big of a complicated situation

[Webgirl]

Hi all, I have a client that I have worked with for a few years. they are a bit chaotic and not always easy to work with because if that but we have always got on well and I have really tried to go the extra mile for them. they wanted me to build 5 websites for them for different projects and asked for costs and a 'deal'. They like a deal and have always sought to reduce my fees due to the amount of work. they are a reasonable sized client and so I was always ok with this to a large degree.

I laid out cost for 5 sites both indvidually and as a package deal. they went for the deal and asked for payment terms over time and I agreed because it would take maybe a year to do all the work given I knew they were not always really on the ball and often got pulled off into other projects.

anyway I did the first two to agreed briefs, they really liked them and both sites are in use still. They went quiet for a bit which is not unusual then got back in touch to say let's move on with site three. I said sure, let's confirm the brief, please start sending content etc which they said they would.

then a week later they emailed to say actually they had changed their mind, they no longer want to go ahead with the remaining three sites. they said they weren't sure if they were the right solution, that they needed time to think before definitely going ahead with them but probably not. I personally thought it was more like money issues but thought whatever and emailed saying I'm sorry to hear that, it would have been great to do the work but as you have not gone ahead with the package deal, or rather, pulled out of it, I would send an adjusted invoice to reflect the original fees quoted. I also said in the email that if they picked the last websites up again with me I would revert back to the package price.

I heard nothing and I knew they were traveling overseas. This was leading up to Christmas. They didn't pay the invoice. I chased it in late January when I knew they were back in the country thinking it was just an oversight. they said they wanted to discuss it but they were disappointed to get the invoice.

I just reiterated that I felt it was fair as they didn't merit the discount now the last sites had been pulled and I wanted the invoice settling.

So this is getting TLDR but basically I then spent another 6 weeks trying to get resolution and either being ignored or getting excuse type emails/ whatsapp messages saying how busy they has been, how they had to look after their elderly mother, thanking me for my patience as they owed me an email but that it would be best if I removed the invoice from my system as they didn't 'recognise' the amount and wouldn't be paying it but appreciated they owed me an explanation why. At no point did they give me an explanation.

Anyway after I basically said you have to pay or I will have to take it further they sent a very long email which basically said they didn't think the websites were good enough. That they liked them to begin with but when they later asked around and having got feedback from 'the team' (they have one employee that I delivered training to and seemed to really like the sites and how easy they were to update) and some customers (unnamed) that they felt I have mis sold the sites as being better for visitors and better for them as a team.

The visitor perspective examples they gave are very subjective and some are even about things that could be easily remedied in the bits of the site they can amend (amount of text on a page, headlines not being in all caps etc) and the rest are just opinions, not actual evidence of things being wrong. I am not inexperienced and have delivered dozens of websites in my career so I don't believe the sites are 'bad'.

So the gist from them is please drop this invoice as you don't deserve the money, do you want to jeopardise the relationship for a relatively small amount of money and we can continue with our valued relationship - a relationship which I do not want now at all!

I feel pretty manipulated to be honest but would value other people's perspectives on this. This final assessment of the sites not being good enough came almost a year after the first site was delivered and almost 6 after the last site was delivered and 4 months after the project was pulled.

and do I have a good case for small claims or similar? I am owed about £800. it's more about not letting them get away with it though.

thank you.

 

[fisicx]

Bills not paid so take down the websites. Lock them out and put up a splash page saying ‘outstanding invoice not paid’.

Then start small claims to get your money.

And don’t ever build a website again without a deposit and never go live until the rest is paid.

 

[Webgirl]

Bills not paid so take down the websites. Lock them out and put up a splash page saying ‘outstanding invoice not paid’.

Then start small claims to get your money.

And don’t ever build a website again without a deposit and never go live until the rest is paid.

thanks so much for replying, I usually take 50% up front and 50% as site goes live. the reason not this time was because of the deal and the payment terms - but totally appreciate your point. if they had just paid them as two separate sites that' what I would have done - it's annoying that because we agreed terms better for them that's how I have ended up out of pocket. I could take the sites down or lock them out but was worried that would make situation worse?

 

[fisicx]

How can it be any worse? They clearly aren’t going to pay so taking the sites down shows you aren’t a pushover. Putting up a page saying they ain’t paid is factual. Are you hosting the sites?

 

[Webgirl]

I arrange the hosting through a third party so it's possible for me to take the site down if I want to. do you think small claims or similar is worth it?

 

[Webgirl]

How can it be any worse? They clearly aren’t going to pay so taking the sites down shows you aren’t a pushover. Putting up a page saying they ain’t paid is factual. Are you hosting the sites?

I arrange the hosting through a third party so it's possible for me to take the site down if I want to. do you think small claims or similar is worth it? thanks for your thoughts. I try to be professional and also not do things that might give me a bad reputation but I do feel very manipulated. I don't really believe the reason they have given, i think they would have said at the point of pulling the projects if that was the reason or at least immediately that they got the invoice.

 

[fisicx]

Being professional also means standing up to bullying clients.

If they are Wordpress sites remove them as administrators and add a maintenance page. That way it’s easy to reinstate the site if they pay.

If they haven’t paid for hosting your case is even stronger.

 

[Webgirl]

Being professional also means standing up to bullying clients.

If they are Wordpress sites remove them as administrators and add a maintenance page. That way it’s easy to reinstate the site if they pay.

If they haven’t paid for hosting your case is even stronger.

you are right. and it does feel like I am being bullied. the email is a masterpiece in how to make me second guess myself and feel shit about my skills. it actually has a weirdly 'friendly' tone like they're telling me for my own good and trying to stop me making a mistake by pursuing payment and spoiling the relationship we have and jeopardising future work but I could never work with them again

 

[DontAsk]

So the gist from them is ... do you want to jeopardise the relationship for a relatively small amount of money and we can continue with our valued relationship -

That's just BS, They don't value you at all.

a relationship which I do not want now at all!

Indeed, so go ahead and "make it difficult" for them.

Secure the sites (i.e., remove their access) and then give them a few days to pay in full, or you will take the sites down.

Make sure any future contracts are clear that you retain ownership and control access until the client accepts the sites and invoices are paid in full.

 

[Webgirl]

That's just BS, They don't value you at all.


Indeed, so go ahead and "make it difficult" for them.

Secure the sites (i.e., remove their access) and then give them a few days to pay in full, or you will take the sites down.

Make sure any future contracts are clear that you retain ownership and control access until the client accepts the sites and invoices are paid in full.

the valued relationship stuff is pure manipulation I think too, I don't believe they care or would use me again anyway after I have put my foot down like this as I can tell they are a bit shocked. I just removed their access to the sites as they need one of them soon and it will be very inconvenient to not be able to add content for their new product. My last email says I require payment by the end of today or I will be taking steps to make them pay via courts.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Send a 14 day LBA - signed-for. Their response to that may well inform your next steps. Mention in the LBA that you can & will take the site down pending resolution.

 

[Webgirl]

Send a 14 day LBA - signed-for. Their response to that may well inform your next steps. Mention in the LBA that you can & will take the site down pending resolution.

thank you, I gave them until the end of today to pay in my last email which briefly answered their email about their supposed dissatisfaction and reiterated my claim for the funds as per the original price quote etc. if they don't pay then i think I'll revoke admin access and let them know that that has been done in response to their non payment for part of each site.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

I agree with the others - take the sites down, assuming you have the right to. Bet that will sharpen them up. Will be funny to see if they then complain because you have taken them down, considering they said they're not happy with them...

 

[Webgirl]

I agree with the others - take the sites down, assuming you have the right to. Bet that will sharpen them up. Will be funny to see if they then complain because you have taken them down, considering they said they're not happy with them...

ha good point they will just say that they need the site as any site is better than no site, you know those people who very much can argue any side of anything! thanks Lisa

 

[Ozzy]

put up a splash page saying ‘outstanding invoice not paid’.

This part I would advise against, as it could be used against you. Just a blank page or a 404 will be fine, but not a message saying 'outstanding debt' or stuff like that.

Send a 14 day LBA - signed-for. Their response to that may well inform your next steps. Mention in the LBA that you can & will take the site down pending resolution.

This, as Lisa also says above. Stick to a straightforward and formal process.

 

[Mark T Jones]

thank you, I gave them until the end of today to pay in my last email which briefly answered their email about their supposed dissatisfaction and reiterated my claim for the funds as per the original price quote etc. if they don't pay then i think I'll revoke admin access and let them know that that has been done in response to their non payment for part of each site.

By all means do that - but the courts like to see evidence of process, and (in my opinion) won't view a one-day payment window as suitable.

Take the site down and issue an LBA - in reality, the courts are taking ages so it won't really matter if it's 7 day, 14 day or 30 day.

With regards to ongoing business, they are no longer a customer, they are a debtor - all ongoing discounts are off the table.

 

[Webgirl]

This part I would advise against, as it could be used against you. Just a blank page or a 404 will be fine, but not a message saying 'outstanding debt' or stuff like that.


This, as Lisa also says above. Stick to a straightforward and formal process.

thank you. I agree with this, I wouldn't want to do that as it's just not me. I have stayed very unemotional in my responses and been very business like, not getting drawn into their drama and feelings etc. I just remembered my FSB membership will get me dome free legal advice so I'll call them tomorrow. I fI need to do the LBAs etc I will do them to keep it all linear. thanks again!

 

[Webgirl]

By all means do that - but the courts like to see evidence of process, and (in my opinion) won't view a one-day payment window as suitable.

Take the site down and issue an LBA - in reality, the courts are taking ages so it won't really matter if it's 7 day, 14 day or 30 day.

With regards to ongoing business, they are no longer a customer, they are a debtor - all ongoing discounts are off the table.

I like that last line, thank you

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I have a client that I have worked with for a few years.

What work was you doing for them that they were happy with?

 

[WaveJumper]

Well it seems everyone is singing from the same song sheet here ........ take down the site or sites there is no relationship there never really was, they have played you. Put up those "site under maintenance" pages today

And don't forget to update the forum on their reaction / outcome

 

[Webgirl]

What work was you doing for them that they were happy with?

everything previously, design for print, for digital stuff, event dressing like banners, a huge welcome desk, a polish of their existing brand. they actually loved the two websites I did at the time and were very happy. they now say that it's other people that have convinced them the sites are not good and their 'team' which feels off as I haven't had any negative feedback from anyone who works with them and the training went well, their staff member who would be responsible for the updating of the sites said the updates were easy. they also didn't give me this feedback until most 4 months after the invoice was due.

 

[Webgirl]

Well it seems everyone is singing from the same song sheet here ........ take down the site or sites there is no relationship there never really was, they have played you. Put up those "site under maintenance" pages today

And don't forget to update the forum on their reaction / outcome

I think there is something going on that I don't know about. Up to this point other than being very chaotic etc they have been ok to work with. it feels like they didn't want to go ahead with the remaining sites and felt like they could just end it there, then once we had explained the legitimacy of the final invoice they go quiet for ages and then this is the final sucker punch. your work wasn't good enough. it feels off.

 

[fisicx]

However… whatever is going on internally in the company is irrelevant. They haven’t paid you which means the sites should now be in maintenance mode. If not, why are you prevaricating?

 

[Webgirl]

However… whatever is going on internally in the company is irrelevant. They haven’t paid you which means the sites should now be in maintenance mode. If not, why are you prevaricating?

I'm not, I am just replying to the previous person who asked a question, just to say I don't think it's genuinely about the quality of the work and also they didn't express dissatisfaction at the time so what they think now, months down the line isn't relevant really. I am speaking with FSB legal help line today and will be getting a solicitor to draft the appropriate letters. I have also restricted their access to the sites now so they can't update them. This will cause them issues as they are trying to launch a new product.

 

[fisicx]

Not enough. Put the sites in maintenance mode. They have had free marketing since you built the sites. End that today.

Have they paid for hosting?

 

[Webgirl]

Not enough. Put the sites in maintenance mode. They have had free marketing since you built the sites. End that today.

Have they paid for hosting?

urgh, also complicated. the original package price which they effectively dropped by not completing the remaining sites had free hosting in. The new invoice that is the adjusted fee plus things that were free but now I want them to pay for like hosting and training hasn't been paid so no, they haven't paid for hosting.

 

[Webgirl]

Not enough. Put the sites in maintenance mode. They have had free marketing since you built the sites. End that today.

Have they paid for hosting?

to be honest I am concerned about reputation. the owner of the business is well connected and we have lots of people in common. I don't want to give him a sob story that he can use against me

 

[Mark T Jones]

I'm not, I am just replying to the previous person who asked a question, just to say I don't think it's genuinely about the quality of the work and also they didn't express dissatisfaction at the time so what they think now, months down the line isn't relevant really. I am speaking with FSB legal help line today and will be getting a solicitor to draft the appropriate letters. I have also restricted their access to the sites now so they can't update them. This will cause them issues as they are trying to launch a new product.

Yes, speak with the FSB helpline - don't pay for Legals though an LBA is very straightforward

For perspective id suggest that they liked you when it was cheap and easy, but there was never a real business rapport.

As soon as things changed (who knows? Found someone cheaper? Cashflow crisis?) You quickly slipped off the radar.

It isn't nice, but it is the difference between a solid business relationship and a price-led one

 

[Webgirl]

Yes, speak with the FSB helpline - don't pay for Legals though an LBA is very straightforward

For perspective id suggest that they liked you when it was cheap and easy, but there was never a real business rapport.

As soon as things changed (who knows? Found someone cheaper? Cashflow crisis?) You quickly slipped off the radar.

It isn't nice, but it is the difference between a solid business relationship and a price-led one

thanks for that advice around the letter. I think it's a mixture of cashflow and arrogance. this person whilst always friendly etc has always sought to make the point that they are giving me 'a lot of work' and therefore asking for discounts etc and when they wrote their mega email as to why they feel justified in ignoring the last invoice, they told me how much money they have spent with me over the last 4 years and suggested I don't want to jeopardise that for a few hundred pounds. I think they were shocked to get the invoice and are now seeking reasons as to why they don't want to pay. if they decided back in November that the two sites weren't good enough and they don't want to proceed for that reason, why not say then? it's just strange behaviour really. They had had a lot of opportunity to talk to me about this that they haven't taken. I also think that even if they DO not now like the websites for whatever reason, you can't just not pay for them at the prices quoted if they met the brief and you were happy at the time. if it were not for this package deal they would have already been paid for months ago at the point of the sites going live.

 

[Mark T Jones]

thanks for that advice around the letter. I think it's a mixture of cashflow and arrogance. this person whilst always friendly etc has always sought to make the point that they are giving me 'a lot of work' and therefore asking for discounts etc and when they wrote their mega email as to why they feel justified in ignoring the last invoice, they told me how much money they have spent with me over the last 4 years and suggested I don't want to jeopardise that for a few hundred pounds. I think they were shocked to get the invoice and are now seeking reasons as to why they don't want to pay. if they decided back in November that the two sites weren't good enough and they don't want to proceed for that reason, why not say then? it's just strange behaviour really. They had had a lot of opportunity to talk to me about this that they haven't taken. I also think that even if they DO not now like the websites for whatever reason, you can't just not pay for them at the prices quoted if they met the brief and you were happy at the time. if it were not for this package deal they would have already been paid for months ago at the point of the sites going live.

Keep it simple. Keep emotion out of it (easier said than done, but that's business)

You have a multi-year relationship where both parties have benefited.

The basis of that relationship has now changed - permanently* for whatever reason.

You haven't been paid for work done, so are looking to recoup what your are owed - plus legitimate expenses.

You will use the legal means available to you to recover what you are owed.

End of.

* There is a small chance of a fairy-tail ending, where this little spat cements a stronger commercial relationship - and a 99% chance that it is the break point you need to move on, learn lessons and build your business on a more professional footing.

 

[fisicx]

to be honest I am concerned about reputation. the owner of the business is well connected and we have lots of people in common. I don't want to give him a sob story that he can use against me

How much do you rely on local work? You could make this work in your favour. You can tell the story on your website about how you were shafted by a local business. Tell your story before they have a chance to throw their toys out the pram. Then share on SM and tell all your friends.

 

[pentel]

You have 2 choices:

1) remove access to the sites for your customer, send them a letter before action ( 14 days) and if not paid put the sites on maintenance. Once you have done this then take action.

2) forget about getting paid and move on.

Make whichever choice you want to, but be committed to that decision.

 

[FreddyG]

I arrange the hosting through a third party so it's possible for me to take the site down if I want to. do you think small claims or similar is worth it?

If you take the site down, that could make making a claim more difficult - though you would be justified in putting a lien against the site.

My 30 cents worth would be to follow @fisicx and @Mark T Jones advice, LBA, small claim action and move on.

 

[Webgirl]

Apparently legally I don't have a case because even though I quoted for the sites separately alongside the deal, I don't have evidence that he understood that if the fuill package wasn't delivered that I revert back to the original individual costs, we did discuss this but it isn't in writing.

 

[Newchodge]

thanks for that advice around the letter. I think it's a mixture of cashflow and arrogance. this person whilst always friendly etc has always sought to make the point that they are giving me 'a lot of work' and therefore asking for discounts etc and when they wrote their mega email as to why they feel justified in ignoring the last invoice, they told me how much money they have spent with me over the last 4 years and suggested I don't want to jeopardise that for a few hundred pounds. I think they were shocked to get the invoice and are now seeking reasons as to why they don't want to pay. if they decided back in November that the two sites weren't good enough and they don't want to proceed for that reason, why not say then? it's just strange behaviour really. They had had a lot of opportunity to talk to me about this that they haven't taken. I also think that even if they DO not now like the websites for whatever reason, you can't just not pay for them at the prices quoted if they met the brief and you were happy at the time. if it were not for this package deal they would have already been paid for months ago at the point of the sites going live.

I would stop worrying about their motivatiion, just get on with dealing with them appropriately.

 

[Newchodge]

Apparently legally I don't have a case because even though I quoted for the sites separately alongside the deal, I don't have evidence that he understood that if the fuill package wasn't delivered that I revert back to the original individual costs, we did discuss this but it isn't in writing.

I never did like FSB legal advice.

 

[Webgirl]

I never did like FSB legal advice.

on what basis? I have an old lawyer friend that I am going to try and get a call with this afternoon to double check the FSB advice.

 

[Webgirl]

I would stop worrying about their motivatiion, just get on with dealing with them appropriately.

I'm not that worried about their motivation tbh. Just answering people's questions. I think I have to just assume either they are a. rdiculous or b. manipulative and dishonest. either way doesn't change the facts. It's disappointing that the FSB didn't think I had a case though. I know we agreed this verbally and I assumed (wrongly) that if we had presented non package costs that it's obvious they would stand but it seems not.

 

[Newchodge]

on what basis? I have an old lawyer friend that I am going to try and get a call with this afternoon to double check the FSB advice.

I would suggest the FSB advice may be fair if this were a supply to a customer rather than to a business. A business is not expected to need every little detail spelled out. This is the price for 1 website, this is the deal for 5, is perfectly clear that if 5 are not bought, the price is the per website one.

 

[FreddyG]

Did they put or confirm the deal in an email? If so, that would probably do, depending on the wording.