers-with-alcohol-says-ex-director-493976.html

"While Longbridge was producing around 125,000 cars a year with a 6,000-strong workforce, some companies can build half a million with the same numbers. Some £25m was poured into motor racing to no effect. Mr Stevens said MG Rover management was reluctant to do business overseas, but when they did so, they were lavish with expenses."

The UK has not been a leading manufacturer (in the traditional sense) for over 50 years. Look at the steel industry, it's all based on imports now.

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/n...t-furnace-redcars-former-ssi-site-dismantled/ <<< they're planning to demolish the last blast furnace in Teesside, despite hopes of it being resurrected (too expensive once it's cooled and cracked)

In terms of modern industry, perhaps pharma - but we still cannot produce at the scale or cost price of India/China, therefore we are not competitive enough for large scale exporting and can only sell internally.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

While Longbridge was producing around 125,000 cars a year with a 6,000-strong workforce, some companies can build half a million with the same numbers.

That doesn't mean much. Some factories have fully assembled bits delivered to the assembly line from halfway round the world while other do it all on one site.

The UK car industry was ruined by bad management who were not the kind of people to work WITH the unions.

 

[Clodbuster]

I was not in the UK then but were the unions not impossible to work with?

 

[Scalloway]

Both unions and management in many industries chose a confrontational style in the 1970s.

 

[DontAsk]

Oh we have, we don't make Allegros any more.

I did own one for a couple of years, dreadful.

I learned to drive in my Dad's Allegro. Fond memories.

 

[DontAsk]

In terms of modern industry, perhaps pharma - but we still cannot produce at the scale or cost price of India/China, therefore we are not competitive enough for large scale exporting and can only sell internally.

There you hit the nail on the head. Population. Allow 500m immigrants in, put them all to work, and we would be able to compete

China turns out more engineers every year than the UK population. I exaggerate, but it's still a ridiculously high number to expect the UK to be able to compete.

Add in IP theft, etc., ...

 

[Deleted member 59730]

I was not in the UK then but were the unions not impossible to work with?

My first job after leaving school was in a car factory, Morris Motors in Cowley. There were frequent union problems caused by bad management. The impression that it was always the unions fault was a fiction of the right wing press.

Lord Nuffield had sold out to the merged Austin-Morris company BMC. Although he was only an honorary director he drove into work every day in his distinctive coach built 1937 Wolseley. It could clearly be seen in the management car park at 8 o'clock in the morning. The senior management's cars started arriving after 10:30. Many didn't arrive until after 11:00. They stopped at 12:30 for lunch and then left at 4:00.

The workers understandably had no respect for the bosses. Assembly line work was hot, noisy, dirty and exhausting. Most of the stoppages were because of mistakes in the way the work was organised.

A big source of wasted money was the rivalry between the Morris directors and the Austin directors.

 

[MBE2017]

The senior management's cars started arriving after 10:30. Many didn't arrive until after 11:00. They stopped at 12:30 for lunch and then left at 4:00.

The workers understandably had no respect for the bosses. Assembly line work was hot, noisy, dirty and exhausting. Most of the stoppages were because of mistakes in the way the work was organised.

I worked just outside the Cowley entrance and used to watch the night shift walking in with their sleeping bags. Bad management, bad Unions, lazy workers. No wonder they went bust.

 

[Ally Maxwell]

Oh we have, we don't make Allegros any more.

I did own one for a couple of years, dreadful.

Technically speaking, correct, but Britian has figuratively been building Allegros ever since and still is.

 

[Clodbuster]

All I know is that British cars were universally slated in the 60-80's.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

The Vaccine - one good reason we left the EU. We would be still waiting for them to OK the Oxford vaccine and be last in the queue to be supplied from Pfizer. Could not make up their minds and we would have been forced to go with them.

EU deal was struck so late AstraZeneca could only offer to make its 'best efforts' to meet supply targets, rather than a firm guarantee.

'The reason why we said that is because Europe wanted to be supplied more or less at the same time as the UK, even though the contract was signed three months later. So we said 'OK, we're going to do our best, we're going to try, but we cannot commit contractually because we are three months behind the UK'.

It'll be interesting to see how this row unfolds, as it could be a bellwether for how future interactions and disputes play out.

I don't think anyone ever questioned that a post-Brexit UK could be more nimble than the EU. But where the EU has the upper hand is its economic and political clout. It is, after all, the second largest economy in the world and nearly 6 times larger than the UK.

We can do things our own way at the expense of the EU, but the question is how much they can retaliate in kind. They're already drawing up plans to control EU-manufactured vaccine exports. This wouldn't just restrict part of the AstraZeneca supply chain, but it could completely cut off our supply of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, which may have better overall efficacy according to the studies.

I wouldn't chalk this up as a win just yet.

 

[Clodbuster]

So we must just lie on our back and get shafted? Perhaps it may persuade the powers that be NOT to rely on the EU.
Had we stayed with the EU we would have been worse off.

 

[Clinton]

I don't think anyone ever questioned that a post-Brexit UK could be more nimble than the EU.

I remember all the Remainers falling over themselves to tell us how we'd be quicker off the mark to respond with financial measures to deal with the pandemic (while the EU farted about for six months). I remember the Remainers waxing lyrical about how post-Brexit UK would be more nimble than the EU. There were floods of those posts (but I can't seem to find them now).

I wouldn't chalk this up as a win just yet.

Remind me again, what percentage of the UK population have been vaccinated vs what percentage in the EU?

You look like you're deperately trying to carve out a win for the EU where there isn't one or at least covering up the loss with an argument that they might still win in the future. Because they are, after all, this huge economy blah, blah.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I remember all the Remainers falling over themselves to tell us how we'd be quicker off the mark to respond with financial measures to deal with the pandemic (while the EU farted about for six months). I remember the Remainers waxing lyrical about how post-Brexit UK would be more nimble than the EU. There were floods of those posts (but I can't seem to find them now).

The point was that in general, the UK's gains in flexibility/agility would be cancelled out by the loss of the political/financial/economic clout that being in the EU provides.

This may still prove to be the case in certain matters. Time will tell.

Remind me again, what percentage of the UK population have been vaccinated vs what percentage in the EU?

This pandemic won't be over until the majority of the population has been vaccinated. We're at around 10% so far. We still have 90% to go. And that 10% is based on doses given, so the vast majority are still on their first dose only, meaning that full two-dose immunisation is a significantly lower percentage.

You wouldn't run the first 10 metres of a 100 metre sprint and claim you've won the race, would you? There's a long year still to go, and plenty can happen with the various supply chains during that time, including the possibility that the EU will block Pfizer vaccine exports to the UK (which have better efficacy) and accelerate their own vaccination program at the expense of ours.

And what about the Covid variants that currently exist and will exist in future? What if the Pfizer vaccine turns out to have much better efficacy? The tables could turn very quickly.

We're doing very well so far, but it's very premature to suggest we have "won" and that we'll ultimately escape the clutches of this pandemic faster than the EU will.

 

[MBE2017]

Well, the EU have instigated a hard border for Norther Ireland, by triggering Article 16 within a month of this agreement having started, at least for vaccines, and are taking measures to stop and interrupt supplies to the NHS by banning vaccine exports to the UK.

Despite the releasing of the copy of their AZ contract, badly redacted, it has been shown AZ have been straight and honest all along.

Strange friends, these EU types.

 

[simon field]

This pandemic won't be over until the majority of the population has been vaccinated. We're at around 10% so far. We still have 90% to go.

Not being pedantic here - Surely 10% plus 90% isn’t just a majority, it’s an entirety?

Are you saying literally everyone has to have it?

Or about 60-70%?

 

[MBE2017]

Not being pedantic here - Surely 10% plus 90% isn’t just a majority, it’s an entirety?

Are you saying literally everyone has to have it?

Or about 60-70%?

Ideally 80/85% to be immune/herd immunity, which would probably take 1 year to achieve at current levels of immunisation.

That said once the two/three most at risk groups are immunised, the care home residents, 80+ age group and social workers/careers, then 80/90% of current deaths from covid19 would be reduced significantly, allowing a much faster return to so called normality.

 

[Mr D]

Ideally 80/85% to be immune/herd immunity, which would probably take 1 year to achieve at current levels of immunisation.

That said once the two/three most at risk groups are immunised, the care home residents, 80+ age group and social workers/careers, then 80/90% of current deaths from covid19 would be reduced significantly, allowing a much faster return to so called normality.

Yes, so long as the NHS can cope with the sick.
Deaths, while bad for the individual and family, free up beds in the NHS when it's someone in hospital died. Replace bedding, put new patient in.
Currently very high hospital numbers, get that down considerably and there is room for numbers to increase again.
Though if doubling every xx days once lockdown off then removing it may only be temporary. Depending on capacity.

 

[Clinton]

Remainers have very short memories. Here's an article from July 2020. It's in their beloved Guardian so it must be gospel.

UK officials didn't sign up to the EU's vaccine programme because "signing up to the scheme could delay the rollout of a vaccine by up to six months while talks on distribution took place"

Was that smart at the time, or what?! Delay is exactly what happened while the EU talked and talked and couldn't take action (because they are such a big, lumbering mess).

But there was also this concern:

They also raised concerns that countries which opted in would be subject to a cap on the number of doses allocated to each member state.

Since then the EU have demonstrated vaccine protectionism. We were smart to not just trust them back then (despite Labour screaming blue murder)!

And here's one for @Scott-Copywriter and his EU purchasing power bullsh*t:

Officials also told the newspaper that the benefits of the EU programme are “limited” as most pharmaceutical companies are offering the UK similar prices to other countries despite the bloc stating that “collective purchasing power” will enable potential economies of scale.

And today? Brussels has been forced into a humiliating U-turn".

I thought I'd post that as the RRRs* wouldn't have seen it. They don't read stuff like this. But, again, this was in the Guardian so it must be true. I'm sure the RRRs are very disappointed that their EU lost this one.

*RRR = Rabid Ranting Remainer

 

[Newchodge]

Looks as if the fishing industry has been shafted even worse than expected by Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55903599 EU shellfish market gone.

 

[Ally Maxwell]

Looks as if the fishing industry has been shafted even worse than expected by Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55903599 EU shellfish market gone.

I'm sure Clinton or one of his sycophants will be along presently to explain why this is great news !

 

[Mr D]

Looks as if the fishing industry has been shafted even worse than expected by Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55903599 EU shellfish market gone.

You mean no one told them before the UK voted?

Come to think of it, the plight of shellfish sellers did not influence my brexit vote in 2016 at all. Lots of other factors, just the shellfish sellers was irrelevant to the decision.

Anyone consider them when deciding which way to vote? Presumably they themselves took account of shellfish sales at the time.

Still, just think how much more they could have sold with a WTO deal.

 

[DontAsk]

Only those landed in "class A" waters - the very cleanest - can currently be transported from the UK to the EU without the need for purification beforehand. But most UK waters are not in that category.

Perhaps we should be fixing that.